Pool Chlorine Substitute

Hi Kramarat,

I don't have any personal experience, we always used the 3" tablets in a floater but here are some links you may find useful;

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_use_Clorox_bleach_to_chlorinate_a_pool

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_can't_you_use_household_bleach_to_shock_the_pool_since_it_has_the_same_active_ingredient_as_the_stuff_at_the_pool_place_sodium_hyptaclorite

http://x.havuz.org/viewtopic.php?t=1602

If you Google "can I use bleach in my pool" you get many hits.

Don't forget to apply the sunblock

Thanks KJK,

I intentionally skipped google. Last time I googled a pool question, I ended up dumping Oxy-Clean in there to eliminate rust, it worked for a few minutes and it was fun to watch the bubbles, but ultimately was a mess.

I think the members here are slightly above average and my chances of a GA are higher than google.

I looked at the Wiki link and very quickly the answers are conflicting.

Yes. Granular pool chlorine is in fact calcium hypochlorite, whilst liquid pool chlorine and household bleach are sodium hypochlorite. The effect is the same, except that household bleach is usually slightly less concentrated.

Sodium hypochlorite sold for pool applications generally has twice the concentration (i.e., twice as strong) of Clorox household bleach. Otherwise, they are identical, as noted by Holzfeller...

Another issue that needs to be taken into consideration is that chlorine does not generally stay in solution for very long- what isn't consumed in oxidizing the bad stuff tends to evaporate rapidly. Which is why floating tablets might be more appropriate for this application...

thank you for repeating what the previous poster wrote.

Thanks AH,

This sounds like the way to go. I'm assuming the tablets also won't leave behind as much residue as the powdered granular chlorine I'm using. I was aware that liquid bleach degrades fairly quickly in sunlight, but, it is a small pool.

I'll get some of these tablets.

PS I looked into your comment to me in the hi-fidelity thread, it made sense, thanks.

I guess I was feeling vulnerable because I didn't know what you were talking about. Couldn't tell if you were being serious or snarky. (Maybe a combo)

I never see residue.

A local pool store will be able to guide you. You really don't need much chlorine for that size.

Liquid is used in very many pools. The concentration is not what is important, it is the residuals measured. It is often dispensed using chemical pumps and a low concentration solution of 1% to 12% are common. Obviously the lower the concentration the higher the metering rate will be. However, the result of using liquid or solid is the same. It all comes down to how easy it is to apply for users.

Concentration is the issue.

It wouldn't do for the free chlorine concentration to exceed 2ppm or so.

These guys have alternatives to chlorine

http://www.ecosmartepool.com/

Thanks farmatt,

That looks a little over the top for a $60 pool, appreciate the thought though.

It may be worth giving them a call just to see the look on the sales rep's face when he arrives at my estate and sees the pool I need help with.

There are several alternatives to chlorine, most of which will be over the top for your pool. But if you fancy a bit of DIY, you might want to try knocking together a little in-line UV disinfector. UV lamps are not too expensive, nor the system very complicated. It won't eliminate the need for chlorine, you'll always need a residual level, but you can cut it down to a level where you won't know it's there. I don't know what is available these days, it's ten years since I was involved with pool treatment, but I recently saw a neat little UV system for domestic water from a well. Might be worth looking into.

Thanks Holzfeller,

If I'm not mistaken, a UV system would help with bacteria, but not algae, which is my primary culprit with standing water.

I do like your idea though, for my well water. That sounds like it would be a relatively simple DIY project. I will definitely look into it.

I have to admit to a certain level of ignorance here, but I'm not going to research further as I personally have no need at the moment, but what I say is based on what I learnt about ten years ago when we (the PTA) rebuilt our school pool, and I was given responsibility for the pump room and pipework.

You are absolutely right with what you say regarding bacteria and algae, and this is the reason a residual level of chlorine (or bromine) is required, to control other organisms and keep the water clear. I don't know what concentration might be required. You would have to look this up.

In fact, the problem is not so much the effects of standing water as the effects of sunlight, firstly on the degradation (oxidation?) it causes to chlorine (and the byproducts, I believe, are carcinogenic), and secondly on encouraging the growth of organisms such as algae. (This is is not such a problem in the UK, sunlight being a rare commodity, and our small pool was long since disposed of due to lack of use). I think you would probably achieve much just with a pool cover when the pool is not being used. You do not have the same problems with indoor pools or well-water.

I'll let you know if I find any useful info on wellwater systems.

My experience with UV lamps is a bit different- they are expensive, and have a relatively short life. Coronal discharge ozone generation is a possible alternative- one can get a portable unit with a bubbler stone much like ones used in aquariums for a pool this size for something well under $500.00. (I can be more specific in a private message- I don't want to promote any particular manufacturer in this public space). Ozone has even less residence time in water than chlorine, however, so needs to be used nearly continuously...

You can use bleach, but it will not work as long, since the powder is in emulsion and releases the chlorine gradually. Bleaching will become a daily job. I use quick kill on a weekly base (granulates) and every month 1 adjust the PH with some muriatic acid. I have no residue in the pool, only when I skipped the action for a too long time. The algae become residual, very light green but are easy to remove. Check also the discoloration effect on your plastics, before you decide.

