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Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 11:22 AM

My chemistry teacher and I had a mutual interest in my learning the subject. The interest was none. I did like the sciences when it came to mathematics. Terms like "empirical data" and "statistically significant" meant a great deal to me. The connection between math and chemistry was sadly lost which meant that some very obvious facts were not connected by me for a long time.

Earlier this year, a customer gave me a lesson in something that I should have known. A major customer for our water source heat pump hoses* had stated for years that they couldn't use our product because they rusted. Our product is ChamFlex® and has proven to be one of the most reliable products on the market for over three decades. Whenever we were confronted with this rejection, I lacked the empirical data to substantiate my belief that there was nothing wrong with our hose. The problem that they presented is called galvanic reaction. That's a nice name meaning rust. When two dissimilar metals come in contact, they will start the galvanic reaction. There have always been ways to inhibit the rusting and that requires metal coatings. What I did not know is that there are other ways to slow the reaction by controlling the conditions. Here is how it works:

The galvanic reaction has to do with the transfer of electrons and the different charges in the molecules of the metals. Don't ask me for a better explanation. Like I said, chemistry is not my strong suit. This transfer of electrons is visible when it creates rust. The transfer occurs because electrical current is going through the dissimilar metals. I'm guessing that similar metals just transfer the same number of electrons back and forth so they look the same anyway. The dissimilar metals will rust slower if there is less electrical charge. I'm told that the charge is less when things are ph balanced. Now I know ph balance from shampoos and never understood how that helped my hair, but I hadn't applied that to hoses. Hoses carry water. Water is a great conductor. Are you seeing the picture here? It sounds to me like anybody's hose will rust, but it will rust slower when the water is ph balanced. The guy that never liked my hose said he had big problems one time when he used our product because it caused galvanic reaction. I couldn't wrap my head around the real problem. Why my hose and not others? Then a customer told us what he thought happened. It has to do with something that nobody told us about for 30 years. It's called an acid wash. Apparently, when an HVAC system is first installed, it may be subjected to an "acid wash" procedure. I found out that the equipment manufacturers have written procedures that our customers follow to do an acid wash. Acid is not ph balanced. It's acid! I do recall something about acid vs. alkaline and know that ph balanced is neither one nor the other, but balanced. Our customer felt that this guy who never liked our product had done an acid wash but forgot to flush out the acid. When everything started rusting, he decided to blame my hoses to maybe cover his tracks. I was trying to figure out how my hoses could cause a galvanic reaction when all that time I should have known that it doesn't. In fact, our hoses may inhibit the reaction because of the coatings which comply with North American and European guidelines.

Now you think I'd have found a new interest in science. Unfortunately not. I'm still stuck on why that guy won't buy my hose. What are the odds that he can be convinced?


* Commonly known as WSHP hoses and used in commercial HVAC applications.

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Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 11:32 AM

50:50.

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#2

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 11:42 AM

You need disimilar metals, contact and moisture to produce galvanic corrosion.

You only need moisture and iron containing materials to produce rust.

So, what is it?

Since you don't give any meaningful information about materials of construction it's hard to help.

Search for "electromotive series charts" and find out how far apart your materials are, presently.

You should also Wiki "galvanic corrosion" and read that, too. That will help you understand the mechanism involved.

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#8
In reply to #2

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 2:00 PM

would that be moisture or an electrolite solution? P911

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 2:21 PM

For purposes of this discussion I believe they are the same thing. Unless you are dealing with distilled water. I believe that even pure water will become an electrolyte soon enough if it condenses on a metallic surface. An ion here , an ion there, pretty soon your talkin' real electrolytes.

Where's Milo?

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 3:08 PM

terminallogy

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 10:12 PM

Milo was teaching his Critical Thinking class tonight.

I thought that 50:50 answered the only part of that which was posed in the form of the question.

The rest of the words there showed such lack of imprecision at best / lack of understanding that I decided to abstain. Given facts: the connection was between metal a and Metal B and they were/were not separated by a barrier film of... were plated with... formed a conductive link... insulated by teflon tape... sacrificial material in the... etc. etc...

Then we could get into problem solving mode.

In the absence of facts, we're learning to abstain.

Milo

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 10:24 PM

As usual I agree with you. But I don't like those odds. I'd say it's more like 70:30 against.

You realize that typographical abstinence is very difficult for me, even in the absence of facts. I think I'm suffering from typo mania! I just can't keep my hands off the keyboard.

HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 10:41 PM

I don't like those odds either, but with no facts to base the conjecture on, 50:50 is proper response. If one makes assumptions about the sales approach based on the Original post, then 95:5 against is likely. (successful salesmen do much more listening than talking...)

Generally, I follow Pareto 80:20, but only if I can look at the data. One can always divide the classes such that 80:20 turns up in the results <giggles and remembers MBA stats and sample size class work...>

The discipline of getting out a blog 3 days a week on top of everything else has made me look at my online activity as a conservation problem. Given a finite amount of opportunity to post, what can I post that will be of greatest benefit/interest? So unless there is a critical safety issue, I am finding it easier to say "Pass."

Thanks for the shout out.

Milo

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Anonymous Poster
#3

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 11:46 AM

You do not state which metals are used in the hose. But whenever dissimilar metals come in contact with each other in the presence of an electrolytic solution, a galvanic cell will be created.

Take a look at the galvanic series and determine the properties of your electrolyte.

Typically a sacrificial anode of a least nobel metal (zinc) is used to give up electrons thereby protecting the other lesser noble metal in a galvanic cell (i.e. bronze and stainless steel).

You customers are correct. Your product is prone to this very well known problem.

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Anonymous Poster
#4

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 11:54 AM

I'm sorry, is this actually a question or just a long apologetic-themed advertisment for your hoses?

All of your other posts at CR4 have been either an outright or vague advert for your product. I'm just trying to figure out if this one is also. If it is, frankly I lost interest about half way through. Please edit for length and content.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 12:02 PM

Not posed as a question. It is a discussion on galvanic reaction.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 12:34 PM

I'm assuming you are the OP.

So, there is no discussion on galvanic reaction. You have not identified any materials nor confirmed if it is corrosion or rust.

My advice to you is to go over to the commercial side and hawk your wares there.

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#6

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 12:12 PM

"What are the odds that he can be convinced?"

Convinced of what? If I have understood your lead in, someone in the downstream chain "...never liked our product...".

Personally, I do not care for General Motors products. Their constant advertising is futile; I will never purchase one.

A demonstration of your grasp of science will probably convince him of nothing.

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#11

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 5:51 PM

I'm still stuck on why that guy won't buy my hose. What are the odds that he can be convinced?

It's simple:

1) How much of your hose do you think he will buy? If it's a large amount, go to question 2).

2) How much are you willing to give him, for free? Decide that and go to question 3).

3) After you've given him some free hose, what low, low price will you give him as a one-year offer he can't refuse on more of your hose?

If he's interested, he'll negotiate. If not, stop wasting your time and tell him you'll make the same offer to his competitor. Then...walk...away.

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#12

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 6:07 PM

that acid wash is also called pasivation.

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#16

Re: Galvanic Reaction

08/31/2010 11:54 PM

"I'm still stuck on why that guy won't buy my hose. What are the odds that he can be convinced?"

Marketing 101: Solve the customer's problem (and you'll have your answer!)

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Galvanic Reaction

09/01/2010 8:02 AM

Good response! Thank you for your intelligent response and not bashing my post.

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