Clips for Square Tubes

How about this. Install properly spaced screws under the deck, leaving a space between the head of the screw and the deck bottom that matches the wall thickness of the tube. Add 1 or 2 key hole shaped slots in one side of the tube to fit the screw spacing and then slip the tube over the screw head/s for storage.

I like it, but I don't think it will work for this application:

I've got a 4' wide 8' tall 18" deep shelf stacked stem to stern with these legs, that makes for a lot of drilling that needs to be fairly accurate and I don't have a labor pool.

I don't think the boss would approve of drilling holes in the legs

GA nonetheless

The second paragraph confuses me. First sentence implies you want to store cut steel.

Steel does have weight so some of what you can do depends on how much weight you intend to hang.

Are there floor joists holding up the plywood deck?

Could you not drill holes in them and run through steel pipe to make a place to put the steel leg materiel?

There is also angle steel with holes in it you could put together.

A metal cut blade on a hand skill saw will cut it and nuts and bolts would put it together.

I thought of eyebolts through the deck floor, but rejected that as problematic, and possibly prone to creating a floor hazard, or ripping out.

I thought of the sort of materials they use to hang pipes, strapping with bolt holes, but then remembered that channel they use to hang garage door openers.

If I saw a picture of the problem I'd be better at the suggestions.

Crossed my mind you made stages for shows that stagehands had to set up.

Steel does have weight so some of what you can do depends on how much weight you intend to hang.

It is aluminum tube, the largest of which is 2-5/16" x 24" and weighs in at something less than 5 lbs (at a guess), there would be 4 - 6 of each leg length (8", 16" and 24") so the weight is relatively insignificant even though it is not non-existent.

To the rest:

The platforms themselves are a 4' x 8' rectangle framed out in tube aluminum roughly the same size as the legs (with cross members at center) with a 3/4" plywood deck on top. I can't put anything through the deck as it would be underfoot and unsightly, but into the underside is fine.

I like the angle steel idea, I'm leaning basically that way at the moment but still holding out hope for an 'elegant' solution (whatever that means , I think it means lazy but I could be wrong)

there's not much to picture, a rectangle with a cross-members from the center of each side to the center of the opposing side (no diagonals) and a sheet of 3/4" ply on top. The legs slide into slots in the frame and are held inplace by a cam operated by allen wrench. I'll see if I can't get a camera on it for you though.

I should probably have made it more clear that these are platforms for making stages.

Yeah, I'd sort of have to see it to do more than I have.

I can understand that, thanks

OK, glue steel plates/disks/washers/magnets under the deck and glue magnets inside the ends of the square tubing. Then stick it.

elegant... I'm not giving you a GA for it though

Never mind. It finally sunk in that you are building a stage. Like, for performers and speakers and weight. So, you'd have more than one in the corners and one in the middle. And you'd have potentially 3 sets of legs for each platform.

Thanks for the GA. But not practical with that many legs.

Is this out of the question?

Road cases

Cheers! I'm outta beer.

nice road cases...

They would work, but then I'd have to find a place to store them... storage is at a premium here which is a major factor in my desire to attach the legs to the platforms (that and because each is basically useless without the other)

The image in my head is something like the mop or broom holder, the clip for the handle. Is that the sort of thing you have in mind?

If so, will this projecting clip interfere with storage / transport of you stage?

If this projection will interfere, how about those gravity 'S' type hooks, still on the mop handle idea.. Will fall down for use when platform is horizontal, and be in plane with the stage when folded?

You don't want these things getting loose in transport. I'm a bungee cord nut, can't have enough. Fit the cords through the legs and find somewhere to hook the ends. A drilled hole somewhere under the stage will do. To get fancy and permanent, use cable and snap hooks. You can have one end of the cable permanently attached to the stage, and the snap the end back in the hole when not in use. Gimmie my prize.

OK hairlesssimian -- Let's see if I've got this right. These platforms have three lengths of removable legs. The platforms themselves are of 3/4 inch plywood attached to a rectangular aluminum tube frame that has one cross brace of the same size connecting the long sides of the frame at the center of each so as to provide load support for the middle area of the plywood top.

You would like to be able to store the legs attached to the underside of the platform rather than storing them (and presumably transporting them to the performance site) separately Perhaps you would like to match the length of the legs with specific platforms. Or maybe you want the flexibility of setting up any single platform with one of three different leg lengths. In the latter case you would accept the added weight of extra legs stored underneath as long as they do not affect the utility or safety of the platform under operational conditions.

You indicate that the frame members are approximately the same size square tubes as the legs.

OK for each platform you will provide the following:

1. Two threaded rods each 16 inches long by 3/8 diameter. Most convenient material to make these rods out of is 3/8-16 "all thread" or an equivalent threaded rod material.

