Microsoft Windows

Sounds a lot like our politicians, they just do things without asking anyone, or do things that fly in the face of public opinion because they can. I digress, as far as Windows is concerned it's all about money. I was fairly happy with Windows XP, until my computer crashed, I had to buy a new one with Windows 7 preinstalled, no option of having XP installed. But, it's not just money for Bill Gates, it's money for everyone. Now I sit with Windows 7, that seems to work pretty well, I avoided the Vista nightmare, the problem, that really pisses me off, is that I have a perfectly good scanner that worked on Win XP, but is not compatible with Win 7, the kicker is, it's an HP scanner and my new computer is an HP, but, they refuse to write and release new driver software to make the scanner work with Win 7. Their attitude is, we'll send you a coupon good towards a new scanner, BS, meantime, my old scanner, which isn't very old is now a paper weight. Grrrrrrrrrr......

The same happened with me. When I switched fro ME to XP, my laser printer and scanner would work with the new software.

Windows 7 uses and is totally compatible with Vista drivers. Check for a Vista driver for your scanner. If you can find one, it should work without any difficulty at all.

Nope, I guess the scanner is older than I thought, even though I've only used it probably ten times. It's an hp scanjet 4400c, bought it back when I had ME OS, worked fine in both ME and XP, but no vista drivers exist. Can't change compatibility mode and get it to work either, pretty sure I'm SOL.

You may run it in compatibility mode

totally compatible with ...
<flump thud>
BTW. The cheque is in the post. And of course I love you hun.
Del

That's the point. You are obviously well versed in computers and operating systems and can probably use the latest and greatest to advantage, but the average person out there doesn't need all that power. OS's are fast enough for all our applications. We don't need something new which won't improve the things we do. Most of us have a learning curve that is longer than for a computer expert like you.

I think it possible that you've missed the point.

The point is that computer technology is constantly moving forward. It was not that many years ago that the Pentium III and Windows 98SE were the latest and greatest. Now however, the PIII is barely serviceable and to go online with 98SE is cybernetic suicide.

Windows XP was and is a fine OS. However, and as I said above, it was developed as a 32 bit OS. And fewer and fewer 32 bit machines are being built and sold, and fewer and fewer new applications are being written for 32 bit and XP.

Now make no mistake, XP will continue to be used and supported for years to come. But as time passes, it will be less and less capable of supporting new applications and new technologies, until eventually it will all but fade away, just as every other operating system before it. The final straw which made me abandon 98SE was it's inability to operate a wireless network interface card, which was something of a pity, as it was just blindingly fast on the newer systems. Just as XP is just freakishly fast on my T61, but is unable to take full advantage of all of it's capabilities.

So, by all means, stick with XP for now. It is a superb OS and will no doubt continue to serve you well for many years to come. But realize that when your old machines finally wear out, whatever you replace them with will undoubtedly require a newer and more up to date OS, be that Windows 7 or what follows it, OSX or even OSXI, or some newer version of Linux. Tempus fugit.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I am semi-retired right now, and use my T61 for little more than amusement. But I do try to keep myself up to date.

My problem is, that I can't get rid of something that works, so my scanner sits on my desk, it's even plugged in, ( I know, that's stupid), meanwhile, my wife is going insane, because my pile of stuff keeps getting bigger, I keep hoping something magical is going to happen and the scanner will work again, something's wrong with me.

http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Operating-systems-and-software/Vista-compatable-driver-for-HP-scanjet-4400c/m-p/33768

Using the link above you'll find a discussion of how some people were able to get their 4400c's to run under Windows 7. Let me know if it helps.

Thanks for the effort. I've been there before and I think I've just about beaten that dead horse to death. There is one method that one guy says works, I've tried it about 6 times with no luck. I might give it another try tomorrow, the rest of them just want money. Thanks again, I'll let you know.

I read all the replies and have to agree with what everyone says. Most have stated in words that even I can understand. There seem to be two types of computer users; one who uses computers for computer sake and those who use computers as a tool in their everyday life. I am of the latter. I know how to turn the computer on, how to get music, read my e-mail, type a letter and draw using Acad. That is all I need a computer for. I have invested just enough time, money and effort to achieve my goals. On the other hand, Dr. Moose, you sound to me to be a computer guru also. You enjoy messing around with them, trying new things and may also have enough resources to afford it. Words like "kernal" is meaningless to me.

Doctors have their lexicon of words exclusive to them that the general public doesn't understand. The RC church, lawyers and computer programmers have their lexicons also. It might have been nice if the computer geeks had used more discriptive wording to explain what goes on inside a computer. Maybe more people would be able to understand it better.

