HHO geneators??

Well, OK. I'll start it off.

This 24 volt alternator; What spins it? Is it in addition to your 12 volt alt?

Are you getting H₂ and O₂, or HHO? Are you sure? Are you using the H₂, or the O₂, or combined?

You tell us "...I am not getting the improvements to my mileage yet due the computer richening my cleaner exhaust back up to a richer state." Are you sure that is the reason mileage is not improved?

What is coming out of the tube going to the intake is a vapor.

The vapor is hydrogen2 and one oxygen molocule created from what is called electrolysis of water. Hydrogen is explosive as we have all heard of the Hindenburg Blimp and Oxygen just adds to the heat of the explosion.

There is no carbon atom in Hydrogen like there is in other fuels like gasoline, diesel or alcohol therefore there is no carbon footprint left behind which creates soot residue.

When fuel is atomized and sprayed into the cylinder in modern injection engines about 85% is combusted which drives the piston down in the cylinder to give the engine power and when the oxygen sensors in the exhaust read the unburnt fuel residue in the exhaust vapors the signals coming from these sensors going back to the computer cause the injectors to lean down or take some fuel away till it achieves a 14.5:1 Air fuel ratio in the exhaust for better exhaust emissions.

When you add hydrogen in the mix as well as more concentration of oxygen the explosion is therefore stronger and hotter and will burn the fuel more effectively leaving less unburnt fuel to come out of the cylinder into the exhaust stream. Therefore the computer sees it as running leaner therefore will richen the mixer back up which is not really neccessary.

I built a seperate bracket for my 24 volt alternator and mounted it to the side of my existing alternator bracket and lengthened my serpentine belt to drive it as well as my existing 12 volt alternator. The 24 volt alternator gets energized when I flip the swich to activate the relay which powers the hydrogen cell.

how the engine works as you dont seem to know the finer points of engines

http://www.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm

running an engine on H2 and O2

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what+would+happen+to+an+internal+engine+if+you+fed+Hydrogen+and+oxygen+into+it&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GZEU_en&redir_esc=&ei=uZUiTMKeF4z00gS0_JH9BA

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hho+generator&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GZEU_en&redir_esc=&ei=vJQiTPSeN5m60gTx2rTsBA

hydrogen

http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/elem/elem001.html

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=is+it+practical+to+burn+hydrogen+and+oxygen+in+a+gasoline+engine&hl=en&newwindow=1&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GZEU_en&ei=OJciTOy3JYSi0gS11LTrBA&start=10&sa=N

That concludes the preamble

Now to pick you up on your description of the process.

Oxygen just adds to the heat of the explosion WHAT ?

You don't know much about combustion do you ?

Oxygen is the reason things Burn. no Oxygen no combustion, Try to light a fire in outer space

when the oxygen sensors in the exhaust read the unburnt fuel residue in the exhaust vapors the signals coming from these sensors going back to the computer cause the injectors to lean down or take some fuel away till it achieves a 14.5:1 Air fuel ratio in the exhaust for better exhaust emissions.

WRONG the clue is the OXYGEN in the word, the oxygen sensor detects the amount of oxygen not consumed by the combustion the amount of oxygen is directly proportional to the amount of fuel burnt, this information is used to control the fuel input

as well as more concentration of oxygen the explosion is therefore stronger and hotter and will burn the fuel more effectively leaving less unburnt fuel to come out of the cylinder into the exhaust stream.

Wrong again if you add more oxygen than is in the air already, unless you reprogram the engine management the effect of adding the extra oxygen would mean the O2 sensor in the exhaust would detect more oxygen in the exhaust than normal and would interpret this as an over lean mixture and would dump massive amounts of fuel into the engine to try and bring the oxygen in the exhaust down so as to achieve the correct stoichiometric level

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stoichiometric-combustion-d_399.html

An oxygen sensor, or lambda sensor, is an electronic device that measures the proportion of oxygen (O2) in the gas or liquid being analyzed. It was developed by Robert Bosch GmbH during the late 1960s under supervision by Dr. Günter Bauman. The original sensing element is made with a thimble-shaped zirconia ceramic coated on both the exhaust and reference sides with a thin layer of platinum and comes in both heated and unheated forms. The planar-style sensor entered the market in 1998 (also pioneered by Robert Bosch GmbH) and significantly reduced the mass of the ceramic sensing element as well as incorporating the heater within the ceramic structure. This resulted in a sensor that both started operating sooner and responded faster. The most common application is to measure the exhaust gas concentration of oxygen for internal combustion engines in automobiles and other vehicles. Divers also use a similar device to measure the partial pressure of oxygen in their breathing gas.

I appologise for my sarcastic approach but i find it so funny the way people misunder stand how modern computer controlled cars work

I stand corrected...........

