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New Power Source - AC Battery

04/28/2010 9:09 PM

Is an AC battery possible? If so, would there be any advantage?

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#1

Re: New power source?

04/28/2010 10:26 PM

If I were to charge a large capacitor to its full capacity and put it on a shelf for a few hours and then connected it to an inductor and put my load between the the two wouldn't my load see an AC voltage? Likewise with an inductor?

I guess it would depend on how you defined - "battery"

Gavilan

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#2

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/29/2010 12:48 AM

A battery of electro chemical cells can not produce AC. However it can provide power to a device such as an inverter that will produce AC. As with most things there are advantages and disadvantages.

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#3

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/29/2010 12:52 AM

Is this the rotating battery with commutator? Or the cakewalk electrolyte?

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#4

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/29/2010 7:56 AM

...or an alternator coupled to a super-high-inertia flywheel?

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#27
In reply to #4

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

06/07/2010 12:46 PM

I was going to suggest this. I've heard stories of such a storage device, but I can't remember where or what.

I did see a very old punch press with a huge flywhell on it. Apparently it took a few minutes to get the flywheel up to speed, then it was clutched onto the shaft that drove the punch. All that energy was delivered in an instant. Quarter inch steel plate? No problem!

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#5

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/29/2010 10:04 AM
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#6

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/29/2010 6:05 PM

What about a battery attached to a large spring, as it bounces up and down you could put two conectors one way round at the top and the other way round at the bottom. That would do it

hehehe

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#7

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/29/2010 11:44 PM

Ronseto,

Intriguing thought. There would be a huge advantage to an AC battery in that it could be connected directly to a transformer.

The internals of such a battery would have to be a lot different and busier than what we are used to. Electron flow would have to go one direction until some threshold was reached, then reverse until a similar threshold in the other direction. Some plating mechanism possibly, which would plate briefly, then plate in the other direction.

Dave

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#8

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 12:28 AM

YES, AC battery is possible. nothing is impossible to willing heart. i give you an example.... we are concerned of output only not the internal mechanism so if DC is converted into AC and the whole assembly is in one package just like a dc battery then it must be called AC battery. its charging must be as via charger which must convert AC into DC. After all you people are aware of working of generator. we can get AC as well as DC from the same generator, what we have to do is change the position of point from which we get output..

thanks and best regards,

Baqir Gillani

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 6:32 AM

Sounds like a UPS

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 1:19 PM

NO if you use an inverter or dc to dc converter its somthing else poss a ups.

the question was is there such a thing as an ac battery that is the battery itself producing ac without inverters etc.

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#25
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Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

05/02/2010 11:13 PM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post #25

This post was deleted because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ about rules for posting.

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#9

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 12:30 AM

"AC" is alternating current. That is, for some given time period, current "flows" in one direction, then for another given time period (usually equal to the first, but not necessarily so), current "flows" in the other direction. Int this sense, all batteries are "Alternating" with a discharge cycle and a charge cycle (at a very, very low frequency, so that one gets the impression it is DC). The problem is, one needs a driver for the charge cycle...

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#11

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 9:09 AM

In the proper vocab use there is no such thing as AC battery.

You want to call an inverter/converter or a UPS, that (both) have a normal DC battery at heart, an AC battery because it converts the DC to AC, then apply for the patent on a new Vocabular or Wording or whatever! But don't reinvent the wheel and call it something else.

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#13

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 2:18 PM

Living systems act like ac sources. The heart is controlled by it's natural pacemaker which cycles on and off to cause contraction and relaxation of the heart. There are also the alpha, delta, theta, etc. rhythms of the brain. The buffering action in bodily fluids like blood utilizing carbonic acid as it oscillates between acid/base condition. Surely someone can apply these principles to develop an ac battery...

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 2:33 PM

Spielberg or Disney?

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 2:43 PM

But the main question you need to answer first is why ! would you want an AC battery

using the heart is not a very analogy by the way the heart is purley an end user much like a compressor

the reason i ask why AC there is a lot of things that use DC.

In fact as technology gets smaller the will less need for ac equipment.

So i again say why bother even trying to make a battry that produces AC

there is equipment that converts with great efficency DC to AC for the few bits of equipment that uses AC

you try it list all the things that need DC and then list the items that use AC

And dont include Televisions because they run on dc thats been converted from AC

The main advantage of AC is the transmission of electricity over great distances

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 3:44 PM

The original question was "is it possible?" Not, "do we need one?" Throwing diversions in front of an investigative hypothetical doesn't advance the intellectual exercise which this question engendered. At it's genesis a novel idea is a fragile thing, it can easily be destroyed and derailed by critique based on ideas of the "current central dogma". Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, to name just a few, were ridiculed berated and punished for their upstart ideas which didn't jibe with then-current thinking.

Also your statement: "using the heart is not a very analogy by the way the heart is purley an end user much like a compressor" - I didn't refer to the heart as the source of pulsations but rather the pacemaker.

You find what you look for.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 4:32 PM

well there i ve learnt something new about the heart, but the muscles rely on the bundle of fibres called the SA node, they generate the signals the heart needs to work, ie the heart is an end user in that itself doesn't generate the signals these come from the SA node so i am still right the main part of the heart the muscles are in fact end users.

as this is a free speech discussion i am entitled to my opinion's as are you.

I was simply meaning that what would be the point of making something for which there is no need ? if there was a need then by all means make one, But to me its seems a waste of time even thinking about making something that is really obsolete even before its made.

as for throwing in diversion you make it sound like it was an intentional effort on my part that i took it on myself to derail the topic, that is an insult to me, as i had no intension of derailing your pointless topic.

but if i am not allowed to comment, would you please start the topic with.

"UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL ANYONE FORWARD REMARKS THAT DO NOT FULFILL THE AIMS OF THIS TOPIC"

I WILL THEN STAY WELL AWAY FROM YOU !!

HAVE A NICE DAY.

TAKEN FROM ANOTHER SITE

The pacemaker of the heart is a bundle of cells that tells the heart when to beat. These cells are connected to the rest of the cells of the heart and communicate with them through electrical signals. The pacemaker cells set the pace (or rate) of the heartbeat.

The actual structure that serves as the heart's primary pacemaker is called the sinoatrial node (SA node). As described above, the SA node is a little bundle of cells located in the wall of the right atrium, the small upper chamber on the right side of the heart.

What if the SA node is knocked out for some reason? There are actually other regions of the heart that can act as pacemakers. These regions are known as latent pacemakers and include the atrioventricular node (AV node) and other cells that make up the electrical communication system of the heart (including special cells that make up the so-called Purkinje fibers of the heart). Even the cells that make up the large ventricles of the heart can set the pace of the heart.

Interestingly, each of the pacemakers described above has a different inherent rate that it "wants" the heart to beat at. For example, the SA node gets excited spontaneously at a rate of about 100 per minute. Some of the latent pacemakers might spontaneously get excited at a rate of 65 per minute or 45 per minute.

If that's the case, then wouldn't the heart just beat chaotically? How is it possible that the heart beats in a regular way with all of these different pacemakers lying around?

The reason is that under normal circumstances, only the SA node is active; all of the other latent pacemakers are basically inactive. Now, should the SA node fail, the AV node can take over. Likewise, if the AV node fails, cells that make up the Purkinje fibers can take over. And if even they fail, then the ventricular cells can take over as a last resort. There's lots of redundancy for this all-important organ.

Another type of pacemaker is the type that gets implanted by physicians. In patients with abnormal heart rates or rhythms, an artificial pacemaker can be implanted. These pacemakers serve the same purpose as the natural pacemakers of the heart: they control the regular rate and rhythm of the heart

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#20
In reply to #16

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 4:43 PM

one last comment where did i say "do we need one?" as i cant find it

Thanks

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#28
In reply to #16

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

06/08/2010 12:27 PM

Thanks for keeping the discussion on track.

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#19
In reply to #13

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 4:36 PM

CARBONIC ACID

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid

i didnt know that either so thats two things i have learnt from your postings

so it hasnt been a waste of time, as i for one am learning from my ignorant remarks.

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#17

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 4:05 PM

With the existing technology and battery (meaning) accumulator: NO But we will look further for cosmic vibrators and electromagnetic captors.

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#21

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 11:03 PM

A tank circuit consisting of a capacitor and an inductor does this. I have not seen it used as a "AC Battery" but there is one inside a vacuum jar in the Smithsonian Museum that has been continually oscillating for over 50 years with very little loss. Tank circuits seem to be used less these days but a study, in light of our progress, looks interesting.

Chemical batteries generally do not produce AC. However it may be possible. When attempting to produce a rechargeable button cell using a carnuba wax electret, the thing would charge up nicely and within 24 hours, electrically reverse poles.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 11:21 PM

Tank circuits with very high Q- factor are also "high impedance" and not capable to provide the current to call it a battery. Here however a AC circuit is working. How do they know it is still working? Measuring it should shorten its life cycle? Your second description of the "Carnauba Electret" is one half cycle. How does it go on further? Thanks

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

05/02/2010 3:28 PM

Measuring the energy in the tank does remove some energy which has been pulsed back into the circuit to its calculated power level prior to reading. The Carnauba electret oddity was studied for several years after I stopped doing research in the subject.

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#29
In reply to #22

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

06/08/2010 8:51 PM

"Tank circuits with very high Q- factor are also "high impedance""

Please correct me if I am wrong in saying -The "Q" value does not define the circuit impedance. At resonance the circuit reactance = 0.

The "Q" value defines the "sharpness" of the response not the "impedance" of the circuit.

In a high "Q" circuit the impedance increases more rapidly as the frequency moves off resonance than a low "Q" circuit; but at resonance the reactance = 0 and circuit impedance = resistance.

Gavilan

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#30
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Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

06/08/2010 10:28 PM

Hi Gavilan, In Europe Q stands for quality factor of a resonance circuit. I can imagine that "sharpness" means about the same. You are right. But with a low Q factor your circuit uses a lot of energy. (look at the HF adjustable band filters in Radio and TV) It is very difficult to build a resonator that can deliver current. Depending on if it is a parallel- or serial circuit at resonance frequency, the impedance is or 0 or infinite.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

04/30/2010 11:25 PM

I predict the tank circuit is coming back big time. In the form of a hybrid power process where super capacitors capable of storing about 4 accelerations of the vehicle are used with the motor inductance and controller capacitance to control both applied power and regenerative braking.

In combination with circuit polarity switching, power and braking will be controlled by varying the circuit reactance. The super-cap will be the temporary storage device used to average the load on the prime mover and serve as storage for regenerative braking. The super-cap will have the power density in both output and acceptance for this application.

I have been watching this technology for over 30 years. We are getting very very close.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/37460/The-Three-Fundamental-Efficiencies-of-Hybrid-Technology

Gavilan

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#26

Re: New Power Source - AC Battery

05/14/2010 10:18 AM

If I had an invention (idea) those are the very questions that I would ask, before going any further. If the answer for both were "yes" I would go ahaid....

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