Oh come on I am sure you know what kernel is...everyone does. Dr. Moose just spelled it wrong. The correct spelling is Colonel !

It might have been nice if the computer geeks had used more discriptive wording to explain what goes on inside a computer. Maybe more people would be able to understand it better.

I attended the Systems and Software Technology Conference recently and was struck by how precise, unique and isolated the language being used was. The group I work in includes one of the world's leading experts on estimating software projects. He (and the rest of the software industry) considers 20% to be terrifically accurate.

So don't feel too bad about not understanding software/computers.

Hi Ron

I always read your threads, you have lots of good questions

I ended up fooling around with linux, because I didn't have money to buy new hardware...

I do like learning some of this computer stuff.

other than the need to use acad & depending on how you handle your email, you'd be fine in about 10min...

Kernal would be

Keyboard Entry Read, Network, And Link

the basis of an operating system

but yes computer guys take pride in using acronyms, that obscure rather than clarify the meaning

I'm probably just an impatient fool. If I buy a computer, I expect it to work, period. If I'm driving down the road, and the speed limit is 65 and someone is driving in the fast lane at 50, they need to die. I have no interest in becoming a programmer. If you've got a list of known bugs and glitches, fix them. Who the hell else gets to sell people sh%%t that doesn't work, create a list of unresolved problems and the money keeps on rolling in. I'm glad they're not doctors.

You want an Apple, which works out of the box for a limited range of functions

albeit at a price premium

I'm also sure you can find any number of consultants more than willing to divest you from substantial sums to set up your system or network & train you in the operation...

as we are all familiar there is always a primary equation

Do you have more time or money?

the more you understand the operation & the more time you spend using any tool, the better you are able to take full advantage of all the capabilities

but yes MS chaps my hide too

There are problems, with unstable platforms of the past, and I'm sure of the future.

But I do not know of one person the reverted back to where it was before MS.

I recently took the plunge into the world of linux

There are a huge variety choices

my favorite is linux mint9

all the everyday stuff just works

firefox, open office

my 10 year old hp1200, was plug n play

sure sometimes I fuss around, but I'm trying to do more than surf & pictures

for everyday, no problem easy to use

getting an installation CD [ISO file]is the key with a live CD you can take it for a test drive

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

today's performance on old hardware

if you like it try a dualboot, no need to fully commit

there are 30'000 different easy to install applications.

window 7 requires lots of speed & ram just to exist

the entire linux OS is around 1gig

with windows there is a bunch of stuff running in the back ground all the time.

linux is just more efficent when it comes to processor bang for the buck

no need to buy a new computer, just make better use of what you have

Still no luck with the scanner. I'll do some reading up on Linux, since my system is working right now, (aside from the scanner), as much as I'd like to abandon windows completely, making big changes is very scary. Over the years of using windows machines and installing new software to circumvent the MS stuff, i.e- browsers, email, word processing, etc. I'm not convinced that the Microsoft Os's don't have code written into them to intentionally wreak havoc when trying to use software that competes with theirs. I may be wrong, but it seems like they got into trouble some years back for these kind of practices. Thanks for the tip, I'll probably give it a try.

Hey Ron, This is probably off topic, but, there is a book called, Hackers: Heroes of the computer revolution, by Stephen Levy. It's not real techy, and gives a lot of insight into how all of this computer stuff came about, definitely worth a read.

Running a linux trial with a live CD, loads no programs onto your computer,

you can take a test without making any permanent changes

I started out running tests on an old PC assembled out of scraps.

much to my surprise when I plugged the printer in it worked

I email attachment to myself when I need to print

Open office opens up all the common formats

when I scan in I send those back to the computer I use everyday...

I chose Mint, being the most windows XP like & user friendly

no fussing around to get youtube or flash working

my wife's notebook is a dual boot with vista, which has been booted into vista maybe once in the last month, so I could play with Itunes & a Ipod I repaired...

I use PIcasa for pictures, which is what I was using on xp/vista anyway

my biggest stumbling block has been my tendency to look for application on the web, instead of within the "official" channels.

There is a vibrant helpful community, but it does get confusing, much of the jargon geared towards higher level users like Dr Moose & Bwire.

Very cool! I just read through their documentation, and I will definitely try it out. I'd be willing to bet that my scanner will work within that OS as well. Thanks. I'll try it out and post the results here.

