Siphoning Water Over 35'

I don't know if I understand well, but, do you expect that the water goes uphill alone?

Think about it in a simplified way: The siphon just works because the siphon exit is below the source water level. The water flows due to the gravity force acting in both sides of the water column, and, as the exit column is taller than the inlet column, it "pulls" the water out.

If you need to move water 1240' uphill, you need a pump. The way you'll move it (windmill, electricity, petrol engine, solar panels, compressed air, water turbine, automatic hammering pump, human force, horse traction, ) is free.

His outlet is below the source, at 1240' vs a source height of ~ 1310', if I understood correctly.

It might work if you could get the siphon tube completely full of water and then uncap both ends simultaneously. However, don't trust me, I'm an electrical guy. Now, if you want to get electrons to flow . . .

The key to my problem is this : Is it possible to get water to siphon over 35'? My total lift will be approx. 80' and I was hoping to use siphon only...

I think I will have to look at the solar panels and a dc pump.

Thank you.

Oh, OK. The sink is below the source. It will work, once the tube is always full of water. And will keep flowing until the upper reservoir is done, or a shutoff valve is closed in the middle.

In your system I see something like this: A small pump, that is turned on by a level switch in the lower reservoir, that also has a shutoff valve actuated by another level sensor (a simple buoy) in a slightly higher level in the reservoir. When the siphon is working properly, it will keep the water supply so the shutoff valve will control it. If air is trapped inside the tube, or for some reason the water demand is too high, or whatever, the electric pump is actuated by the lower level reservoir level switch, so the system can recover and start working normally again.

Hey, I like it. I'd do myself if I needed.

PWSlack is correct. Will not work. Water will be pumped to the tube and, when the pump pressure is released, two water columns will remain in the tube with its water leves unbalanced, with an empty space between them.

You mentioned that the distance from top to water level is about 22m, an then it goes down to the other reservoir, am I correct? You'd need a pump to overcome the 12m difference in water column, and, once the flow is running, it will move for itself along the way. The result is that you'll end with much less power required by the pump to do the job.

thank you!

The well is 138' deep. I want to siphon(pump) water up the well and back down to a lower elevation. above the well the elevation is 1328' Water is approx. 73' below the surface. I want to deliver water to a lower elevation at 1240'.

The key to my puzzle is: Is it possible to get water to siphon higher than 80' ?

Thanks

It isn't 1240' it's just over 80' (this is the minimum) I was hoping to make or buy something that would allow me to siphon water over 34' and installing in line. The atmospheric pressure won't allow water to siphon higher than 34', therefore it separates at the top.

Thanks for the input!

At sea level, if one caps one end of a glass tube 1m long, fills it up with Hg and inverts it in a bath of Hg without letting any air in, the height of the mercury suspended above the bath by atmospheric pressure is about 760mm, give or take a little bit for the prevailing weather conditions at that location (this is the principle of the barometer).

Substituting H₂O for Hg the height of an equivalent water column close to freezing temperature is about 10.33m (about 33.9ft).

The post seeks to lift water higher than this figure using a syphon, to a figure of 72.8ft (about 22.2m). In order to do this, one needs a higher column of water than the atmosphere can provide. So a pump of some sort will be needed, if a piped adit into the side of the hill is not practical, and if a natural spring in the side of the hill is not available.

I was wondering whether this is the same situation, and after your explanation and some consideration, I have decided that it is. I'm in agreement - it won't work.

The "pipe into the side of the hill" is a good idea, if practical.

Thanks for the input!

The siphoning of water depend on air pressure and 72.8 feet will be excessive.

I have seen an installation from a well reaching quite deep but it only worked on certain days when the atmospheric pressure was sufficient. I am not sure but i believe the water level to top was less than 30 ft.

Installing a small pump to overcome the shortfall would be the best solution.

Once the delivery pipe is filled the flow rate will increase due to the additional vacuum provided by the outlet.

Another caution is that the negative pressure rating of the pipe must be considered.

If I have understood your problem you still need to lift the water 72.8 feet from water level to the top of the casing, before there is any option of a down side to syphonn.

Since you cannot suck water up more than 30 feet, your have to think of pushing it up with a submerged pump or lifting it up with a chain or bucket type of pump.

