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Anonymous Poster

Thermocouple Problem

07/27/2010 2:15 PM

Thermocuple type K installed on flare (100meter height) is not working, the reading is varying between 40 to 200 deg C instead of showing the ambient temperature,used the correct TC type extension cable and running down from element to FF transmitter for 100meter distance.

what could be the reason for spikes in the temperature reading?

found that TC IR value w.r.t earth is very less i.e 100kohm,

and TC loop resistance is 250ohm (between + to - wire)

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#1

Re: thermocouple problem

07/27/2010 2:44 PM

Is the temperature varying intermittently? It sounds like perhaps you have an intermittent short circuit (or junction open circuit) on either the thermocouple cable or extension cable that is causing the junction point to move and provide you with a measurement of a cooler spot.

Try checking the cables for mechanical damage. Additionally check the thermocouple and extension cable plugs and sockets to ensure the wires have not twisted together creating artificial junctions.

Be very careful if performing high voltage (eg- 500/1000V) insulation tests as you may damage the thermocouple cable insulation (which is generally not rated for these voltages).

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Anonymous Poster
#7
In reply to #1

Re: thermocouple problem

07/28/2010 6:12 AM

thanks.

there is one junction box in between which is located nearby the thermocouple;

on the JB , one side TC element cable is connected, other side extension wire is connected which is coming down for 100meter, used core size 0.22 sqmm,

IR tested using 100vdc,

reading is keep changing, going high to 200dec C and down to 40 Deg C this changes happen approx. 4 times in 1 hour interval;

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#8
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Re: thermocouple problem

08/22/2011 5:43 AM

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#2

Re: Thermocouple Problem

07/27/2010 3:47 PM

1. 250 ohms sounds a bit much to me.

2. What's your ignition system? HV?

3. What kind of "transmitter"?

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#3

Re: Thermocouple Problem

07/27/2010 4:03 PM

It isn't clear whether your measured temperature is 200° and the spikes are negative to 40°C or whether the measured temperature is 40°C and the spikes are positive up to 200°C. Which is it?

First thing I'd do is to remove the FF transmitter, substitute any device that reads thermocouple direct and determine whether the problem is the same (problem in the thermocouple and its wiring) or whether the temperature maintains a value (problem is in the transmitter).

If the problem is in the T-C or wiring, the thermocouple wire resistance seems reasonable. K wire resistance is slightly less than 2 ohms per meter for 20G wire.

JoAT's recommendation to check the wiring is valid. A shorted junction in the lead wire will show something close to ambient temperature. An open circuit will drive the xmtr's indication to whatever its fail-condition is, many times it is upscale, but there's always a choice of downscale.

If the problem appears to be in the transmitter, you might try to discover the maximum resistance that the transmitter can handle. I once discovered an analog temp transmitter that could only handle about 100 ohms of resistance on its input.

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#4

Re: Thermocouple Problem

07/27/2010 7:56 PM

Hello Guest,

All responses so far have good advice. Hopefully you can make it back here to find that some of these may help you.

You mentioned that this TC is for a flare and the readings you are getting at ambient are 40 - 200ºC. I don't know what you mean by flare. Is it a flame of methane gas as a byproduct of a sewage treatment plant? If so, is the normal service of the TC to measure the temperature of the flame?

The reason I am asking is an issue we had with our Regenerative Thermal Oxidizer (RTO). I had not been with this company but for a few months when the oxidizer was down with a bad thermocouple. I wasn't that involved yet and someone else fixed it. The combustion chamber temperatures are typically 800 - 900ºC, well within the Type K TC range. After a couple more months another of the 3 oxidation chamber TCs went out.

When I started investigating, I found that the TCs that had been stocked had SS-304 sheaths. SS-304 has brittleness issues above 500ºC. The susceptibility to brittleness caused deformity in the sheath and in turn, shorts and what not in the TC itself.

Somewhere along the line, someone had replaced the original Inconel-sheathed high-temp TCs with the SS-304-sheathed ones. We have since replaced with Inconel-sheathed and it's been 8 months. I'm expecting we'll be good for at least 3 years.

I guess what I'm trying to say is make sure your TC is properly spec'd.

Mike

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#5

Re: Thermocouple Problem

07/28/2010 1:26 AM

Any current carrying conductors in the vicinity of the TC cable run? AC or DC can both effect the reading.

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Anonymous Poster
#6

Re: Thermocouple Problem

07/28/2010 3:47 AM

Hey there!

Check all your connections start it the thermo head and the input slots, Make sure they are clean and not shorting or cross wired. Check the mv to the manufacturers chart for type K chart, this should correspond to the temperature at the flare tip of (given by another redundant thermocouple or accurate temperature instrument. If this fails try the middle Junction box in the loop and check for correct reading; Then by a process elimination by dividing the loop into half and half again/ you can find out which direction the fault is in the loop, Closer to the thermo head or closer to the rack/ i/p slots of your control system or indication. Visual problems are usaul seen by the naked eye such as evidence of corrosion , messy wiring Tampering or sand water in the junction box. Test with a Multimeter for continuity, correct signal voltage. If all a looks good/ finally check the upscale/down scale burnout functionsm, cold junction compensation and control system card. Be methodical and systemic, Mv Injection or a communicator can test this and loop checK! Visual faults are easier to find, common faults often occur around areas of vibration or wires subjected and open to the harsh enviroment or previous work or scaffolding (wiring damaged by the other workmen feet, knocks or machinery. I hope you find your fault.

Remember for sparking and mega checks multimeter you must have a hot work permit /gas test for the flare area to prevent ignition or explosion (take care)

Good luck with your fault diagnosis!!!

Snr Oil & Gas Control & Instrumentation System Engineer

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