I just installed mint on my hard drive, it's going to take some getting used to, although I can remember the pride I had after memorizing most of the DOS command prompts on my first computer, with just green print on the screen, this should be easier. Although, it is a little scary. I'm waiting for the sun to go into supernova, or at least for windows to detect the alien invader on my hard drive and start shooting me messages about what a foolish and dangerous decision I have made.:-0

This forum works

http://ubuntuforums.org/

mint is a more polished version of 10.04

there will be support [updates] for 3 years.

the only effect on windows I've seen is after using mint for a while, you'll stop using windows

if you need an application, click menu & enter it in the filter box...

Let me know if I can help, CWarner 711 is very knowledgeable...

enjoy

Thanks. I'm not a computer kind of guy. I use it only as a tool. I'm not interested in programming or trying new or different programs. I just want it to do what I use it for. That's mainly Acad and word processing. I have too many other interests to keep me occupied and computers are not the place where I want to spend a lot of time learning something new that won't improve my present computer use.

great stuff Moose,, the only operating system you seem to have left out is WindowsNT,, which was a great, highly stable system, the NT kernel formed the basis of XP and is, IMHO, the reason for the great stability and success of XP

Indeed sir, my knowledge and use of NT has been limited, but I do know that this was from whence came the NTFS file structure and the NT kernal, both of which have formed the basis of all advancement in the Windows world since. Truly a wonderful advancement.

I have heard it said but have never had really investigated this any further, being more a hardware geek than a real software type, that NTFS was modeled on an intense study of the UNIX system, in hopes of capturing some of it's inherent stability. I wonder if anyone within this forum knows more of this?

I concur, I'm more of an analogue guy, but my IT gurus inform me that NT was indeed born from UNIX,,, which reminds me of a humorous adage, "UNIX and LSD both came from USC at Berkley, at about the same time, it is not a coincidence".

Hmmmm... It was my understanding that UNIX was the brainchild of the boys and girls at Bell Labs back in the late 60s. I believe it was the BSD version of UNIX which came out of UC Berkley. I am also given to understand that OSX is based upon BSD, which seems to go a long ways towards explaining the fundamental differences between the it and the various Windows OSes.

So, it would seem that UNIX has pretty much conquered the computing world. Funny how that seems to have played out.

My very first PC was an old HP (back in the days when HP was building the world's best data acquisition equipment) running HP-UX, which was an adaptation of Berkeley V Unix, which was based on the original UNIX out of Bell Labs (this also was in the days when conventional wisdom held that UNIX was too big to run on a PC). UNIX was written in the original c, which also came out of Bell Labs (again, back when Bell Labs was a real research institute), all driven by the need to share information between computers...

DrMoose-

Very good exposition. However, all of this "moving forward" creates significant financial stress for some of us. For example, I have a diverse suite of data acquisition equipment for which the software was developed under Windows 98 (in one case, Windows 95!). We are talking several thousand dollars worth of equipment. Some of the software burps when run on Windows XP- I never tried on Vista. I understand that Windows 7 is friendlier to legacy applications, but am not willing to invest the amount of money MS wants just to run a test. Most of the equipment is too old for the manufacturers to be interested in developing new drivers- they want to sell me new equipment with features I don't need.

My solution? Ubuntu with VirtualBox running Win 98SE as a Guest Operating System. Wine would be preferable if Wine would come up with usb support. It would be even better to be able to buy a new computer with RS-232 capabilities, but that is mostly dreaming (I can't afford the newer laptops that are come with RS-232). It has saved me a bundle of money.

I still have my old Windows 98 Machine running, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good when I have to do data acquisition in the field. Newer portable computers burp when I try to load Windows 98. I have one machine running Windows XP pro, but about the only thing I use that for these days is CAD. Everything else I do (FEA, Fluid dynamics, sophisticated math) I do on one of my Ubuntu boxes- all loaded with FREE OpenSource software. Commercial multiphysics packages that could give me the capabilties I have for free (specifically CAELinux, build on Ubuntu) would run me several thousand dollars, just for the software...

Linux has gotten a whole lot more user-friendly of late. With the exception of traditional 2D CAD, there are any number of free OpenSource applications that run as easily as most commercially available Windows-based applications. Interestingly, 3D CAD is more readily available for Linux than 2D CAD, but machine shops still want 2D drawings...even though I can output CAM files from my Linux 3D CAD programs.

The only program I still prefer from the old Windows days is Excel 2000 (newer versions that I have looked at have lost it!).

Had Microsoft not been so insistent in turning all of my ancilliary equipment (including printers, scanners, and the data acqusition stuff) into redundant boat anchors, I would probably still be using Windows. What is wrong with backwards-compatibiltiy? One can still use an ancient rotary dial telephone with new telephone circuits...