I know a chain pump which lifts water from over 100 feet and is really easy to use - hand powered and deliveres a good stream of water for drinking and washing - probably 5 gallons per minute - that is an estimate.

Hugh Mattos Chartered Engineer

Thank you!

What about an above ground jet pump with jets placed at intervals below?

George

George:

What is an above ground jet pump? Are they simple? Are there DC versions available?

It looks like I will be using solar power.

Thanks for the input!

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/jet_pump.htm

A jet pump is above ground, pumps the water down a pipe and siphon jets tees into the lift pipe and 'jets' water through pulling up more water. each jet can lift several meters, then you need another jet to keep boosting the water to the surface. Any pump will consume paower like crazy and I'm afraid a heck of a lot more than any solar panel can keep up with unless you have a 10 x 10 meter solar panel and a battery bank. I suppsoe you can get a DC motor on the pump, but this might be a strange setup.

I installed one for a freind in Liberia in a 30 foot well. 2 jets were needed to reach the surface and fill his pressure bottle.

NO

At about 24 feet the weight of the water column will exceed the water vapor pressure and a "vacuum area" with no water(except vapor) will form breaking any siphon.

you need some form of pump to raise the water beyond 24 feet

Quote

NO

At about 24 feet the weight of the water column will exceed the water vapor pressure and a "vacuum area" with no water(except vapor) will form breaking any siphon.

you need some form of pump to raise the water beyond 24 feet

End quote

Absolutely right. A regular surface suction pump will work down to 1 atmosphere, 33'+ or -. Pumping from a greater depth will require a jet pump or a submersible pump. A jet pump uses a venturi at the bottom of the pickup and a portion of the water pumped goes back down to the venturi. Downside is the priming of the pump, more piping, over heating you motor if you run dry and freezing. A submersible goes at the bottom of your 6" pipe, no priming, freezing and your motor is below the pump so it keeps cool even if you pump your well dry. Don't know of any DC models but you could use an inverter.

John

Well the answer is NO: you can not. This has already been said. there is no practical way to create a vacuum high enough over your water level to syphon it up to the well ground zero level. Why? Read about Van Der Waals force. there will be a "breakdown" of the molecular structure of the water.

There are other ways of doing it. Jet pump is one But in order to be more helpful you should first let us know:

1. What is your required flow rate?
2. what kind of energy is available to you Except electricity?
3. And how much electrical power you have?

Answer these questions and I will try to help.

Wangito.

You have a possible solution. an electric generator at the bottom that runs a pump down the hole. The pump discharges into a pipe at the top and it runs down the tube to the generator. The generator then uses that head to make electricity.

since the down side potential energy is greater than the lift side potential energy, it may be possible to make it work if the pump efficiency and generator efficiencies are high enough. so the lift side us 72.8 feet to the water and the top is 1382 to 1240 low spot = 142 feet.

That means it takes 72.8 foot pounds to get the water up to the edge and you can get 142 foot pounds on it's way to the low spot. so if the combination was above 50% efficiency, it might be workable. Big problem is getting small pumps and generators above 75%. two at 75% are about 50% net. So if you had 85-90% pump and 85-90% generator you can do it easily. Small items like this are hard to get at high efficiencies. Make the pipes large enough that the pressure drop is small due to flow.

Is there any way that I can siphon water from a water well that has a 6"casing, is 138' deep, it's 72.8' to the water and we have a low spot on the property of 1240'?

The elevation above the well is 1382'

If you drilled a hole into the water from the side you could get free electricty and water.

No comprendo nothing, (or do we have here a perpetum-mobile?)

Generator at the bottom of what? why at the bottom? solution to what?

Or am I getting too old to catch a joke?

Wangito.

No. He stands on the downside of the hill, and the water inside is higher than he is standing. If he drilled a horizontal hole it would run out and it would have some head above the low point of 1240 feet (above sea level?)

What keep the water inside the hill? Impermeable strata?...could be

That is how I read his situation.

it is of course impossible if there is no downwards head potential from the level of the water in the well and the place he wants it to be.

Brilliant!

At first I thought this was another perpetual motion machine - but it isn't. This could work if it were possible to get the effeciencies of the pump and generator where they need to be. I'm not sure that it would be economically justifiable in this case but it couold definately work.

