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Building Automation System

05/01/2010 2:53 PM

i want to ask about building automation system

what documents shall i ask my contractor to submit about building automation system because this item in the bill of material is very short and i want him to submit documents for our review ,what kind of documents (layout-communication -wiring) shall i ask him??????????

my project is a big laboratory with pumps and VFD and leak detection system and scada system ......... thanks everyone

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#1

Re: Building Automation System

05/01/2010 4:55 PM

I assume that this is the same project you've been working on, and asking questions about?

If you don't know what to ask for, how will you know that what you get is good information? Are you competent to evaluate documentation when you cannot identify what documentation you need?

I think you need an assistant.

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#2

Re: Building Automation System

05/01/2010 10:49 PM

Get help. Don't feel bad---most of the automated building control systems installed today fall far short of where they need to be or even the expectations of buyers who are ignorant. You are a primary example of why if you are an owners rep. They, the control installers are much like you---They try to do something they can't without any knowledge or needed experience. If you are not the building owner but his rep. I suggest you have him fire you and get someone who knows what he is doing in all aspects of construction or particularly in those areas involved. Try a cracker jack box list, unless you are knowledgeable a forum like this is not the place to go for information. All will simply tell you to get help but would hope you are not dumb enough to think that a few paragraphs within this source will get you through.

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#3

Re: Building Automation System

05/02/2010 12:56 AM

It is reasonably simple to get the basics. But seriously, it is really odd for you to be asking this on here. You need professional help, and there is no substitute for it.

Automation systems (for HVAC) are typically sold on a 'point' basis.

A point is an input or output on your system. It can be a temp sensor, or a pump control. There are several types. Some are hardware and some are simply software variables. The hardware types are:

AI = Analog Input (eg. temp, pressure, humidity, flow, etc.)
AO = Analog Output (eg. valve positioner, damper positioner, fan speed, etc.)
BI = Binary Input (aka Digital Input) (eg. Positon status switches, door contacts, physical alarms, etc)
BO = Binary Output (aka Digital Output) (eg. Pump Controls, Fan Controls, etc.)

So the first thing you need to see or ask for is called the Points List. (small sample here. it can be very wide and long, but as a customer, you may not get to see all of it unless you ask. You usually get narrow version, and the electrician/mechanic gets a version each, etc.)

Now the system wires all manner of controls, transformers, and other electrical equipment together, and communicates with the Direct Digital Controllers (DDC), and these are basically microprocessor controlled Input/Output cards. Each of them will be defined by the number of different IO ports they have. (AI,AO,BI,BO) Coupled with the System Diagrams, you may also wish the see the Wiring Diagrams, which will show wiring for all the higher voltage equipement such as fan motors, boilers and chiller controls (MCC = Motor Control Center, which is where they will be wired controlled from)

Typically the controllers are standalone, and will have a dedicated function, such as controlling a boiler, chiller, or vav, etc. This is a level above the individual sensor level. The controllers are frequently networked together to higher level 'network controllers' and computer interface workstations (called HMI for human machine interface). This is the third level. Above that is web systems for communicated for multiple diverse buildings. All of this is usually documented on something called a Network Diagram(s)

the network diagram should also have all the protocol details for communicating between controllers, such as whether it is an open or proprietary network protocol, and whether or not it is using another network/trunk to communicate over and the speeds of those networks.

For each of the dedicated direct digital controllers, operating specific equipments, there will be a text document that describes the operations of the programming for that mechanical energy system. It is called the Sequence of Operations.

Another thing that is frequently specified is the software that is running on your control workstation, and the abundance of energy saving features available. You can often have pictorial schematics (which I used to create for a living) of the systems being controlled, and those can have 'live' data represented in them.

Also with the workstation, you need to specify the 'backup plan' for archiving all the software, including software programs written to run in the digital controllers, and all the data on your workstation, and a plan and equipment for archiving everythign offsite on a regular basis, and a detailed list of responsibilities.

There are so many areas where a lack of diligence or awareness can create a great deal of waste. Please get some professional assistance to guide you, not just to purchase, but to oversee the operations once the system is running.

This is just a rudimentary list of things to ask for, besides the obvious cost data. As you will need to justify the expenditure, it is pertinent to ask for, or interactively work to acquire, energy audit information, so that the purchase of the automation system can have some reasonable energy goals developed to work to. You need to ask how much, as a rule, (typically from your consulting engineer) for a given building type, what the dollar cost per per point typically is for your area. (ie, 4,000$ per point)

Chris

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Building Automation System

05/09/2010 3:53 AM

Hi Crisg288,

Just wanted to thank you for the very informative reply. It has helped me a lot to further understand the BAS. I use to be in Bldg Maint.

You surely spent time and took the trouble to clearly explain with schematics too. I greatly appreciate your professional attitude, worthy of praise. Wish you all the best for the future.

Thanks

Nasir

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Building Automation System

05/09/2010 12:08 PM
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#4

Re: Building Automation System

05/02/2010 4:18 AM

As said in another reply: get help! I'll add: now!

You need to cover the desing/procurement/implementation phase, the installation phase and the commissioning phase. Those phases may not be covered by the same company/supplier => that might help you in claiming docs that you need.

You should have required a Deliverable Schedule which would have listed all the documents they each have to provide you. There is no standard Deliverable Schedule, it will all depends on context -e.g. green field or brown field site, legal requirements and habits. And this will also vary depending on the sub-system: pumps or SCADA do not require the same docs.

Having said that, the philosophy of the docs you need depends on what you want to do: during the project, in terms of acceptance of the system and during the warranty and maintenance. Note if you have some specific requirements because of your labs you may have to ask for type tests.

The above should have been part of your tender, what have you put in your tender docs?

During the project, if you want to validate what they do you'll need their technical specifications, their design documents and their test documents.

In terms of acceptance, let's consider this project is a one off so what you need is a simple Validation Plan which explain what they test, how they do it and the list of their tests. That applies for the Factory Acceptance Test session, the Site Acceptance Test session and the Commissioning. FAT aims at validating the functions you have required. SAT aims at validating the installation of the system. Commissioning aims at validating the system once installed works fin within in its final environment.

With respect to the rest of the system lifetime, have you the intention to address the maintenance at all levels? If so you need the docs which allow you to do that plus ... the training for each bit you'll have to work on.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Building Automation System

05/02/2010 10:57 AM

all true. ga.

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