Building with ABS Pipe

I'd have gone for the Bamboo option.
I've not seen longer joints, but could you machine them out so the pipe will go right in* and meet the other pipes where they join so you'll get a butt joint and sleeved joint combined?

Del

*Just in case you don't understand my explanation. In a T pipe join the pipes don't go right in else they'd block other brach of the T.

Thanks for the info Del., I myself just had a Eureka moment and have taken 1 1/4 ABS and Split some 1 1/2 ABS, The 1 1/2 is split into 2 separate pieces then since it is too large to go over the 1 1/4 it is glued to the 1 1/4 it makes an ABS plug that will just slide through the 2" it is glueable since it is made of ABS and by making it a foot long it should take all pressure off the joint. I'll let you know how it works out

What is actually failing, i.e. is it:

1. The pipe near the fitting,
2. The fitting itself, or
3. The adhesive?

Dear John: The pipe popped right out of the T although it was glued but the pipe only goes in a little less than 3/4 of an inch. The pipe and "T" are still intact.

If the pipes and fittings are intact, it sounds like you need better glue! We had some problems with plastics assemblies (not sure it was ABS, but it had similar properties). Some stuff fell apart with the first "recommended" adhesive. Second attempt gave unbreakable joints.

Did you give the surfaces a good key?

Adhesive problems or not, I like the idea of spreading the load as per your #3.

Look for sites that sell parts and plans for awnings and greenhouses. Many of these are designed to be made with PVC pipe, and they use different fittings than you would find in a building supply store. If they are designed to withstand wind loading they might be quite strong.

Dear Jeanne: Thanks. I was unaware of such a usage. If you come up with a name or E Mail address please notify me. I will look here as well.

http://www.creativeshelters.com is one such site.

Thanks Jeanne: I will let you know what I find

Those PVC fittings are furniture grade fittings. The socket depth is the same as sch 40 plumbing fittings. Furniture grade have chamfered exterior ends and no flashing marks or manufacturer markings on them. These are the fittings that are used to assemble PVC lawn furniture.

Greenhouses use electrical EMT or comparable galvanized metal tubing of fractional size (o.d.) as framing for hoops and other field type structures. These structures are a hybrid between a jig-saw puzzle, an explosion in a metal tubing warehouse and an erector set held together with self-drilling sheet metal screws.

ABS piping/fittings is not intended for structural strength is your problem. The fittings are not available with deeper sockets because there intended use doesn't require them. ABS piping gets its structural strength from the structure that it is hung or strapped to.

Are you using a true "ABS primer" to prep the joints or just a combination product? Are you using a true "ABS adhesive" and not a combination product? Are you following the manufacturers directions for surface prep, open joint time, twisting fittings as you assemble, etc.? These rather small but extremely important items make the difference.

good Luck, Old Salt

Dear Old Salt: Thanks for the input I am just using the stuff availabe at my local plumbing supply store. I have followed the instructions to the best of my ability and recognoze the difficulty now with the system. I am trying the inserts next I described earlier and will keep you posted. Quad

you can also drill and bolt/wire through the zone where the pipe is inside the socket. so you get a mechanical as well as glue joint. Otherwise, follow del's suggestions and deepen the socket.

What type of axle are you using, and how many wheels. Those walking beam axle systems are excellent at reducing shock.

good luck

Chris

Dear Chris: The cart has two wheels walking beams are a little complicated for me. The axle is 5/8 cold rolled steel with 16 inch wheels. The axle is contained by a 1 1\2 inch ABS pipe with a cap at each end and a "T" to take it vertical there is another cross piece for lateral support half way up. The weight transfer comes through a milled piece of oak drilled to take the axle inside the ABS and screwed in place with self tapping screws. Crude but working well so far. Thanks for your input

Dear Chris: The axle is 5/8 cold rolled steel with 16 " wheels. The axle goes through a series of oak pieces milled to fit inside the 1 1/2 ABS and drilled to take the steel axle. The oak has been screwed in place with self tapping screws the axle pipe ends are capped and drilled to fit the axle with "T"s at each end taking the weight from the top with the oak transferring the weight to the axle. There is another cross piece above the axle for added laterat support. Quad cart

What a great idea!

However, maybe choosing ABS was your mistake. I think ABS was the first plastic used by the plumbing industry and then dropped in favor of PVC and CPVC.

Maybe PVC would have a better bond, and as a construction material how about Schedule 80 PVC?

Schedule 40 PVC is white, Schedule 80 PVC is gray.