Linux gives me backwards compatibility...

My friend, we have discussed this matter before, and I can in no wise dispute anything which you have said. As I have mentioned before, I am rather fond of Fedora Linux, though I don't use it much. For the most part I am but a simple tinkerer, and technology a vast and wonderful toy-box.

Back to the original question. Why? And the answer, for the most part, is what you state after your question. It's how people make their living and if this were to stop where would they be? But the deeper level of your question is from a societal standpoint. Is the level of technology we have today necessary? Many people came and went living their lives without the word computer even existing. Were their lives miserable because of it? I think not.

You are also speaking to the real stress that computers cause in people's lives -- especially computers controlled by Microsoft OS's. I wouldn't say Linux is a better alternative, just because I think there is no doubt that the more you know about command-line Unix, the better your experience of Linux will be. But that only means that the average user will still be in the dark about the real workings of their computer. I'm pretty computer savvy, but I have wasted almost countless hours trying to get some new application or piece of hardware to work under Windows. (I'm fighting getting a wireless router to work properly as we speak.) And Linux is not immune to this sort of thing. As you get older time becomes very important to you. It should be important all our life long, but that is another subject.

The further technology progresses, the more people will begin to realize that there are limits to the ability of these things to enhance the quality of our lives. Getting older makes this process happen in your own life irregardless of "mankind's" lifetime -- which may be hundreds or thousands of more years... or not. So I would say this question about when is enough technology enough can lead to this larger question of is there something else about life that I've totally missed?

I have as much experience as DrMoose, and am very well-steeped in anti-Microsoft dogma. I do believe we would be better off overall as a computer-using species had Microsoft been forced to break up back in 2001. But that didn't happen, and I cannot prove to any extent why and how we'd be better off if only 40% or so of computers ran Windows.

But I'm realizing that it's more than just the pursuit of the almighty dollar that justifies Microsoft releasing yet another Windows version, or Apple upgrading IPhone OS or MacOS, or Linux continuing its evolution. The main driver here is "Moore's Law" (as much a law as Murphy's), which states that every 18 months the baseline computer processing power doubles. Compare your current desktop to an IBM PC of 1985 vintage. Can you imagine trying to use even a fraction of the computing power of the new box using MSDOS? It is to laugh, frankly.

With our number-crunching capability advancing so rapidly and steadily, it's natural that new operating systems are needed to enable new functionality made possible by the new power. Things are really getting interesting lately, with major moves being made towards mobile/miniaturization AND natural user interfaces. I've got to hand it to Microsoft: their new Kinect project looks freaking awesome, and has me considering buying an XBox 360. Not everything they do sucks.

I agree, Microsoft has done some awesome stuff, they almost single handedly ushered in the computer revolution amongst the masses, and their new OS's do get better and better, (realistically, let's say every other OS), my biggest problem is their proclivity to try to monopolize everything they touch, I'm not even that mad about my scanner not working. I can't really blame any of them for not wanting to write code and create new drivers to make old stuff work, no money in that, it's just a shame. There are a lot of people like the previous poster that simply can't afford to continually upgrade OS's, computers, peripherals, etc. I'm one of them. It would be nice, if once they have decided that something is obsolete, if they were to make it open source, so if anyone wanted to tweak on it they could.

"It would be nice, if once they have decided that something is obsolete, if they were to make it open source, so if anyone wanted to tweak on it they could."

That sure would be nice.

I work for the Air Force, which flies some 60-year-old airplanes. Imagine the obsolescence problems. OTOH, since Micro$oft decided to stop providing HyperTerminal starting with Vista, it may lead to a fairly interesting upgrade project.

Hello Kamrat:

Depending on which version of windows 7 you have, you can install a virtual XP machine. Windows 7 professional and ultimate have this capability, I'm not sure if all versions supports the virtual machine functions. The XP mode software is a free download from Microsoft.

I originally had problems, driver issues and compatibility with one of my programs, so I ended up running my scanner on the virtual XP machine until the new drivers were released. It works like a champ. I run dual monitors so at times I had windows 7 on one monitor and XP on the other. Took a little getting use to and at times (like before my first cup of coffee, or after my second martini) it could be confusing. But you might wanna try it before you throw the scanner away.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx

Unfortunately I have the home version of Win 7, none of that is free for me. I can just learn to live without a scanner, there is no way I can justify shoveling more money to Microsoft. Just as a side note I have to give Bill Gates a lot of credit. He is truly a marketing genius, they make a ton of money on every new version of windows, whether it sucks or not, and have been able to pull this off over and over, and it will probably continue for at least the rest of my life. And no one can convince me, that, when they turn out a glitchy, buggy turkey, that they are not aware of it beforehand.