2. Two 3/8-16 standard hex nuts, two 3/8-16 elastic stop nuts (a locking type that is very reliable), four flat washers and two spring lock lockwashers.

For the entire job you will need:

1. Two pieces of flat steel 16 inches long that you will make into drill jigs. You will drill two 13/32" diameter holes, 8 inches apart 1-7/32" from the long side of one steel strip. You will do the same on the second strip except the distance from the side of the strip will be less at 1-5/32". The first jig will be used for drilling the cross braces of the platform frames. Use your sharpie pen to write the following in the space between the edge of the jig and the holes where you measures 1-7/32": THIS SIDE AGAINST PLATFORM TOP. The second jig will be used to drill the legs. You will get the best fits on the final assembly of legs to table frame if you can clamp these two jigs together at exactly the right dimensions and drill both jigs together for each of the two holes. That way it won't matter that the two holes in all the legs and platform cross members are not a perfect 8 inched apart. Everything will still fit together because all the hole spacings will be the same. Use the sharpie pen to write on both faces of this jig in the space between the holes and the side you measured 1-5/32": FORLEGS ONLY. ALIGN THIS EDGE WITH EDGE OF LEG.

2. At least two 3" C-clamps or two small cabinet maker's clamps to hold the drill jig in place.

3. A reasonably powerful cordless or corded drill with a chuck that will accept a 13/32" drill. (some 3/8 drill chucks will; all 1/2" chucks will.

4 At least two new high speed steel 13/32 drills.

5. A minimum 4" vise, table mounted, or two 6 inch "C" or cabinetmaker's clamps so you can clamp the legs to be drilled to a sturdy table top.

6. A tape measure or good yardstick and a sharpie marking pen.

7. two 4" long pieces of 3/8-16 threaded rod to be used when you attach them to the drill jig and check all the table legs on them after drilling to verify that they fit.

8. A flat file (fine cut preferred) or a belt sander or grinder to debur the sawed edges of the of the threaded rod so nuts will fit on and there won't be sharp edges. You may also need to file burrs off the back sides of the 13/32 holes where the drill breaks through.

9. An extra box of 3/8-16 standard nuts, a box of lockwashers and a box of flat washers. These can be found in good hardware stores in boxes of 50 or 100. These will go along in your field operations kit along with at least five 9/16open end wrenches or 6 inch crescent wrenches, a collection of hex wrenches for attaching legs to the platforms and a couple of spare 16" threaded rods with elastic stop nuts already installed ( or bring a set of vise grip pliers along also.) And it wouldn't hurt to put one of those two 13/32 drills and a 3/8 rat tail file in there also.

Drill a few of the legs first as described above with the second jig clamped on. Space the holes the same distance from each end of the leg. Drill the center brace of the platform frame as described above with the 2 hole pattern at the approximate center of the length of the brace. If you used the jig properly (like you marked it) there will be enough clearance for the legs to fit in place with clearance and without jamming even though we weren't able to do everything with "machine shop" precision. Check how everything fits together; maybe even set up one of the jigs with the 4" threaded rods and nuts

Transporting the platforms in a vibrating truck cargo area may cause some loosening of the standard nuts on the rods. If that gets to be a problem it may be necessary to file small flats in the thread on the side of the threaded rod to allow you to drill a 1/8 diameter hole through that will accept a hitch pin clip to keep the nut from falling off. A really nice job would include short cables to attach each clip to a frame tube with a pop rivet. This is likely more trouble then it's worth unless you think you can do away with the nuts to speed up the setup and takedown process.

This is the way I'd do it all. ..........Ed Weldon

Boy, this sounds like a good idea!

I'll give you one here... we will wait to see if HS thinks so as well.

You got my GA also.

GA!! Less work than my suggestion. But you may find that 2 inch wide industrial strength velcro is a bit pricey. Just make sure the Velcro is firmly attached to whatever surface it's placed on. You may not want to rely on just the adhesive backing on the Velcro especially on the ends where it would be first to start tearing off. Pop rivets throught the metal may be needed or short flathead screws if it is to be attached to the plywood. Remember in use and through transport and multiple set up and take down cycles by untrained stage help that these things are going to take a beating.

Velcro gets frequent use in our Land Speed vehicles to attach roll cage padding. the adhesive backing is stuck to the painted steel of the roll cage bars. Most guys doing that end up with tie wraps on each end of the pads, especially the ones in the area of the driver's helmet that are constantly pushed around when the driver enters and exits the car.

Ed Weldon

I like your answer, but will add this: Why not screw velcro straps to the plywood and then use these straps to capture the tubes. Then you're not relying on adhesive. The straps are easy to replace.

We are big fans of velcro here... this is basically what I plan to do if I don't find some pre-fab wonder grabber...