It is nice to see that someone reads the question and thinks about their answer.

Kudo's to you, oh Wise-One!

Right, it won't work.

Try this site for solar pumps.

http://www.mono-pumps.com/en-uk/solar_pump

Fascinating problem.

You have a working head available of about 70 ft.

Problem is you need to lift it 70 ft then it drops 140ft.

How about harnessing the 70 ft head on the outlet to drive a submerged pump in the well?

It would look neat as a water wheel driving the chain pump!

Efficiencies would need to be considered carefully but it may be feasible.

How far away is the well to the utilization point? Mechanical linkages might not be so easy for long distances, but electric could still be a possibility.

Cool!

I like it. Technology is about 100 years old, and worked for at least 50 years on the family farm pumping water for cattle! There might be some around still that actually work.

Here in Australia the wind mill is still the prefered stand alone pumping system if you are a few hundred miles from the power grid. There is very little that can compete for cost effectivness and ease of maintenance. It is a winner.

Great Photo! How much wind is required? (minimum) We are seldom annoyed by too much breeze. This is located in SW Pennsylvania, 40 miles south of Pittsburgh.

Thanks

try using a air compressor pump. it can take water even from 350'

Not sure how the previous post suggests using the air compressor pump so maybe this post is redundant to the previous one.

If the casing in the well is air tight, you could cap the casing at the top and attach an air hose from a small compressor similar to the 12v type used for car tires. By raising the air pressure inside the casing, you increase the height of the column of water that can be supported.

Example:

138 foot column height

density of water of 64lb/ft^3

standard atmospheric pressure of 14.68 lb/in^2

64/144=.444 lb=force exerted on 1 in^2 of 1 ft column of water

138*.444=61.272 lb per in^2 of 138 ft column of water

air compressor would have to provide

61.272-14.68=46.592 lb/in^2 gauge pressure which is about the same as a light truck tire pressure.

Don't know much about casings so don't blow it up and collapse it with too much pressure. Maybe a guy who drills water wells could tell you how much the casing could withstand.

If that doesn't work, some type of submersible pump is the only thing I can think of. If it does work, then you could use a air compresssor with a pressure activated switch to maintain the pressure inside the casing at the desired level. All kinds of possibilites with 120 or 12v.

Sounds like a formula for fizzy water.

A pump operated by a compressed air motor would do this. You could also operate a multi stage bubble trabsport system, as they do in aquaria, but you would need lots of stages

Air driven, submersible diaphragm pumps are commonly used in wells with groundwater elevation below 32 ft at environmental assessment sites. These are typically low flow applications.

ask an engineer the time and he'll tell you how to build a watch.

Have you considered drilling a horizontal well to the source of water?

Great idea but budget and logistics won't allow this. It is almost flat on top for 100's of feet around.

Thanks!

The compressed air inside the casing would work if the casing could withstand the pressure. The water would not be aerated significantly if thats what was meant by fizzy water. The advantages would be:

1. no pump, moving parts, or electrical wires would need to be placed inside the well, just the water outlet hose, the end of which would have to be submerged below the water line but not necessarily all the way to the bottom. If pumping from the very bottom isn't necessary, then less pressure than the formula indicated could be used.

2. any maintenance could be performed without removing anything from the well, unless the outlet hose ruptured.

Example: Buy a fountain soda at the convenience store. Get an extra straw. Put both straws thru lid, one all the way into the fluid, the other short of touching the liquid.Seal around the straws and hold the lid down. Blow in the straw whose end isn't submerged. Watch the liguid level rise in the other straw.

Filling the casing with compressed air would work if you seal the bottom of the casing too. This would limit you to the water in the casing but then it's a little too impractical to begin with. Otherwise you would have to seal the entire hill/mountain. Example: Take that same 'Fountain Soda', cut a hole in the bottom and set it in a pan with an inch of water around it. Now blow in one straw and see how much comes out the other.

One last thing.

Pressure on cap to seal casing would be:

46.592 x (6/2)^2*3.14159 = 1317 pounds

So, whatever you cap it with should be very strong or it will blow off and kill somebody.

