Previous in Forum: How We Can Check AVR in Loncin Generator   Next in Forum: Purpose of Shunt Reactor
Close
Close
Close
9 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Anonymous Poster

Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 2:06 AM

Hi fellows

I bought a ceiling fan 220V, 50HZ, 75W, 380RPM for my home. My friend also bought another branded fan 220V, 50HZ, 80W which speed was > than my fan. The speed was not measured but feels by sense. I checked and found that both fans have same rating capacitor 2.5uf. I could not understand how fan2 speed is > than my fan. Normally, if a single phase fan speed drops due to low voltage or due to ageing factor, we add another capacitor (50-80% than original) parallel with old and found the speed increase. Can any body explain the cause?

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Participant

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2
#1

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 3:01 AM

The motor used for a fan motor is a capacitor-start capacitor-run type. that is there is a permanent capacitor is used for starting purpose. a single phase supply alone can never start an induction motor. there requires minimum of two phases for producing a rotating magnetic field in the stator.

as we know the current through the inductor lags and current through capacitor leads. the capacitor used in the circuit balances some amount of lag made by the starting winding. so virtually there is a two phase in the motor and the rotor starts to rotate by principle of induction motor.

the starting torque is propotional to the phase lead offered by the capacitor. if the capacitor is weak, there will be no sufficient starting torque and due to this reason the motor does not reach the full speed. (there will be a predetermined value of starting capacitance for each motor. using above or below that value is not preffered.)

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#2

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 3:09 AM

You didn't state the rpm of your friend's fan. Maybe it is wound with fewer poles, thereby turning faster. Also, the blade pitch and diameter could differ from your fan. I would expect 80W to do somewhat, but not greatly, more air flow than 75W.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 5:29 AM

I could not measure the rpm, it was easily feeling that the fan was running fast as compare with my fan.

Reply
Associate

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 40
Good Answers: 1
#4

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 6:57 AM

With one formula, you can find what fan is right for your home. This is the formula for fan CFM: Cubic feet per minute, more commonly known as CFM is calculated by the following formula: air speed (feet per minute) X area (square feet)=CFM. Not everyone is going to take a look at CFM, but for those who do it is a helpful tool. In simpler words than that of the formula, it is the amount of air a fan moves.

The amount of air depends on some other factors as well, such as the diameter and shape of the blades, speed at which the blades turn (revolutions per minute or rpm), horsepower (hp) of the motor, and overall fan design. These combined factors establish the air moving capacity of a fan. Fan capacity is measured in terms of the cubic feet, and again, this is how CFM (cubic feet per minute is determined.)

Hope this will help.........

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Electrical Construction

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mid Western USA - The Corn Belt
Posts: 1439
Good Answers: 58
#5

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 11:17 AM

80 watt versus 75 watt, I would be inclined to assume that the 80 watt fan would run slightly faster.

Being that you can not establish the RPM of your friend's fan but can only feel the difference, have you taken into consideration that there may be other contributing factors such as difference in blade pitch, mounting distance from ceiling and/or floor, room size, ect, ect?

Just a couple thoughts.

__________________
The first 5 days after a weekend are always the hardest................................
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#6

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 12:06 PM

Many ceiling fans are shaded pole motors, not capacitor start. The design of the motor itself and the blade pitch (load on the motor) will determine the running speed. These are often "impedance limited" motors so they can be completely stalled without over loading, so even if the motors are exactly identical, increasing the load by having a different blade pitch will result in a different running speed, but it will draw more current. 75W vs 80W may indicate that exact difference.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Reply
Power-User
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: KY, USA
Posts: 367
Good Answers: 18
#7

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/18/2010 1:42 PM

The most useful information would be to compare the RPM of the two motors, but since you do not have this information you could try swapping blades between the two fans and see which fan moves more air.

A blade with little pitch would reduce the load on the motor and allow the fan to spin at nearly 100% of the motor's rated speed. This would make you feel more movement of air, but only when you are directly below the fan. With greater pitch on the blades roughly the same amount of air is moved, but it is spread out more evenly throughout the room.

__________________
The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do. ~Thomas Jefferson
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/19/2010 7:06 AM

Ok.

In three phase motor, the rpm is related with frequency and poles of motor, then what about single phase motors? how we calculate their speed?

It is an un-understandable for me that in some cases, we connected the higher rated capacitor as compare with original and found the speed of single phase fan increased.

Reply
Power-User
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: KY, USA
Posts: 367
Good Answers: 18
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Why single phase fan1 speed is > fan2

05/19/2010 10:12 AM

You can vary the speed of a single phase motor by manipulating voltage to the motor which is probably how your fan works, but care must be taken when you do so to ensure that the resulting change in torque does not over-load the motor's windings. Other common ways to vary speed of a single-phase motor are to energize more windings, space the windings closer together, or use pulley ratios and belts.

Most of the time a capacitor on a single phase motor only serves to increase torque output during startup, but in applications where there is only a small continuous load on the motor (like a fan) a permanent split capacitor (PSC) can be wired to improve the efficiency of the motor.

Here's a wiring diagram for a typical ceiling fan from http://www.educypedia.be/electronics/motoracsingle.htm

*Notice that on low and medium speeds the Autotransformer is in series with the fan motor. This changes the voltage drop across the motor windings.

The PSC is supposed to be sized to null the "power lag" created by the inductance of the motor's windings in order to get the efficiency of the motor to near unity (current and voltage 100% in phase). Over-sizing the capacitor too much will create a "power lead" which may affect the motor's speed but at the expense of efficiency.

The applications of "power lead" and "lag" are very "un-understandable" even if you have the equations. The discipline of "Power Engineering" is centered around this. For more information you can Google "apparent power" or follow this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power

__________________
The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do. ~Thomas Jefferson
Reply
Reply to Forum Thread 9 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); EElectrician (2); ieshiv (1); JRaef (1); KJK/USA (1); thaseem08 (1); Tornado (1)

Previous in Forum: How We Can Check AVR in Loncin Generator   Next in Forum: Purpose of Shunt Reactor

Advertisement