The oxygen sensor does indeed measure the oxygen concentration in the exhaust and if indeed adding HHO gas into the engine will cause the exhaust to have more oxygen in it and cause the engine to run richer which is more or less what I was saying only a different round about way. The fact that I mentioned the ECM was richening the fuel mixture up when I add the HHO into the intake stream is what I was assuming. I have read up on Wide band and narrow band O2 sensors and I know how they work although I misinterperetted it in my write up..

I would think that all the oxygen would burn up in the combustion process when the ignition event occured when the fuel is ignited but maybe it doesn't consume all of it. That I really have no way of knowing.

The point is: Hydrogen is combustible. I asked a simple question and didn't deserve to be condemned by your little man syndrome attitude..

I have been in the automotive industry for a few years as a mechanic in the past and have worked with larger deisel truck engines for over 18 years.

I know that it takes oxygen to have a fire or a combustion event in the cylinder. I was stating a fact that more oxygen should create more heat just as it does with a cutting torch to cut through thicker metal and cause more power to help push a piston down.

I am not trying to replace fuel to run my vehicle. All I am trying to do is add enough HHO to supplement with a smaller amount of fuel to obtain the same power output therefore saving fuel useage.

I do not know all the in's and out's of the computer systems on automobiles and I am learning which is why I came on this thread to get some ideas. Not BS and put downs.

I would hope not everyone on this thread is as rude as you have been or I will be a short term guest of it.

Thanks for insiteful input.

I will admit I was wrong about the way I worded some of it but I do know engines other wise I wouldn't be teaching for an engine manufacturer.

Thanks

the oxygen content of the air is 21% it isn't all consumed during combustion

I would think that all the oxygen would burn up in the combustion process when the ignition event occurred when the fuel is ignited but maybe it doesn't consume all of it

I was stating a fact that more oxygen should create more heat just as it does with a cutting torch to cut through thicker metal and cause more power to help push a piston down

Sorry it doesn't work that way the amount of fuel will only need a certain amount of oxygen to burn adding extra oxygen without adding extra fuel will do nothing.

So sorry its nothing like a cutting torch.

You say your a mechanic of 18 years experience, Not experienced in the way the vehicles work i see.

I have come across a lot of mechanics who know nothing about the way the vehicles work which explains why a lot of them cant diagnose complex faults.

I am sorry if i upset you but you should really research your topic before asking questions that to most of us appear impossible.

as others on this site have stated over unity and other applications that suggest getting H2 and O2 from water is not a feasible idea as it requires more energy to get the gasses than burning the gases produces

I also have to challenge the amount of Gases you say your equipment produces it sound like a lot, and if you can indeed produce the stated amount then you have a really good system that should enable you to produce a really good system.

But from what little i know of electrolysis it appears to me to be impossible to achieve

My appologis for upsetting you but we do get a lot of really silly questions on here.

It's all good.

I do not know much about the chemical combustion process and how much oxygen is left over after combustion occurs in a cylinder. I do know that too much fuel ends up causing black smoke and unburned fuel and too lean causes lack of power and other issues.

Most of the systems sold are using 12 volts to make it easy to adapt to a vehicle. There aren't many 24 volt cars running down the road.

Using 12 volts and depending on the size of the hho cell as well as the amount of neutral plates and the voltage drop across each plate and the electrolite solution to increase the conductivity of the water the amperage can get quite high and demand alot of power to operate which would indeed cause the alternator to work harder.

Higher voltage and the same amount of resistance will lessen amperage (current draw) which is in Ohm's Law.

I was running a 12 volt system cell and at 40 amps of total draw on 2 seperate cells I was creating approximately 2-3 liters a minute. To me that wasn't very efficient.

I am guaging it using a 1 liter bottle submerged in water and filling it from the bottom with the gas till it floats up and the gas is coming out of the bottle top.

U tube shows the design plans for measuring the production and it does work better than a flow meter in my opinion.

My 24 volt set up while charging my batteries and alternator turning at 1400 eng rpm is at approx. 27.5 volts. The amperage dropped to 20 for both cells running and my production doubled because the voltage drop across each water passage increased slightly from 2.3 with 12 volts up to 2.7 with 24 volts which increased the voltage pressure flowing through each path and therfore increased my production of HHO with lower amp draw.

It is working well in my opinion and the gas is quite explosive when lit so I figure adding into a cylinder along with fuel to ignite the mix should create more power and therfore allowing one to lessen the fuel to get better fuel economy.

It could all be a hipe but at $60.00 a fill up once a week I figured it wouldn't hurt to try to build my own set up and play around with it.

I honestly feel if I can make the ECM see a "less oxygen" signal from the O2 sensors which is considered to be "rich" to the point that it leans the mixture I might could see a desired result and improved mileage without any hinderance to power.