There is a option use TCCA tablets or powder It has no residue.

Kramarat the answer is yes. Hypochlorite is hypochlorite in solid or liquid form and you must keep the residuals of free chlorine the same in each case. You should always monitor total chlorine and free and aim to always have a free residual. DPD testing is best. Combined chlorine is really a lot of chloramines that smell and sting the eyes. To overcome the combined you must add more and not less chlorine. The tendency is to use less chlorine when the pool smells but you really need more. It may be easier to buy lithium hypochlorite and mix it in a large plastic pail and dump that into the pool (I think that what you are doing ..broadcasting granular calcium hypochlorite. It dissolves slower and leaves deposits on the bottom).

Now if you want to leave chlorine out of the pool there are options. Ultraviolet light will not be a safe option and as pointed out ozone for small pools is very hard to generate enough residual without some sort of expensive generator.

I have been asked in the past to help a pool manufacturing company that wanted to use hydrogen peroxide. I managed to set up and operate a pool in my back yard (tax deductible) for a 12 year period. The peroxide I used was technical grade 35% available in 65 liter carboys ($70/carboy). I would pump a few liters and put it directly into the pool as needed. Each liter of 35% will give a 100 mg/L dose to 3500 Liters (935 gallons) of water. I would always target 100 or greater and let it decompose to 20 mg/L or very near it as a minimum low. The water was tested for HPC and indicator bacteria and was fine as long as the residual was >20 mg/L. There are test strips from www.mwater.ca that cost about $20.00/50 tests. These are simple dip and read. If the water temperature was less than 80 degrees F, the residual would last 2 weeks or so before I added more peroxide. Why go this route you may wonder?

Several reasons;

Pro:

1. Peroxide does not react with pee and sweat ergo no chloramines, no odour. No stingy eyes

2. Filtration is better and the need to vacuum is minimum. All the organic material floats to the surface.

3. Cost is not too bad when you consider you don't have pH issues. peroxide is the only chemical needed. I would occasionally use soda ash to up the pH but only because rain would drop it too low. Molds and algae like lower pH.

4. No ocular response unless the residual is over 250 mg/L

5. The combination of peroxide and uv from the sun provides superior disinfection at the surface of the pool.

6. The blond in the pool will be very blond

Con Side

1. Not approved for public pools (NSF) but not rejected. I could not find any adverse bacteria or chemical issues with peroxide. Private pools in my neighbourhood still use it.

2. The residual will drop quickly below 40 mg/L and needs to be watched carefully. It also drops quickly in water over 90 degrees f.

3. Some but not all vinyl liners faded with peroxide.

4. The blond in the pool will be very blond.

FYI

Interesting. I didn't know that the public can buy 35% peroxide. Where do you get it?

Also, as I remember there was a facility in the Carlingwood Mall in Ottawa that uses salt water instead of chlorinated, at least in the hot tub, but I think in the pool too. Will that not work? What are the parameters for that?

thanks Kevin,

Chris

There are several companies offering salt water systems for pools- Hayward comes to mind. Pretty simple, low maintenance, but initial equipment costs are a bit high...

I am not sure where in the Alberta area, but most industrial chemical suppliers will supply it. When I ran the water technology company we would buy it by the transport truck full. We used it in treatment of ground water and I extended it to swimming pools when I was contacted by a firm in New Jersey. It is sold as a liquid but you can also buy it in granular form. It will work in pool water equally well. All the granular came from a company in Huston called Solvay Interox and I am sure there web will be full of uses for it. The granular called sodium percarbonate is all food grade and is used in tooth paste and teeth brightening applications. It is very good for well applications where biofouling is an issue. The granular is about 30% available as peroxide so don't think you can make a paste and brush your teeth. It is very low concentrations in toothpaste ~0.015%. About $3.00/kg in 25 kg bags.

Technical liquid grade is generally cheaper but bulkier and harder to handle. It may be more expensive to buy a single carboy. I would use the granular if someone other than myself were to maintain the pool. One kg of the granular would treat 3000 litres of water at 100 mg/L. Anyway both should be available from local chemical supply houses.

Yes you can. Just make sure you calculate the correct dosage.

Thanks for the input everyone,

Tonight, she seems to be fine. It's dark, I fed her a couple of bottles of wine, I rubbed her back, she got buzzed, she told me I'm an a$$hole and went to sleep.

Priceless

In the morning, she will wake up, ask me why the hell I'm still awake, my response will be, "I'm trying to get the powder off the bottom of the pool and any answer that doesn't come from CR4 doesn't matter!"

Her obvious retort will be, " I'm hungry", to which I will reply, "Me too"

Quite frankly, this is an issue that I would like to have resolved and I appreciate your answers, and will utilize them, but I think she's really upset about her brother's wife having cancer, with about 2-3 months to live.

In the meantime, thanks. And I will get the dust from the bottom of the pool.

Sorry to hear about your sister in law. My sincere condolences.