MS is doing what any good company does maximize market share & income

more power to em

I'm glad to have options.

Imagine if ma bell had dominated the information technology... as they had communication for so many years.

the real issue is a continued open interweb

handheld devices operating in the cloud are the future

As lynn says how much computing power do you need?

MS lost me with Vista, which wasn't friendly to me. Bwire kept telling me I'm not using it right, which is probably true. Since I was stuck having to learn stuff. I chose to learn stuff that would let me use the hardware I have, instead of upgrading.

there is surprisingly little command line stuff needed these days. I can have a pile of parts online with a live cd, a internet connection in about 2 hours, my actual time sitting in front of the keyboard is about 10 minutes. All through a graphical user interface [point & click]. This option is not for everyone.

The pos notebook I'm on is wireless for the 1st time, with a couple of clicks. I haven't had to uninstall/reinstall printer drivers even once, this procedure was just a fact of life on vista.

best on all no stuff hogging processor speed. any bloat I have is self inflicted & easily removed

linux is a Totally viable [easy] option if all you want to do is surf, email & family pics, never opening a terminal [dos prompt]

if you want to play games, stick with windows

if you want a totally finished package, go with apple

well guys I have a little personal knowledge on the subject at hand. I happen to set in many meetings some of them a few days long with MS people. one of the latest is with a bunch of the key code gurus. It looks like WIN 7 will be the last of the old antiquated OS's with with that kernel. A new kernel was handed out for Win 8 and backward compatibility is of little concern. I quote "it's time to move on" said one of the executives. just remember the internet runs on UNIX not MS linus is UNIX Mac is UNIX most . maybe it's time to upgrade your lives K

People that seek absolute control will be absolutely destroyed, at least in the America that I was raised in. Good luck!

Is not W7 just Vista with some of the features 'turned off". Since they both are such system hoggs.

I'm afraid you have let the cat out of the bag my friend, pray they don't know where you live.

Most of the information posted here is way over my head yet a large portion of my free time is spent with my wife on-line gaming. In just a few short years we have gone from graphics that wouldn't even pass for poor cartoons to some of the most realistic landscape ever reproduced. Windows XP doesn't run directX version 10 as I understand. So as programers and hardware designers make advances the operating systems must evolve to bring it all together. Any old box can run a word processor and spread sheet but i'm sure you guys need something a bit better for the top of the line CAD programs. For me and my wife to experience Middle Earth at its best we both run gaming monsters that cost over $3,000.00 each. Most of that is video power and extra cooling systems required to run them for 18 hours straight. All so that, on a clear night in lothlorien, we can see the stars reflect in a still lake while we pause for a bowl of pipeweed and contemplate our next adventure in Mirkwood. There really is a huge difference in game enjoyment when you can set your machine to reproduce the highest level of graphic the developers created.

Hot new MMORPG: $60.

MMORPG subscription, per month: $30

Hi-end gaming system: $2000

Cooling system to run Hi-end gaming system for 18 hours straight: $1000

Wife who likes to play MMORPG with you for 18 hours straight: Priceless.

I was told by an IT manager, the first rule is;

Never become close and personal with the current software, It will change.

My question is; why do we need new operating systems that are not a substantial improvement.

To get from point A to point B require steps. To have substantial changes, no one will upgrade, Like how hard it is for you to leave XP for minor improvements.

p911

Yeah, you got it in one. It's a big money making confidence trick...paint it bule, call it new...sell 'em the same old pig but with lipstick on it.
User inertia is about the only thing keeping the good ship Microsoft afloat...
I think there are Icebergs in them that seas.
Del

Go for Linux.

Direct answer to OP's question: MONEY!

You (and I and others) dislike available hardware forcing you to spend money replacing good software. We also dislike available software forcing you to spend money replacing good hardware. We dislike it because we are forced to waste good money replacing good hardware/software. They like it because we spend more money than we would if waste was not forced upon us.

Money in their pocket is more important to them than having you be happy with money in your pocket.

Options are pretty simple to list:
1) Live with it.
2) Switch to Linux (Ubuntu is good to consider).
3) Use something like VirtualBox (previously posted suggestion) to run older windows inside Linux.
4) Use EBay to get old hardware/software and therefore postpone having the future forced upon you.

Note that fixing the wasteful marketing methods was not on the list.