One last last thing. If pressure remained continuously inside casing, I suspect the water level would drop over time such that it might not be feasible to use this as a continuous on demand source of water, but possibly as a temporary means to fill storage or other short time frame requirements. Not sure. Here's a link. http://www.wellowner.org/

If you need small quantities of water for drinking, washing etc, then your idea of a solar array - probably to charge lead acid batteries, and a 12 volt submersible pump sounds to be the best idea.

If you want to irrigate larger areas of land, I would consult a geologist or expert in wells and drill a new bore hole to provide a true spring.

Good Luck

Hugh Mattos

Chartered Engineer

A top powered shaft driven centrifugal pump could easily handle this, if a prime mover top mounted could have sufficient power to drive it at the required speed. To fit into a 6" casing would require a fairly high RPM, but 100 to 599 feet is easy for this kind of pump, and at very good rates. Battery storage until sufficient power to run for say 5 minutes, to a resevoir at the bottom of the hill. Both electric and diesel are available, but for the sixe you need, a vertical motor with a shaft to the available bottom of the well, with possibly staged centrifugals, all bottom mounted, should work well. and the well should work , too.

Any chance you can post a rough dimensioned sketch of your situation Westwind ? I think I understand , but would love to check before trying to offer an opinion . It appears as though cavitation could end a syphon solution , but a cross section diagram would help . Kris . (The reasons / flow rate may help as well )

Here are two ideas that might help. If there is a big tree close by, you can attach a long string or cable to a high branch. With a slight breeze the swaying action of the branch attached to a flexible pipe with a non-return valve submersed on the end of the pipe will cause a pumping action. This won't be a very strong flow but it will be continious and by placing a resovoir in line you will have enough to handle a small household.

<>

<>Another idea is a small hydraulic ram pump. These devices ... " ...has only two moving parts, a spring or weight loaded "waste" valve sometimes known as the "clack" valve and a "delivery" check valve, making it cheap to build, easy to maintain, and very reliable. In addition, there is a drive pipe supplying water from an elevated source, and a delivery pipe, taking a portion of the water that comes through the drive pipe to an elevation higher than the source..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram#Sequence_of_operation

<>Also see http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm

<>If you could drill a 1/2" horisontal hole into the source of the water and install this device on the other end you will be able to pump it uphill for free!

<>

Good ideas! Your ram pump is the most unique that I have seen. Do you have the specs to build one? I have Clemson's but don't think that thewaste valve is all that great. Any tips would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Can I give you my email? I don't know if that is allowed on this site...

The best way to siphon liquid is by or just fill it with fluid and cap both ends. Now, bring the end of the hose to where you want to siphon to. The other end of the hose must remain capped or submerged in the tank you are siphoning from. Once The exposed hose end is where you want it, just uncap the end and your siphon will start (so long as the other end is also uncapped.)

Hello SmithsEng , just had a quick look before I sign off for the day. Can you give a good explanation of why cavitation may be a problem (I understand the principle you offer - ie pre filll the tube, but can't really explain why I think that doesn't work). You're input on hydraulics etc would be valued. Maybe cavitation is not a problem , but I will look at your response tomorrow. Thanks .Kris

Kris,

I gave no indication that cavitation may be a problem. Perhaps you are suggesting that cavitation would occur, I can't tell from your post. Cavitation never crossed my mind because I made no mention of valves or pumps where the phenomenon typically is seen.

In fact, you can generate some objective evidence for yourself that this method for starting a syphon does work. Just try it on a small scale. Get a bucket of water, put it on your table. Hopefully you can find some small tubing that you can submerge into the bucket. Leave one end of the tube submerged and cap the other end with your thumb. Now, take the capped end out of the water, lower it below the water line and release your thumb from the end. Your siphon will begin. I do it every day at work when I'm priming our prototype gear pumps.

On a large scal where your tubing is much larger, the principal is the same but probably more difficult to do. I do not think cavitation would be an issue because it is mostly a problem in high pressure situations like in a turbine or a where a valve creates a pressure drop or something. (I am not an expert, just working from my memory of thermodynamics and fluids esposure in school).

