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Anonymous Poster

Motor Breakers

02/23/2010 2:51 AM

We have a Siemens Motor of 75 KW, The main breaker for this Motor is ASEA 190 A

This is a fan Motor of 3000 rpm. There is a damper for this fan, Motor will start in Damper clossed position for reducing starting current. It is starting by star delta.It is starange that If the damper is in clossed position starting current is less and when it changing to star to delta the breaker is tripping. If we keep the damper in full open position and, If we will start this motor, motor is taking high ampere for starting and breaker not tripping. Why it is happening like this, can any one give an answer

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Guru
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#1

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/23/2010 2:59 AM

The best way to pull current in a motor is to give it some work to do. Th epower for any fluid mover is the product of the pressure gain and the volumetric flowrate. Does this give any clues as to why the motor starts with the damper closed?

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Guru
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#2

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/23/2010 3:33 AM

This scenario might be a bit tricky, because of some interacting variables. For instance, if the dampers open shortly before the starter switches from star to delta, you may slam the motor with a large load.

Each of these two strategies (star-delta starting, closed dampers on start) is reasonable, but certain timing combinations may cause them to clash, so to speak.

Just guessing roughly, I would try to optimize the star-delta transition time delay, and make sure it occurred before opening the dampers.

Before thinking of soft starters or VFDs (which might be useful for other reasons as well), I would look into these timing issues. It sounds as though you have already discovered a sequence for successful starting.

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Anonymous Poster
#3
In reply to #2

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/23/2010 5:49 AM

SIR

I FOUND A SEQUENCE OF STARTING BUT I AM NOT HAPPEY WITH THE HIGH STARTING CURRENT TO THE STATOR WINDING, IT CAN HARM THE INSULATION OF MOTOR AND IT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE MOTOR , I THINK THIS BREAKER IS TRIPPING BY HIGH INRUSH CURRENT, IF IT IS LIKE THAT, CAN I CHANGE THE RATING OF BREAKER , YOUR VALUABLE REPLY IS APPRECIABLE

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Guru
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#4
In reply to #3

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/23/2010 10:50 AM

You will need to check local codes for what is permitted. If I remember correctly, for 480/3/60 the code FLA of a 75-hp motor is 96, and the breaker can be 225% of that, or the next higher rating. 96 x 2.25 = 216; next size is 225A.

It would be interesting to have a current-vs-time graph over the starting period of this motor. If possible, avoid frequent starts/stops.

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Anonymous Poster
#10
In reply to #4

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/27/2010 5:45 AM

It is a 380 v/ 3phase/ 50 cycles, Then what must be the breaker rating for this 75 kw 3000 rpm motor

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/27/2010 6:55 PM

96 FLA x 480/380 ≈ 121.3 A; 121.3 x 2.25 ≈ 273 A; next breaker size is 275 A (I think, but it might be 300 A). More to the point, find out what the local codes require, and what increments are available in breakers/fuses. I don't know if the current multipliers for breakers/fuses depend on the frequency.

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Guru
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#5
In reply to #3

Re: MOTOR BREAKERS

02/23/2010 12:07 PM

Check that the motor is operating inside its full-load-current when it gets up to full speed.

The motor insulation could be damaged if the current is so great that the motor runs very hot before it comes up to speed, which is when the current reduces to the full-load-current. If that is the case then it is possible that the motor is undersized. If the motor is undersized, then probably so is the supply cable, the motor overload protection device, the supply fuses and possibly the upstream supply as well.

Please turn off Caps Lock and review the installation before proceeding further.

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#6

Re: Motor Breakers

02/23/2010 7:39 PM

A common reason for breakers to trip in Star-Delta starting is a transition spike. There is a natural phase shift when you go from star to delta and if the line sine wave is in just the wrong spot when you transition, there is a moment when the motor power is out of phase with the line power, and a very brief current spike of up to 2000% FLA is theoretically possible. This can sometimes trip the circuit breaker's instantaneous (magnetic) trip elements.

But why would that not take place with the dampers open? because you are loading the motor more and there is more slip, so when the transition happens, the motor's field is collapsing at a different rate, one that is less incompatible with the line.

A simple trick you can try before giving up on Star-Delta (which is what I would do however) is to "roll" the conductors on the Star or Delta contactor. Rolling means you change the position of the conductors without changing the relative phase rotation sequence. For example, move A to B, B to C and C to A. This takes advantage od minor differences in the motor winding resistances to change that phase shift just a minute amount, which is often enough to make a difference.

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Anonymous Poster
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Motor Breakers

02/27/2010 5:35 AM

Sir,

If I am rolling the conductors of star contactors means the incomming conductors of the contactor

which is coming from the motor to the star contactor has to change from position 1 to 2, 2 to 3 and 3 to 1 , Is it correct

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#7

Re: Motor Breakers

02/24/2010 6:35 AM

Dear friend,

Kindly check the motor starter schematic diagram on how the damper and the fan motor are sequence to each other. The star-delta motor starter might be integrated with a microcontroller/microprocessor, or other sequencing device that modulate the opening of the damper with respect to the motor speed or full-load current of the motor as an input to it. The damper has an auxilliary contacts (normally closed and normally open) that is also used as input or alarm trigerring device for the microprocessor, to give an open command to the main breaker if this alarms exist to an unacceptable level.

These speculations are just given to you to checkout your motor starter schematic diagram to further study it and find an answer why your control system is malfuntioning.

I hope this simple idea of mine will give you some idea about your question.

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#8

Re: Motor Breakers

02/24/2010 10:38 AM

I feel the time duration is required for star connection is less. Pls check the time when the motor gains 80% i.e. 2400 rpm of the rated speed and then allow it to go to delta mode. I hope your problem will be solved.

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