A Puzzle in the Wiring?

Can only assume that current is flowing through the refrigerator then through the lights. The radio wouldn't pass enough current to light them, but the fridge would.

Lines badly crossed, somewhere! Maybe phases mixed, too. Wait for the guy with the asbestos gloves & the meter.

Apothicus; you must have 240/120 volts in the unit. it sounds like one of the main fuses are blown, other check is to turn off main breaker & turn back on. perry

The light and the recaptacle have apparently been wired in series (incorrect) rather than parallel (correct). For two loads in series, the voltage across each load divides in proportion to its resistance. The refrigerator is a low-resistance load, the light is medium-resistance, and the radio high-resistance.

I agree this may be possible as I have pointed out in my post that the old resident may have get it wired for Bed-Switch for lights in this room.

Regards.

This is only possible if both sides of the Split-Transformer are being used in the same building [North American Power distribtion system]

If centre-tap [called as Nuetral or Earth or Common lead] is opened both the sides loads 110-0-110 V come in series.

In our country where 3Φs in star with nuetral is distributed it happens if the N cable breaks somewhere on pole.

YES,

THERE IS A SHORT CIRCUIT IN THE CONDUITS, WIRES ARE MELTED, & CIRCUITS MIXED UP, NOW, NEUTRAL & EARTH WIRES PLAYING THE GAME.

YOU HAVE TO CHECK WHOLE WIRING INSTALLATION & CLEAR ONE BY ONE SWITCH BOARDS , BY KEEPING THE OTHERS OFF.

I agree with hero, sounds like a "lifted" or floating neutral.

I'm in agreement, it's a floating neutral.

This also means you're probably better off not running ANYTHING in the apartment unless you confirm that the outlet has 115vac across it, both without the refrigerator and with the fridge plugged in.

A recent incident that I witnessed while a friend, an apprentice electrician, was trying to replace the main breaker panel in a house. He didn't bond the neutral to ground. Of course, the center tap of the transformer was then grounded, but not connected to neutral. Depending on what was turned on in the house, any given outlet could have as much as 180 vac or as low as 60 vac. In the end, he fried several appliances and popped a few light bulbs. All in all it could have been worse, but I called it a learning experience for him.

The incoming bare wire in the service is not a ground, it's the neutral conductor. It should be connected to the neutral bar in the service panel, NOT the ground bar.

Depending on the jurisdiction and type of service, the ground connection should go either to a ground rod or to a ground clamp on the metal water service pipe on the street side of the water meter.

As you indicated, the ground and neutral bars should be bonded together in the service panel, but even without the bond, the damage would not have occurred if the service neutral had been terminated in the correct location.

Thanks everyone, I've advised the tenants to shut everything down, and I will be back here to dole out my GAs after the experts go through the place. All the replies have been helpful but I will give the GAs to whoever guessed at the actual problem. Knowing the type of worker that did the wireing its quite likely that everyone is right and there are multiply screwups problems.

Sounds like it could be a loose neutral wire in the panel.

Hope you get it resolved.

Considering the extent of "Roach" and other pestilence infestation you have had, may I suggest that you may also have "damaged" wiring and fittings in play.

Mice and rats love the insulation on electrical wires and they're not too fussy on what colours they chew on.

Roach excrement will cause carbon tracking if ther is enough of it in a light fitting or junction box.

I'm not saying that this is "The" problem but it may be contributing to your issues.

At one time I had a cheap duplex. There were strange electrical problems for a while. I had a electrician look at it and could not have the problems duplicate. I finally found a bad connection on one led of the 110-220 legs right at the meter box. I would have one leg go out under light loads. When the 220 volt appliances were on, some times it would work, and some times not. I would have half the 110 circuits dead at a time. Eventually I had both halves loose, and would sporadicly loose either half, or both halves.

I would suggest you have the qualified electrician start the checks all the way back to the meter box, or distribution point.

<< We repeated the process a few time, the outlet powers the radio without affecting the lights, but as soon as you plug in the refrigerator the lights come on. >>

Do you think the brightness of lights is OK with Radio plugged-in or a little dim.

Note: The Winding Techs/ Electricans use a socket in series of which they connect a bulb & use it as an indicator for continuity of their component under test.

I resume that the old resident has got it for a bed-switch for lights in his room.