Regards,

g

Hi g , I didn't phrase that good. The pre-filled tube method I completely agree with , having used it to establish a syphon myself. I was trying to think about cavitation occurring with such an extreme lift . Ive only ever done this over ~5ft , and my gut reaction was 'this can't work' with the vertical distance you mention . I can't explain why , but I shall watch this thread with interest.

Regards , Kris

IF YOU WANT TO GET WATER FROM A WELL

Water level 73 feet below 1382 foot surface.

There are a few cute ways to get the water from your well even discounting a bucket brigade of Dallas Cheer Leaders.

The reason you have heard that you cannot siphon water over 35 feet is that (at sea level) the atmospheric pressure is approximately 14.7 PSIA (absolute). This would theoretically raise water 33.9 feet in a perfect vacuum. All that is required is to adjust the local pressure in the well above ambient enough to complete the lift.

#1 Put a cap on your 6" Dia well casing with a tube through it or (double sided pipe fittings, for bulk head effect).

Connect a tube or pipe that will extend 80 to 100 feet from the well cap to below the surface of the water in the well. Flexible nylon with some weigh on the end would work. That is a long way for rigid pipe and definitely not rigid plastic.

Add a pressure port (eg. 1/4 NPT) to the well cap.

Connect compressed air to the cap pressure port. Pressure as low as 25 PSIG will provide enough lift once you prime and start a siphon but the flow will be unenthusiastic. Without the siphon effect you will require about 40 PSIG. For a car wash think at least 100 PSIG and be sure that well cap is on tight.

Since a cubic foot is equivalent to aprox' 7.48 gallon you will displace 7,480 gallons of water with 1000 cubic feet of compressed air. At a dollar per 1000 SCF of compressed air you can water a lot of cows for a buck. If you are filling a pond that will be extra. You can pump much water with a bottle of nitrogen as well.

#2 Much less fun would be to trench and bore horizontally into the well casing about fifty feet below the top of the well and use a natural siphon.

If you decide to go with the Dallas Cheer Leaders give me a call.

The only problem with pressurizing the well is you will also push the water down the stand pipe by the same amount. I just don't see how this will work except for a few minutes (hours) until the head in the well stabilizes against the added pressure.

The well is not a closed system and you will blow the water back into the surrounding ground.

Hi GW

The water level is already about 1309 feet above sea level. Obviously the underground water is being forced up the well casing by the weight of the water contained in the aquifer with an equivalent pressure of 565.5 psig. We might raise water an additional 73 feet with 32 psig forcing against but not moving the column of water in the well. The compressed air,contained at 32 psig, will force water up the pipe or tube but cannot force the well water (at 566 psig) back down deeper into the well.

A contributor brought up the pressure within the well casing. The 6" diameter casing would see almost 3,000 psig (28.27 in² x 100 psig). It would be possible to reduce the contained force with a 1" pipe inside a 2" pipe sealed through a 6" dia plug.

Personally unless it was time for a Saturday night bath I would forget the water and drink my scotch neat.

An additional 32psi will only force the water 73' deeper into the casing. If the casing is less than 73', you will end up blowing a lot of bubbles into the aquifer. If the aquifer were full and you succeeded in raising the water table there might some benefit but only until that much water was again released.

I agree

Well Kceum and GW, If we had a six inch pipe that was 138 feet high standing on end and the top of the pipe at 1382 feet (elevation above sea level)

1. With a pipe cap on the bottom.
2. Filled with water to 65 feet leaving 73 feet if empty pipe to the top.
3. A pipe cap on top with two threaded ports.
4. A 1/2" nylon flexible tube connected to the inside of the top cap hanging down, say 85 feet (12 feet under water).
5. A compressor or source of pressurized gas that could be connected to the second port in the pipe cap or left open to atmosphere.

This would pretty well simulate the well in question. I was sloppy to say that the water in the well would have 566 psi holding it up. GW was right that the aquifer probably had a hard floor rather than being 1300 feet deep. So the pipe cap on the bottom of our experimental 6" pipe represents the bottom of a mountain swimming pool.