I might be dreaming though.

I know there are cars that run on hydrogen and the amount it takes to run the engine is alot. I am not trying to run mine on hydrogen alone. I know my cell won't produce enough of it. I do not want to store the hydrogen in a liquid state that these such cars do. I am just trying to produce enough on demand that can be suplimented as an alternate fuel and improve the economy of my vehicle.

It has been an interesting project to say the least and has been fun experimenting with.

Thanks for the input.

If you want to save fuel and gain power on a gasoline engine you richen the fuel supply not lean it out. Around 12.9:1 is the power and efficiency range 14.5:1 is the cleaner emissions range.

Ask any off road enthusiasts or old school mechanics how they get improvements is fuel efficiency and power. In the old days when emissions compliance first came out for carburetted engines the common mechanics secret to improve the fuel mileage and power of a new factory vehicle was to increase the jet sizes by one or two over the emissions compliant ones.

Study up on "quenching effect of gasoline" if you want to know why a slightly richer than stoichiometric ideal ratio is better for fuel efficiency instead of worse.

If you want all of the supposed improvements that HHO is purported to have without actually wasting all the time, effort, and money on the HHO junk just build an O2 sensor signal re-calibrator. You can easily tweak your O2 sensors to make your computer run your engine at a far richer or leaner levels with just the turn of a simple knob if you build one right. I would bet good money that once you tweak the O2 sensor signals so that the engine runs slightly a richer than its factory setting you will get better fuel mileage and power while a leaner ratio will make it only get worse.

I agree this HHO BS is just that you can manipulate your O2 sensor and improve your gas mileage without the HHO. The amount of energy required to run your engine or even improve your mileage is just not possible, energy in versus energy out you will need a much bigger alternator much bigger than 24 volts. If you choose to attempt this anyway beware that leaning your engine can reuslt in major engine damage. I would check into all the web sites that warn against this with as much enthusiasm as those who are for it. In any case good luck.

Hello every one, please check dingel in youtube who claimed that he invented a device to run his corolla by extracting hydrogen and oxgen as fuel.

I don't even have to go there for me to say BS!

How do I say this without shouting? OK, well I guess I can't:

YOU CANNOT, YES, I SAY CANNOT, GET MORE ENERGY OUT OF A SYSTEM THAN WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT!

THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE WORLD WITH SOMETHING THAT JUST POPPED INTO YOUR HEAD WITHOUGHT DWELLING ON IT AND SUBJECTING IT TO HOW IT IS SCRUTINIZED WITH THE UNDERSTANDING OF PHYSICAL LAWS! (Sorry for the run-on sentence).

YOU CAN'T GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING!

WOULD ALL OF YOU IDIOTS QUIT TRYING TO CIRCUMVENT CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICS AND JUST DO THE MATH!

"Does anyone care to share their experiences about HHO."

In the mid 60s Popular Mechanics or Popular Science, I can't remember which,

had an article on this topic.

It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

But, it sounds like you're having fun playing around with it, so go for it.

Could you please explain how you get the vapor you talk about

the reason i ask is oxygen and hydrogen is color less and you would not therefore see it.

I am curious about how you prduced the vapor Thanks

Ok. I will explain it the best I know how.

It's called electrolysis of water.

If you take 2 pieces of stainless steel and attatch a 12 volt DC battery + to one plate and - to the other and gap them approriately apart and dip them in say a bucket of water with one gallon and one tablespoon of sodium hydroxide which is a chemical powder found in draino. The powder will increase the conductivity of the water to allow current to pass through it easier without as much resistance.

When the plates are dipped into the water and solution mix bubbles will start coming off. The reaction causes the water to heat up gradually which if left unchecked could boil the water and cause steam. The vapor seen could be a slight residue of the sodium hydroxide reacting during the process which does make the gas slightly visible.

It doesn't really have an odor and I wouldn't want tobreath it anyway but none the less if you capture this gas in a plastic bottle and ignite it you will see the result that this stuff could definitely be used to power a piston engine.

The space shuttle side rocket and main booster rocket is a hydrogen fule cell for Pete's sake.

What is water? H2O (hydrogen 2 parts and 1 part oxygen). When it combusts it is pretty much turned back into water.

Google it: HHO generator.

There are all kinds of videos on utube but not all are that efficient and some are quite worthless and not worth building in my opinion.

I built what is called a HHO dry cell design.

Just in case there is an element of truth in this subject here are some links i will be reading

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/truth-about-hho-hydrogen-generators-hybrid-fuel.html

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hydroxy%20Boosters.pdf

http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/node/215

http://www.magdrive.co.uk/specs.html

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hho+genrators&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GZEU_en&redir_esc=&ei=cO0jTPvRGoWM0gTmy5HrBA

Any one know anything about this guy meyer

http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm

HHO Generators How it all started By Stanley Meyers.