I think that the supply to the unit is supplied by 2 seperate phases, lighing one, power on the other. You have a problem with the sub-main neutral and earth connection, probally at the Main supply panel suppling all the units.

Cheers

Joe

I agree neutral issue and probably a contributing factor to the difference is the clock radio is probably a 2-prong plug (no ground) where the refrigerator is a 3-prong plug with a ground.

Shawn

Another possibility... is the radio plug 2-prong and the refrigerator 3-prong? Sometimes in older buildings, there is the appearance of a true 3-wire system when in fact the earth ground is the same as neutral. If the radio is 2-prong, wiring oddities might not show up, whereas a 3-prong device might reveal these oddities.

If there is a 2 prong - 3 prong issue this presents a VERY dangerous situation. Easily checked with a non-contact tester. If the outer skin of the refrigerator make the tester grow, NONE of the system should be used until repairs are complete. The 2 prong - 3 prong issue should not manifest itself by the light coming on when the refrigerator is plugged in. Again, if the non-contact tester glows near the outer skin of the refrig, DON'T use the system until repairs are made by a genuinely qualified person. -- JHF

Borken neutral wire. -- JHF

As a temporary measure

install a cord drop directly from the panel through a breaker, assuming there is a proper ground & neutral. use the simple 3 light tester AH suggested to make the determination.

disconnect or turn off everything else until it can be sorted out

Rest assured that I took all your advice and warnings seriously. As soon as the first suggestions looked like there might be a danger to person or property I called the wife who is across the hall from the effected unit and had her shut everything down. No lights nothing plugged in, since early yesterday afternoon.

Licensed electrician will be on site tomorrow morning and until he/she gives us the OK everything will stay dark.

I will let you all know tomorrow exactly what it was and just how badly the previous guy screwed it up.

Hey what does this have to do with import/export & customs?

Absolutely nothing to do with import/export, unfortunately.

This is the ongoing story of "The condo from Hell"

Bought a condo last year and then discovered much to my dismay that it was being run by complete idiots and everythjing they had told me about it was basically a lie. Yes I have been the lawyer route but I'm stuck with it. So it was back to the lawyer and fight for control of the board. In April we won that battle and now my wife is the board president. Along with a few friends in the building we are going to turn it around and hopefully save our investment.

Every scrap of work done in the building in the last few years has been done by a friend of a friend of a friend if you know what I mean. There hasn't been a skilled or licensed worker in there for years. We have found a good plumber, working with an excellent exterminator (see my thread on roaches). http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/54183 beware the photos. The tenant responsible for those photos was our first eviction .......more to follow.

And we have hired the top condo lawyer in the city to guide the new board.

Now we just found some electrical .. ummmmm ..anomolies?

The most amazing thing about it all though is the absolute stupidity of most of the owners. They don't live there, they rent out their units. They know nothing about condo law, being a landlord, or tenants, it is amazing.

Our takeover of the board was less than friendly so we have major opposition from a small band of owners every time we try to do something. This has quickly become my OTHER job.

Good luck with your intrepid saga! Please keep us posted.

I've been following along on both threads

I follow most of your threads, they're always entertaining... a combination of detective work & technology

sorry to hear that the investment was less than you had hoped

live & learn

I have seen this one before !! Your light is wired in parallel but when they made up the wiring at the receptacle they wired it in series, hence when you plug in the refrigerator you complete the circuit, similar to turning on the switch.

I would bet that the problem is that they hooked up the black (hot) wires only to the plugs and lights, and connected all of the neutrals together except where the lights were on the end of the circuit and they had to use the white (neutral) wire.

Your circuit would be one contains series circuit, with the only way to power it up is to have something plugged in every receptacle.

Your stove could very likely be hoked up to the main power supply with no protection at all.

In a few areas they will install high voltage (240) breakers at the meter box with the main breaker, this would include the range,dryer,electric hot water heater and th Central air units.

Update ....

The company we hired to look into the electrcal problems sent us a journeyman electrician who seems to be qualified to do the job. The stuff he is discovering however has left him scratching his head, taking pictures and calling his boss who is a master with about 50 yrs experience.

So far he has found that we blew out a 50 amp fuse, this is the one located in the basement of the building where I guess the main enters and is split to supply each of the 27 seperate appartments. So this is the "main" fuse for this apartment. OK that has been replaced but it still confuses me why with this fuse blown there was still power in half the apartment.

