Building Codes and Standards for School Buildings

You may have answered your own question. Unions have a lot of swing on how things are done and the main goal is putting people to work, even if the work is not in the public's best interest.

Unions don't have a lot of swing around here. Texas is a right to work state. And no, the main goal is to line the pockets of the two or three engineering/architect/GC firms around town that seem to do all of the work. Gilbane, Spaw-Glass, and Tellepsen are the three that seem to get all the work. Gilbane has been found to be putting their own people up to run for the school boards, funny how that works out isn't it?

The reason I ask the question is that I'm seriously considering running for the local school board and I want to have my cost projections and business case airtight before I start busting heads.

Rorschach - I work for Gilbane and am surprised to see your post. Please tell me who the people Gilbane has been "putting up" to run for school boards

http://redinktexas.blogspot.com/2007/09/taking-one-for-team-gilbane.html

http://redinktexas.blogspot.com/2007/06/incest-for-fun-and-profit-part-one-of.html

NHMCCD is the old name for what is now the Lone Star College District on the north and west side of Houston.

Actually I was wondering if the building methods might be hold-overs from the cold war, with an eye towards nuclear blast survivability.

The last 4 school projects I have been involved with (1 new build and 3 large additions) utilized this type of wall construction.

Your cost figure and time to completion are right on the money. And yes, they were all done by union brickies, tin knockers, sparkies, ect. which was required per the project specifications.

As far as union labor, it is my understanding that when federal and/or state money is involved, union labor is mandatory. At least that is how it is in my region.

Each of the four projects mentioned above were of the type of construction (walls) that you observed.

The exterior walls are cinder block (finished on interior surface side) with a brick face (outside).

Interior walls in common areas are finished cinder block that is painted prior to occupancy.

Drywall is only used in offices (tiny percentage of overall project)

Tornado walls are usually interior hallways and these are typically double block.

I asked the same question as you did here, on one of the past jobs. I was told that this was the most secure type of wall construction for a school structure (don't know if this is a fact, just telling you what I was told).

I don't know if this wall type is a federal requirement but the last four schools were designed under different engineering firms and they were identical wall types so there must be some standard that is followed.

In fact two of the schools that had an addition put on were built in the early 1970's. When the existing walls were being demo'd to accommodate the new addition, the existing walls were also of the same construction (cinder block/brick).

I probably did not answer your question but wanted to share what my experience has been with these wall types.

As far as the design being a holdover from the cold war era, very possible!

Just be thankful the specs don't require Incan stonemasonry techniques...?

[A middle school in my former town must have had a ton of bricks left over; they made a stand-alone entry like a miniature Arc de Triomphe. It probably now serves as a semi-sheltered outdoor smoking lounge.]

Anything that's built by government, federal, state and local is going to be high dollar. I can understand your frustration. They just built a water plant near me, I think the total was 200 million. It's got decorative brick work all over and beautiful sweeping arched roof lines......the only problem is it's not open to the public and most of it is hidden from view.

They could have built the same facility with concrete block/tilt up and hot mop roofs for probably 20% of what they spent. The only reason I can come up with for this, is that it's really fun to spend other people's money.

The worst part is, we see this stuff happening all over, and the next thing you know, they want to raise taxes.

Lots of interesting discussion here. All my comments here are based on my experiences with schools in the USA.

Most schools serve a geographic area. This area may be an entire county, or it may be a few dozen city blocks. There is usually a pride amongst the residents of the area in their school buildings and ancillary facilities. I have seen many schools deemed to be antiquated or prison-like, and the populace overwhelmingly voted to demolish and replace with a new, stylishly decorated, state of the art building, some complete with a natatorium (a real rarity/luxury in rural Wyoming!).

A building funded in part with federal dollars must pay workers per the Davis-Bacon act. This scale is usually pretty close to union wages. So, that is the law.

Building with Concrete Masonry Units (CMU) is a proven method for a facility requiring long life under hard use. Tilt-up has advantages, but versatility is not one of them.

As far as expense, I routinely sell complete frame, door and hardware assemblies to schools that are $4,000 USD for a 6'0" wide pair. That is not installed, and not painted. Four thousand bucks for a standard size door! It does not take long with current mandated standards to rack up a pretty expensive school building.

All of ours have natatoriums now. Even the JUNIOR HIGHS! geez! Does ANYBODY parent their kids anymore!?

As far as versatility goes, these buildings generally don't get reconfigured, they often do get wings added on later, but that is still quite doable with tilt-wall.

The Davis Bacon Act has got to go. As does the NLRB and Public sector unions. let the states deal with it. even the local unions hire scab labor to build their union halls and to protest/picket.