It would appear not to be elctrolosis but some form of molecule breaking, ie allowing hydrogen and oxygen to be split using electricity at a specific frequency, I havent studied all of the information yet and so cannot comment further

1. Stanley Meyer: Water Fuel Cell Eye-witness accounts suggest that US inventor Stanley Meyer has developed an ... This raises the granted patents to the level of independent, critical, ...
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Searches related to stanley meyer patents

stanley meyer water fuel cell

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If the generator does what they say it does the engine should run on this vapour as its hydrogen and oxygen.

but i would doubt that burning the H2 O2 would yield much power,Compared with a hydrocarbon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline The chart below is taken from this link and as you can see energy of hydrogen is only 10 compared with 32 with gasoline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

HHO is a misnomer, anyway, because what you get is 2H₂O → 2H₂ + O₂. When the basic terminology is wrong, quite likely there will also be other conceptual and computational errors.

It often gets worse than that. Some of these dreamers can't even do arithmetic properly, and some that can do arithmetic can't figure out correctly what arithmetic to do where. Or what constitutes a valid practical or theoretical test of anything.

To Dumej0803

ref research as you can see i gave your idea the benefit of the doubt and researched the idea, and all my posts on here have the best links i can find, some links support the theory some do not.

Most of the evidence available suggests it cant be done, Though there is a slight doubt, this doubt is about how Stans device actually worked, ie splitting water, but there is so far as i can find insufficient evidence to suggest it works, main reason for this if it did work, even with the oil companies trying to stifle it , the idea would have eventully got through, and it hasent.

I am still looking into the idea, but so far it doesnt seem to work.

Since the combustion step is the exact reverse of the electrolysis step, the energy released in combustion exactly equals the energy consumed in the electrolysis step,

and—even assuming 100% efficiency—there would be no energy left over to power the car.

In other words, such systems start and end in the same thermodynamic state, and are therefore perpetual motion machines, violating the first law of thermodynamics. And under actual conditions in which hydrogen is burned, efficiency is limited by the second law of thermodynamics and is likely to be around 20%.

More energy is therefore required to drive the electrolysis cell than can be extracted from burning the resulting hydrogen-oxygen mixture.

Taken from

http://www.biofuelmanufacturer.com/

A common fallacy found in connection with this type of modification is the mistaken assumption that cars generate excess electricity via their alternators that normally goes to waste and therefore is available for electrolysis. The amount of force required to turn an alternator or generator depends strictly on the electrical resistance of the circuits it is supplying, and residual heat lost due to friction. If an electrolysis unit is added to a car, the amperage it draws from the car's electrical system will make the alternator harder to turn, which will put additional drag on the engine. As a result more fuel will be required to maintain the same rotational speed (RPM

http://www.top-alternative-energy-sources.com/water-powered-car.html

really good video on Stans device

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67009/water_powered_car/

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/truth-about-hho-hydrogen-generators-hybrid-fuel.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_machines

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67009/water_powered_car/

Other HHO enquiries on here

http://cr4.globalspec.com/search/sitesearch?do=show&sort=textmatchrank&srch=hho&order=asc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HHO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation

Water was thrust into the scientific limelight this past April, when a team of scientists led by Anders Nilsson from the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center presented evidence that water is more loosely bound than previously thought.

The response has not been all that welcoming. "A lot of people have a very strong opinion about water," Nilsson said in a telephone interview.

At a recent conference on water, some of the attendees stayed up all night debating these results. Saykally was one of them. He calls the results from Nilsson's group a drastic revision of how water is understood.

"If they are right, they're going to win a Nobel Prize," Saykally told LiveScience.

But he doesn't think they are right. In the Oct. 29 issue of the journal Science, Saykally and his collaborators published results that contradict the revisionists' findings.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/041201_water_bonds.html

CR4 Admin: Modified Post

Copyright Violation: Reduced copied text according to copyright law. Please see Section 13 of the CR4 FAQ about posting copyrighted material.

For a darker view of water, see the Ban DHMO page

http://www.dhmo.org/

so the question is under what circumstances is it possible to break the molecular bond of water ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aRcO_974k0

i am looking for catalyst that will react with water.

what we need is to have external generation of hydrogen gas, and a gas storage/deliver system,. The H2 can be generated using solar cells or wind power to create the electricity to feed an electrolyis unit which will break down the water to H2 and O2 and even collect it. Eventually we will need to have a long term development of what I call the Solar/Gravitational Hydrogen economy. We will eventually be able to drive up to a service station and fill our car w/ H2 gas. This will power fuel cells to power electric motors at the wheels. If anyone wants to know more, they can email me at livagain1@yahoo.com HLG