1. If we attempt to create a natural siphon action from the surface of the water at 1309 feet of elevation it will only lift water (to lazy to look it up) about 27 feet. The vacuum couple would break and the water go both ways.
2. However, (watch me closely now) if we connect compressed gas to the second port at 25 psig pressure added the 14.05 psia of atmosphere (on a good day at 1309 ft) we have an absolute pressure of 39 psia of differential. Each 1 psi will lift 2.306 feet of water so 39 x 2.306 = 89.9 feet by using a siphon augmented by pressure. Actually 20 psig would lift the water with a siphon but Murphy's law would surely nail anyone cutting it that close.
3. For those who don't like to fill a long siphon line or draw a vacuum to get the siphon action started a compressed gas pressure of 35 psig would force down on the water and drive it up the flexible nylon line for 80.7 feet and I would use 40 psig to be conservative and have more enthusiastic flow.
4. We need to replenish the liquid so the pipe cap trick will only work for a few moments but the well will replenish itself.

In either this scenario or the first with the aquifer the pressure of the compressed gas forcing down cannot force the liquid back down the 6" pipe or casing but can drive it up the tube with the end under the water level.

Tom, We don't have a cap on the bottom of the casing. I have already said this would work (see #36 in reply to #31). What we have is a 138 foot long pipe stuck 65 feet into a swimming pool 65 plus feet deep. If we introduce a pressure of 25 psi over and above atmospheric pressure into the top of the pipe we will cause a difference of 57.69 feet in the level of water inside and outside the pipe (casing). Depending on the area of the pool, the pool level will rise a very small amount. If the 'pool' were actually a sealed underground tank completely full of water then the first 12 feet of water in the casing would actually go up the 1/2" nylon tube followed by a lot of air. If (and only if) there were a hole in the casing at or near the top of the tank (aquifer) that would allow air into the top then the 1st 12 feet of water in the aquifer would go up the tube but that would be the end of it since the aquifer could never be replenished.

Hi Kceum

You are right and I stand corrected. The up feed tube would have to be longer than 131 feet (73' + 58') for the end to stay submerged when the compressed air depressed the water level within the casing.

With an up-flow tube of 140 feet and 25 psig plus 14 psia created by the siphon effect we would get water from the well but not with higher pressure alone.

I think you said earlier that unless the casing were longer, 165 feet (73' + 92') minimum @ 40 psig a higher pressure would not be feasible because the water would be driven out of the 138 foot casing and the air would bubble into the unconfined pool or aquifer.

Thank you for setting me straight. Tom

I agree with Kceum.

Now, lets modify the idea. We somehow put a check valve down the well and seal it to the casing so the water can't flow out (I know, impractical but...) We install an outlet pipe almost to the bottom of the well. Now we pressurize the well casing, the check valve prevents backflow to the aquifer, so we blow the water out of the pipe and it runs down hill. Once the pipe is empty we release the pressure and the pipe fills back up.

Hang on, do we actually have a ram pump working here? The water rushes down hill, we stop the outlet and we get "water hammer" that we use to pressurize the air via a second return pipe back up the hill to the well. We have a net 70 ft of head to drive this with ( roughly 35 psi). Air is much less dense than water so it should blow back up the hill OK. Now, the trick is to have a tuned oscillator that can keep the pulses going or some fancy valving. I know this sounds like perpetual motion, but it isn't. We have an excess head of 70ft. and gravity works.

By the way, the aquifer does not have that much pressure. It is sitting on top of an impervious layer at the high altitude. It is equivalent to a swimming pool on a mountain. If the aquifer had a porous bottom (leaky swimming pool) it would drain down to sea level.

I am surprised there are not nearby springs or artesian wells, but we are not given the distance from well to low point. It could be yards or miles.

Air pressure (or the vacuun created) will not lift over about 32 ft at the specified altitude. Just check your local barometer. We have ft of water instead of inches of mercury.

You will need to pump pump from inside the well to get the lift required.

We are confusing westwind 304 with a lot of workable solutions.

to summarize:

1 A wind mill would be the most economical to use.

The terrain might cause problems but the frame could be modified (it is usually installed on almost level ground)

The obstruction caused by the mountain to wind.

windmills are made in all sizes from 4' up to 25' wheels. the size will depend on the required flow rate

2 A windmill driving a screw type pump instead of a reciprocating cylinder may be better. a 90degree gearbox can be fitted at the top.