Kevin

For your health I would never consider chlorine unless nothing else available. Check with your pool supply and see if they have Calcium Chlorite, It is used in municipal drinking water purification and is harmless as a matter of fact if is actually good for you. Some pools also use Hydrogen Peroxide another excellent germ killer and when used in proper ratio harmless. Too expensive is the silver solutions and again some commercial pools use ozone again harmless when used properly. For your health any thing but chlorine.

Chlorine from one source is different than chlorine from another source?

All chlorines are not created equal?

It's just bleaching powder and it does release chlorine: Ca(ClO)2

You are busy giving advice on something it seems you know nothing about.

You are correct I meant Sodium Chlorite My apologies to all .

your still stunned ... its still clorine .... Salt water still uses clorine to sanitize ... salt is added to water , then Zapped over electro plates to break it apart and create clorine ... an extremly expensive and labour intensive process

I am a comercial pool operator in Canada for a therapy pool at a hospital .. I use liquid bleach from a cleaning supply store (garanteed 10%) to sanitize the pool and because I keep the temp around 37C I keep a free residule of around 3-5 PPM .. a Ph of 7.4 with an alkalinity of aprox 100 PPM.

Ozone creation is dangerous and lethal ... its against the law in many countries to generate Ozone while the pool is occupied as it tends to form a cloud about 5" above the surface ...

I also have one of those Backyard inflatable pools .... and as said above Clorine will break down in it ... From UV light. You can add bleach to your pool no problem you will just need to stabilize it with Cynauric acid in a sock and put it into the skimmer.

Oh and you grandules arent breaking down because there is no flow ... change your filter and turn on the pump ... or your water is very cold and taking a long time to break down

Guest.

Your comments about ozone are very misleading, and contrary to information available from the US EPA water quality people, who recommend ozone disinfection over chlorine as being a more effective disinfectant than chlorine. Furthermore, byproducts of chlorine are suspected to be carcinogens. Chlorine gas is far more hazardous than ozone. Ozone generators are available from a number of manufacturers, designed for pool applications, and sold openly, not under the table as would be required were they against the law. Ozone is more widely used in Europe for water treatment than it is in North America, and I have never discovered any report of any danger or residual cloud above the water. Ozone has a very distinctive odor that can be detected at very low levels of concentration, so if the "cloud about 5" above the surface" were a fact, it would be easily detectable.

I refer you to the "EPA Guidance Manual, Alternative Disinfectants and Oxidants" for further factual information (including the critical chemical reactions) regarding the use of ozone for water disinfection. In this document, it is pointed out that ozone reacts very rapidly in solution, and thus its major shortcoming is a lack of residual concentration.

Can you provide a list of countries where ozone generation is illegal?

I clean out the filter daily and leave the pump running all the time. I suspect that if I was to analyze the residue, it would probably be primarily calcium.

Roy I think you are wrong on both cases. Sodium chlorite has uses in water treatment but only in the generation of chlorine dioxide. It is used where taste is an issue due to natural organics. The pulp industry also uses it. Very dangerous for pool operation and definitely not recommended. I do believe you are referring to calcium or sodium hypochlorite. You can find some instruction here on the use in chlorination of pools (yes it is chlorination).

You can chose between gas chlorination (Cl2) or liquid and solid chlorination. The gas chlorination is easier to operate and is used on large pools sometimes but very common in water treatment plants. The biggest drawback of course is the safety equipment required and training before applying it. Never used in domestic applications.Gas chlorination releases extra Hydrogen ions and thus causes a lower pH. Liquid or solid causes the release of excess OH ion and thus an increase in pH. Increases cause calcium to come out of solution.

FYI

Thanks for the condolences and advice. I'm liking the peroxide idea. Is it easily available in higher concentrations than what I can get at the store?

Is that the same stuff that has bomb making applications we have been reading about recently?

If so you might want to have a decent record of usage just in case the law comes calling.

Not really. Drugstores usually have access to reagent grade and it is very expensive. Call a local chemical company and they will lead you to where you can get either liquid or solid. I would likely use the solid for your small pool as it is safer and easy to apply. Same as my previous comment(s). Storage is easier as well. Solvay Interox will or should be able to provide local jobbers for both liquid and solid.

Hydrogen Peroxide is one of the disinfectants commonly used in hospital disinfectors for cleaning/sterilizing surgical instruments and glassware. Usually very low concentration, anout 3%-5%. I don't know if there would be any compatibility issues with a plastic pool.

Thanks for all of the interesting posts.

For now I think I'm going to just try the chlorine tablets in a small float, It's sounding like the slow release tablets shouldn't leave the residue, (which is substantial), that I'm getting now.

I got the tablets and the plastic float today.

Just FYI, the active ingredient is TRICHLORO-S-TRIAZINETRIONE, which I've never heard of, I guess it's just chlorine in anther form.

like this?

Yikes, I better be careful!

don't worry.. its an urban myth.

Good. Trichlor is relatively easy to operate and has a low pH. Low pH is good as it helps keep any calcium in solution. Just watch the pH closely. It is still hypochlorination and will release OH ions. If you notice calcium coming out of solution as white deposits, check the pH and if it is high add muriatic acid to lower it. If it is low add soda ash to raise it. Good luck and good choice for your pool.