He has also found,

• Ground wires not attached to anything,
• Three ceiling lights which in every other unit are controled by two seperate wall switches have been wired together.
• Various wires twisted together, no wire nuts used, just some tape.
• Connections made such as the above which come apart at the slightest touch.
• He mentioned a "red" wire being unattached in at least one outlet, is this the ground he mentioned earlier?
• He has still been unable to get power to some outlets and has some switches that seem to control nothing.

Needless to say he is not finished working in the unit yet and will be back today. I wouldn't be suprised if we see his boss with him this time and I expect he may be going to ask for permission to tear out some walls to see what is going on behind them.

He had a quick look at my place while he was there and said everything "looks" good. The work done in our place obviously not done by the same person. He said that our problem with the kitchen not being able to support more than 2 appliances running at the same time can be fixed by installing a 20 amp breaker instead if the 15 that is there now. Can you just raise the amperage like that without verifying that the wiring can handle the larger load?

If the wire is 12 AWG, it's good for a 20 amp breaker. Since some circuits require 20 amps, many contractors wire the whole project with the same type of wire to reduce labor costs & simplify ordering. The incremental cost of 12 vs. 14 AWG is usually small enough to justify using only 12 AWG.

the electrician will be able to tell the wire gauge at the main panel & the outlets in the kitchen.

the original wiring was probably done at a time when the price of copper low enough #12 was probably used throughout

We will check it all before making any changes. If the wiring is from the original construction it is probably #12, if it was done by the theives who ran the building for the last few years, who knows what it is? Probably a collection of whatever they could find in the nearest dumpster.

The electricans may check some of the wiring with a megger, which would probably detect the bad connections caused by missing wirenuts

the red wires are usually used for circuits with 3way switches or 240v

they may not tear up walls, but there will probably be some poking around in attics, basements & crawlspaces, removing light fixture, outlets

one of my pet peeves is the use of the push in connectors on outlets & switches. In my last house the lights in 1/2 the house would dim everytime the refrigerator ran. I ended up replacing most of the switchs & outlets so I could use the screw terminal instead. most times the power will daisy chain from one outlet to the next. If an appliance that uses real power [firg, ac, heater] a few push in connections down the line can be a problem. it is more work to use the screw terminal & push in connections are legal

so the above is just my preference

just like I generally tape wirenuts on, anywhere there may be vibration, just to be sure

Well what can I say, I guess everyone who suggested what the problem is/was is correct. We had an electrician in for a day, then 3, including a master for the next day, and finally the first guy had to return again because when they were all said and done, the stove outlet was still only putting out 110 instead of 220.

The place was a disaster just waiting to happen, basically everything had been done wrong that could be done wrong. When the pros left they were just shaking their heads.

It has now been rewired, up to code, and we have a certificate stating that signed by a licensed electrician. One unit checked, 26 to go. This "up to code" thing seems to be an entirely new concept to the other condo owners in the building. I guess it doesn't make a huge difference to them when they don't actually live in the building. The new condo board is now laying plans to have the entire building checked with the intention of passing the costs back to the owners of the units that fail the inspection.

I hope the electrician doesn't get in the way of the plumber who will be doing the same thing.

"The new condo board is now laying plans to have the entire building checked with the intention of passing the costs back to the owners of the units that fail the inspection."

Good thing! The last thing you want is having invested all that work into upgrading your electric to meet code, then your neighbors unit starting a fire because theirs was not!

Actually the unit we just did IS my across the hall neighbour. I had my unit checked when I bought our place. And when I refer to the "new board", that would be my wife (president) and 2 other "live-there" owners. It was a long nasty fight but we got control of the board in April and been discovering how poorly the previous board(s) operated ever since. If you look up "slum-lord" in the dictionary ....that is their picture there.

What has happened to the previous board members? Are they in Florida running for public office?

Actually no. But one of them is reportedly planing to run for president of Nigeria. I kid you not.

It is of course a very long story but most of the board members are guilty of nothing more than naivety. They put their trust in one guy (not a board member) who said he would take care of everything. We are looking, but with absolutely no record keeping done we doubt we will be able to nail him for anything. Even forensic accountants need something to look at.

Today is Tuesday, four more politicians were accused of taking bribes, kick backs, or "donations" from a construction company. Oh wait, its election time again. Time to refill the ranks.