Dear Coldspot: The problem has not been with the integrity of the material but rather the joints. I still consider as does the plumbing industry consider it superior to PVC particularly the schedule 40 you describe which is all I can access here. What I should havre used was bamboo unfortunately it is not readily available in rural Northwestern Ontario and quite frankly I have not worked with it so don't know how to make proper joints. There have been several suggestions that I will iimplement and report back. Thanks for your input. Quad cart

Good morning quad caer.

Long ago the gas industry switched from ABS to the superior properties of PVC. As a minimum, use only Schedule 40. When joining, roughen the surfaces of both the pipe and the fitting with coarse sand paper. Appy primer to the fitting first, then the pipe. Immediately follow with the cement, in the same order. These products must of course be intended for PVC. Insert the pipe with a twisting motion, and hold for at least 1 minute.

I stand corrected in comparing ABS to PVC. I can see how PVC may be more brittle than ABS, which would be a desirable characteristic for many applications. Now I recall someone else once saying ABS was better than PVC.

I think the 'bell and spigot' ends of pipe used for plumbing are what they are, and you will not find any variation of spigot penetration into the bell end.

As always, proper assembly technique is very important as 'flyinghigh' outlined.

While it may not be the best material, schedule 80 PVC should be available at electrical supply houses. Bamboo, like cotton, wool, and even whale oil, sometimes natural substances are hard to beat.

I think the brittleness of the PVC might be a factor for the local plumbers preference particularly in cold climates like ours. We are in cottage country with lots of people exiting for the winter and letting the cottage defend itself from the elements. Regarding Dels suggestion to make the aperture deeper to accomodate the pipe going through since the "T" does not carry a liquid. These fixtures have a flange to take the pipe at the end just a little longer than the 3/4 depth of the aperture for the pipe. If you were to somehow ream out the inside to take the pipe all the way through you would just have the flange remaining or a very thin skin indeed and I suspect a not very strong fixture at all. I am going to Town tomorrow to get more 1 1/4" pipe to make inserts for all the load bearing joints as well as 2 more 2" threaded couplings so I can access the last two joints at the head end that would be otherwise inaccessable. This will make all lengthwise joints pretty much bullet proof. I am reinforcing the entire length of the tongue in similar fashion I will keep you all posted as regards my successes and or failures. Others may benefit from my initial mistakes as well as your cunulative knowledge and experience and I thank you all for your help and interest. I am also concerned with another aspect. I used 1 1/2" for the cross braces so I could use drain connectors to take the entire thing apart for transport inside my truck. If I used threaded couplings like I am using to go lengthwise both ends would be fixed and as a result you couldn't twist them apart. In retrospect I shoud have used the threaded coupling at one end and a quick release pin at the other. I also put a set of rollers on the rear cross piece to expedite loading by putting 2" pipe in 5 inch lengths over the 1 1/2 inch with a standard coupling at both ends allowing them to roll on the 1 1/2". We willl see if there is any benefit once the other inprovements are complete. I may still have to resort to a switch to the method of threaded couplings and pins for the cross braces if the drain couplings aren't strong enough. I would also make a wider wheelbase if I were to make another one. The axle is 40 inches long but I would go wider up to 48" so I could go higher with the canoe or kayak without risk of tipping. It would mean less risk of bottoming on steep ups and downs. Live and learn. When it is done I will write something up with all the improvement suggestions that you all have helped with as well as pictures. It should make al the little lakes that are available for ice fishing on snowmobiles in winter available to me in summer as well. The next step is to make one the width of the railroad track deflate the tires a little on the Quad widen the axle length on the Quad to track width to go on the rails and get a train schedule allowing access to Lakes from one end of the coutry to the other. Just joles if any of you are railroad police. Quad cart

I'm not sure if you picked up on my suggestion earlier for pinning the joints.. as well as gluing them? (I'm showing drilled holes...)

Chris

Have a look at this thread, it might give some ideas for possible ply wood or ply/bamboo construction.

Wooden joints bound with linnen thread over a coat of wet epoxy and then with epoxy rubbed in are V strong. (pics 3,4 & 5 in this thread)
Del
BTW, I've seen ABS Ts which weren't stepped in any way so that reaming out the bore would be fine. I can see a Y might give problems.