IMHO that is the key... Return the education systems to the state level... Fed govt is way outta hand!

Hmmm. "Return the education systems to the state level... Fed govt is way outta hand!"

I trust the state boards less than the Feds. how would you like "Intelligent Design" taught in science class, for example.

It's funny how the actual education received by students has dropped like a stone since the feds have taken control. I do not share your enthusiasm for Federal Control at all. And if intelligent design is taught alongside Evolution, then I have no problem with that. Increasingly, physicists are finding that the fundamental structure of the universe DOES appear to be optimized for the development of life on a fundamental quantum level so the theory might not be as far off as you might think.

Boy, that would just be aaaaawwwwfffulll!

I couldn't think of a more terrible thing than for the young brains full of mush be exposed to an alternative point of view, that is just as legitimate/credible from a scientific point of view, as evolution.

Heaven forbid we just present information and let the listeners/learners come to their own conclusions without being brow-beaten for coming to a different conclusion than most of the liberally educated teachers who have been brainwashed with evolutionary ideology.

Education should be ripped out of the power hungry hands of the Feds!

GA for lynlynch.....BINGO! Now there's a Science served up in churches nationwide! LOL

_{Hope I don't get struck by lightning now.}

Duck 'n cover lyn, duck 'n cover! LOL

Therein lies the rub eh? You just can't be certain can you?

I don't claim to have the knowledge, or the answers.

Here's what I do believe.

I believe that no benevolent deity would produce a world so full of suffering and unnecessary death as this earth on which we live.

I'd rather believe that it's the result of a random sequence of events, not the product of something that people worship.

That's just my opinion.

Cheers.

_{(Sorry, I'll get back on topic now, except I don't know anything about building masonry buildings either.)}

One issue that may be driving building standards for public facilities may be that they are required to be suitable for disaster relief shelters- Houston being in the eye of the occasional hurricane, this is not a function one would want to skimp on. While there may be less expensive alternative construction methods, getting these certified as safe havens during a disaster may increase the overall costs significantly.

The construction materials and the method of construction are determined by the Architect, within the boundaries of the building code.

The Architect gets paid as a percentage of the construction cost.

ENOUGH SAID.

You are probably not that far off the mark. When in doubt, follow the bouncing buck...

On the other hand think of China and the kids killed in the shoddy school collapsesduring the earthquake not long ago. Woody

While unions are always a big problem in constrution the major reason for high costs in building schools and hospitals are safety code. The cinderblocks are used because there burn time (how long will it take a fire in the hall to pass through the walls) see the BOCA code for regulations. Also because of the HUGE footprint of a school there is an equally hugh roof area and thus very large snow loads, requiring more bearing walls. All electrical work has to be in stainless steel conduit which is also very expensive. Schools and hospitals are the cadilac of buildings in the US, (where are our cold war bomb shelters?? Hopitals and schools and town halls.

Snow loading? in Houston? You gotta be joking....=b (but I get your point). But look at any large shopping mall as an example of the clearspan possible with tilt-wall and truss ceiling beams. These buildings can be built very stout and withstand some pretty severe weather around here.

As far as the conduit being SS, I don't think that is the case around here but I'll look into it. I understand the issue of burn time, but again there are cheaper ways of skinning that cat I think. Fiber reinforced cement panels instead of drywall perhaps? or cast in place tilt up interior walls welded to the load bearing WF Beam columns.

Tell me more of this BOCA code of regulations. What is BOCA? I'm not familiar with that acronym.

GA! I recently watched program on the Weather Channel about a tornado that severely damage a high school, killing some students. Looking at the footage, it was the interior cinder block walls that collapsed and crushed the students. I didn't see one piece of rebar in the place, and the cells in the cinder blocks were not filled with cement (would have thought this was standard practice). I assume that this school had cost a pile of dough to build, and I'd guess that when the rebuilt it they added rebar and filled the cells in. Probably cost a bit more the second time.

As far as the precast tilt-up walls, the local jr college just finished a new science building using this method. It took well over a year just to put it up, and they're still tinkering with the interior. They've had major electrical problems that fried several hundred thousand dollars of computer and video equipment. My inclination would be to look at shotcrete domes - fast, cheap, scalable, and almost indestructible.

But Rorshach's original post was to the point: building schools is a cash cow for the construction industry, and not just for the unions. Architects and contractors also benefit. But to look on the bright side a lot of the money is spent locally. At least we're not importing them.

All of this is just part of the hangover from a century of living in fat city. As the money dries up we will hopefully become more interested in what goes on inside the schools, and smarter about what's on the outside.

The previous posting was mine....

===Signed CaptMoosie

God help us the school actually had "cinder blocks" for internal walls.....most likely they are "Concrete Masonry Units" which are much more stronger.