BTW, Good Answer

How about someting like the brackets you screw on a wall that they hang shovels , brooms, etc. Use 2 for each tube. They spread when you insert the pipe and close to grip it. I think some are made of spring steel and have little rubber wheels to help hold the item. Just a thought............Rescue

If you know where I can find such a thing a might kiss you... tongue, no tongue... your choice...

crimich --

These spring loaded slide bolts look pretty good. They could be mounted on the square frame tube but you'd have to drill and tap a lot of holes especially if each platform had to be equipped for all three sixes of legs. More practically they could be attached to the underside of the 3/4 plywood deck with 3/4" long phillips pan head screws that could be driven home with a cordless drill. Much faster.

Problem with this setup is that you'd have to have a separate set slide bolts and tabs for each length of legs you wanted to carry. That's 12 slides and 12 tabs for each platform.

The other problem has to do with the tabs. No standard "out of the catalog" piece of hardware for this function comes to my mind. Some kind of little "Z" bracket with two mounting holes on one leg of the "Z"? Or just use two slide bolts for each leg. May need some creative thinking here.

Suppose we could design a single thick galvanized sheet steel bracket with three tabs, one for each length of leg? Design it so that one slide bolt could be positioned for all three tab positions. Now that would be four of these brackets and four slide bolts per platform. If hairlesssimian has 12 platforms that makes 48 brackets. This is a reasonable order size for a hungry sheet metal fabrication shop whose CNC turret punches are sitting idle. Keep the design simple and you might get them for $15 each at that quantity. Maybe tell the shop what you want the part to do and have them figure out the easiest way to make the bracket. They'll likely come up with a design that can be done with the punch tools already in their inventory. Have the shop quote and order the slide bolts, too. They may be able to get a good wholesale price on them.

Ed Weldon

I think we need more input from HS.

Is this along the lines of what your looking for?

That's a pretty good idea.

Off the top of my head I come up with a few different ways to make this idea very workable.

The hardware will certainly cost more than some velcro; of course you are correct that I would need to worry about legs slipping out of a 'side grab' clip (and I include velcro in that category) so I would need to add some sort of a stop block anyway. With this route I eliminate the stop block because it's built in, and I get a definite increase in efficiency over the other systems that have come up because I should be able to simply click the legs into place, and there won't be velcro hanging off the bottom of my platforms getting stuck to the carpet and covered in fuzz...

Definite GA for Crimich!

GA, Trancendian -- The voice of real experience counts for a lot. If I've learned anything in a technical career spanning 42 years its to listen to folks who have "been there and done that".

Ed Weldon

One last comment, and this is as good a place as any to make it:

My friends, its been just a year for me on CR-4 and with this commentary, 1000 posts. I've learned a lot, gotten some good writing practice and even some opportunities to relearn some old stuff; in order that I wouldn't make a complete fool out of myself when answering a question.

I think I've helped a few people here, hopefully more than I've irritated with my opinions and long winded commentaries.

It's been fun and I think I even made a few friends. But I'm facing some to-do's that need attention and that's going to mean less time on the computer. Besides, I'm starting to repeat myself and don't want to overstay my welcome.

So I'm going into a quiet "lurker" mode for a while. I'll still stay a member; but I will probably miss a lot of the daily digests. Meantime I will read and try to reply to any emails that I receive. I'm just going to resist getting into actual on-line replies and lengthy discussions.

Good luck to all and I'll be back when things slow down a bit over on my side of the mountain.

Ed Weldon

Seems often for your height types the legs did fold out in ways similar to card tables, though of course much stronger.

Our platforms are just about as simple a design as you could conceive, the legs quite literally slide into a receiving slot in the bottom that has a cam to squeeze onto the leg and hold it in position.

Often such things did come on rolling carts.

What's your competition do? Will what you do fit on a rolling cart?

Could the cart have a belly shelf box for the legs?

We do have them on carts, there isn't really room on the carts to attach anything, certainly not as big a box/shelf as would be required. We don't really have competitors to compare to, we are a venue and no two are the same.

Otherwise the velcro suggestion, or even riveted straps sound doable.

Agreed, but the velcro option is relatively slow, as you know time is a critical component of our everyday in the entertainment biz. Lacking a better solution, Velcro will be the big winner; though I think Crimich13 has led me down the right path.

Use of road cases is not all that uncommon.

We don't have storage room for the necessary roadboxes.

For many stages the frame goes up, and the flooring is set in separately.

These don't have a seperate 'frame', just decks and simple legs.

P.S. I am those that use the equipment... and yes, I did check with me for my suggestions... I just didn't have any really good ones

How about hose clamps. Screw the hose clamp to the underside of the stage, right in the middle leaving the two ends free. You can loosen the clamps and slide your tubes round or square in and out.