Thanks Del: I am committed to finishimg up with the ABS but in future will consider the bamboo for any projects. I'll keep you posted. I see neither of us sleep. Quad

To all who offered solutions I thank you. The cart is complete. I found that the use of the split 1 1/2 glued over the 1 1/4 was invaluable not only as reinforcement at the joints but to reduce flex throughout. I used it extensively and would recommend anyone fool enough to attempt this to use it throughout from the get go. I used 1 1/2 inch drain couplings as connectors initially with some remaining because they can be disassembled with both ends fixed. They are not very strong from a structural point of view and where they broke down. I replaced with quick release pins at one end with standard male female connectors at the other. If it was a do over I would expand the wheel base using a 48 inch axle use 2 inch throughout reinforced with the plugs dexcribed earlier. I would have put in 45 degree angle braces using the 1 into 3 fittings immiediately above the axle giving a wider area supported and allowing a lower cart and lower centre of gravity then put the reinforcing cross piece at the very top paralelling the axle just below the load beams. I used Dels advice on filing out the inside of the fittings using standard connectors as a sliding collar to hold the bottom of the 45 degree cross braces with standard male.female connectors at the top end. I would have added another cross brace between the two load beams as well. I did not us a tongue but rather a rope sling around the rack on the cart. The cart is now complete it works well but in rough terrain and across a slope a wider wheelbase would improve it. Old salts initial comment was dead on about the pipe being meant to convey a fluid not for structural purposes was dead on and without the inserts it would have probably failed. The amount of ABS and glue with the use of the plugs tripled the material and cost. My fear is that someone will see it and unknowingly attempt it without the plugs since they are concealed inside. The cart can be dismantled but reassembly takes familiarity and time. I haven't used the screws to reinforce the joints becatse the glued in insert plugs seem sufficient but if there is a requiement later I will implement it. Thanks to everyone who expressed an interest and offered an opinion. Quad Cart If I knew how I would send pictures

Whether it is bamboo, ABS, software, or rocket science, engineering is still a empircal science. It is really tough to get it right the first time!

Looks like it does the job - well done!

Thanks again for everyones input. Quad Cart

looks great. I think you will have to treat it gently in the cold weather...

where are those lakes? very beautiful. looks like ontario to me..

Chris

Dear Chris: Thanks. You are bang on it is definitely Ontario but barely into it from your end. I am on a feeder lake for the Lake with the most shoreline in Ontario and it isn't Superior. I am closer to you than Toronto.

Dear Chris: I bravely took the cart for an off road. and really a no road ride about in an old fire burn full of rocks and stumps and some new growth as a more rugged test run. I don;t want to be portaginh out both canoe and cart. THe wheelbase was the largest problem with difficulty turning in confined areas. I caught a small tree with the wheel assembly and popped loose not only the assembly which ws o.k. because I hadn't installed pins yet, but also one of the joints on the left load beam. I have now opted to use your advice on using screws to further reinforce the joints and feel credit should go where credit is due.. I am using 3/4 inch hex head self tapping automotive screws 3 around each joint one on the bottom and the other two splittimg the circumference into thirds. I just put in 100 and ran out so I will need to make another trip to town tomorrow. Thanks again for your input. Did you figure out the Lake yet. A feeder for this lake on the west side by way of an aquaduct provides the drinking water for the murder capital of Canada. Perhaps it is in the Water this lake is home to Massacre island site of the murder of Jesuit Father Aulneau anf Sieur de Laverendrye\s oldest son Jean Baptiste in 1776. It is also where you will find the most Northerly point of the United states that was not purchased from Russia. I digress. I will keep you posted. Quad Cart

The Lake of the Woods

Quite a place.

Dear John: Dead on! it has the most islands of any lake on earth 14,000. More shoreline due to the islands than any other lake on earth. Borders two provinces and one state It separates the Northwest angle from Northern Minnesota making the angle the most Northerly part of the U.S. excluding Alaska. Bye for now. So why do I want to get to any other lake because there are thousands of them with the most disarrayed drainage in the world as well. Not a bad place to be.Quad cart.

65,000 miles of shoreline - gonna take a few week-ends to get round that .

Do you fish?

Excuse my ignorance, but does it freeze up?

Dear John: Not only does it freeze up but there are ice roads that avoid channels that allow you to drive the 60 plus miles down to the U.S.. There are ice fishing shacks scattered around that people fish from and party in all winter. The bulk of the island construction takes place during the Jan to Mar time window because all the lumber can be trucked out. We get temperatures down to 40 degrees below and at that temperature Celsius and Fahrennheit are the same Cold Brrrrr. There are also snowmobile trails that will take you to the U.S. Nice place to visit. Quad Cart.

Jeez - that must be somewhere in the New World .

Must come & visit sometime.

Dear John: E-mail me at the single malt nearest to Balmoral castle separated by a dot with hotmail.com. -----.---------@hotmail.com. It is my favorite and my E mail.