I don't know of any school in the USA built to withstand a Thermonuclear blast (within 10 radius of Ground Zero air blast equaling or greater than 50 MT Yield), even if the school was build during the height of the Cold War (1950's through to 1991)....hell, even Mil buildings are rarely designed to be that strong!

The old "Duck and Cover" should have been "Duck and kiss you ass goodbye kiddies", but the powers to be back then didn't want to upset the kids and their parents......ohhhhhh ignorant bliss back then!

===CaptMoosie

You're right, I was using the wrong word. Yes they are CMU's. But that begs the question, for internal non-load bearing walls, why NOT cinder block? especially for a second story where the weight of the non-load bearing wall is an important issue.

They did build "Fallout Shelters" though. The first job I did when I came to the States in 1966 was the structural design for a big engineering lab that included a fallout shelter, the feds still gave tax breaks for building them. I was told that some schools had been built "heavy" to qualify.

If a tilt-up wall does collapse, it is very expensive to replace.

Fire resistance is a must have in a public building.

The brick used in most structures today is overlay/vernier and purely ornamental but is also maintenance free.

Block is easy to maintain and remodel.

Block tends to move or come apart, to a degree or completely, in an earthquake/collapse so as to only bruise and not crush the bodies.

Block requires no added coating or 'finished' walls to create an insulation space.

Are you serious. Or are you making things up as you write.

How long do you think you would live if I dropped a concrete block on your head.

Morbid levity of course.

Want to estimate building costs for yourself or as a check against others?

Try this.

http://www.aacei.org/technical/BuildingModel.shtml

Concrete block construction is the cheapest durable construction.

That's why it is so common throughout the world and especially in poorer countries.

Tilt up construction is a viable alternative to concrete block but requires finishes on the inside face which increases the total cost. In a school environment they usually require durable surfaces. CMU walls do not require anything more than a coat of paint. With tilt up you would have to parge the walls to conceal the joints and connectors or cover the wall with a durable material.

Except in poorer countries, the cost of labor is much lower. That is not and has not been the case in the US for quite some time. That is the problem with CMU construction, it is very labor intensive and labor is THE biggest cost driver there is.

If CMU construction was so cheap why is it that virtually NO other building type in the US uses it? and tilt-wall only requires a finish on the inside face if you are interested in aesthetics. Aesthetics does not teach a kid anything other than you are too freaking stupid to spend your money wisely.

I worked on the design of two new prisons in PA, and they were reinforced CMU, reinforced in both directions so as to form a cage if the concrete was chipped out.

I suspect there is a break-point based on size where CMU is more cost-effective. Look at any small retail strip center built in the US over the last 25 years. Nearly every one of these little retail places is built with CMU for the box and the interior firewalls. Big-box stores are almost universally built with tilt walls. Since both are cost-sensitive, why does tilt-wall predominate in larger structures but not smaller?

Concerning school construction where safety is an overriding concern, I found an interesting perspective in this Firefighter Handbook indicating that the stability of tilt wall panels relies on the structural integrity of the roof system. The top of the panel is affixed to the roof system. Failure of the connectors between the wall panel and the roof leaves the panel with no horizontal stability. It can fall over at any time with disastrous consequences.

Those issues can be solved (internal steel frame that the walls are attached to.)

In many poorer countries throughout the world, concrete block is not the same as what you might be used to. They are often more fragile than eggshells, crumbling in the hands of the masons as they pick them up to set them. One generally orders (assuming one is not molding one's own) about 50% extra to account for breakage. This is one reason earthquakes in the third world are far more devastating than earthquakes in the first world. That and the fact that very little steel is used, and quite often the blocks are not filled. Which is another reason why block construction is so cheap in the third world. They build to different standards that those to which you are accustomed.

cmu in other county's more than likely have a high clay content (no Portland)

They have not made a cinder block since you were a little kid

ask a building/code official why that type of construction

we can guess all night

I have never done a cost comparison nor do I know the code. I have, however, sat in on a public meeting for a proposed school and here's what I witnessed:

About 10 or 15 minutes after it begun it was opened for public comment.

One person (I got the feeling he might have been an engineer) was concerned about using sch 10 piping (I think it was galvanized and possibly fire protection) throughout the school. His point was that while it is reduces the bottom line today, it would corrode within a 10 year time frame and need replacement. It would actually be cheaper to use a more durable material.

He was heard and more or less dismissed. There were a couple other minor unrelated comments and the board proceeded to spend the next hour discussing interior color schemes with the architect.

I was shocked to witness how quickly a valid concern was dismissed to discuss office space decor.

So very true, so very true...