3 A jet pump or air lift pump will also work but the efficiency is generally lower.

4 A widwheel driving a compressor to drive a airlift pump.

5 a submersible pump. It must be remembered that the operating head for the pump

may be at least be only 50 feet because siphon effect will cancel the balance.

The pump design should therefore be to deliver the required flow at ±50 m but must be capable of delivering a lesser flow at 75 m.

The pressure/volume/kw curves of available pumps must be consulted.

6 a wind power generator and suitable pump

7 solar powered pump.

8 a hand powered pump if quantities are low.

Wishing Wellto you.

No the answer is YES.

To siphon water from this well at this altitude it is necessary to raise the water level to less than 30 feet from the top of the well.

This can be done with compressed air at 25 psig with a sealed cap on the top of the well casing that has a thru port for a pick-up tube or pipe extended approximately 140 down from the top of the well. Compressed air at 25 psig will depress the water in the casing approximately 58 feet. As long as the water level remains within the casing the water in the aquifer provides a de-facto cap. The pressure from the compressed air will transmit to the water in the aquifer and push the water in the pick-up tube to 15 feet of the top (73-58 = 15). From that position it may be siphoned and the aquifer will keep replenish what is drawn away.

No compressed air is consumed once the water is pressurized (accept for leaks) and in theory the downward pressure that lifts water to siphon distance could be a mechanical plunger with equivalent force to the compressed air times the area if the plunger makes a dynamic seal to the casing and has the pick up tube port thru it. The plunger does not move once it has forced the water level down 58 feet, it provides constant force but is not a pump.

So with both a compressed gas and a mechanical solution to raise the water level the answer is yes, it can be siphoned.

This is a minimal energy solution and I feel it is superior to a pump barring requirements that were not expressed.

Now if we dig a hole 30 feet deep alongside the well, we can siphon water right into the hole which can filter back down into the aquifer and we have perpetual motion. What am I missing here?

nothing but the fact that you are all wet

Water is 72 ft from surface. You can't siphon to a net uphill location.

GW, My reply (#64) was in response to #63 which describes a method of raising the water to less than 30 feet below the top of the well.

>To siphon water from this well at this altitude it is necessary to raise the water level to less than 30 feet from the top of the well.<

Oh well, at least you were polite about it.

We are in agreement that #63 won't work.

Hi GW

If we filled your mountain swimming pool and then siphoned the water up 15 feet above the surface of the pool I think you would agree that could be done even at 5000 feet (Denver) or even 11,000 feet.

A big tub, with bricks and sticks supports the water in the swimming pool. You can raise and support water with compressed air as well and then siphon from the level supported by other means.

Kceum corrected me on the resultant water level in the casing which would be depressed roughly 58 feet by 25 psig of compressed air. This leaves about 7 feet of water in the casing with 25 psig forcing upon it and the water in the aquifer and driving water up the pick up tube 58 feet above the normal level of 73 feet. The water level in the pick up tube is within 15 feet of the surface and can be siphoned.

I would send a diagram but that costs extra.

1) you can't siphon up, only down.

2) put your well in the middle of the swimming pool, pressurize the casing, and you will see it simply pushes the water out into the surrounding pool. It is like sticking a boat into the ocean, yes, you do displace water but you don't materially raise the ocean.

You can attach a dwg and it doesn't cost anything.

It will work, because the level of the exit end is lower than the entry end in the well.The weight of the water in the tube going down into the well is less than the weight of the water going down the hill to the low spot.You must fill the pipe completely full before uncapping the end.If the water in the well ever drops below the level of the intake, the system will suck air, and lose suction.Try it with a garden hose, you will see.It does not matter how high the water goes, it is the difference in head pressure, or level that makes it flow.There could be a mountain in between, and if the pipe was full it would flow towards the low end.If you wanted to "see" the water level in the well, just walk up the hill with the water hose in hand, and when the water stops flowing, carefully move the hose end up and down, and when you can see the water in the end of the hose, you will have an exact indicator of the level of water in the well.When you take the hose down to the low spot of 1240 feet, your static pressure will be 29.96 psig (.433 psi per ft.)You can drop as much pipe below the water as you want to , but it will never draw down below the level of the lowest point, (without a pump).

Many a construction site has been laid out using a water level made of garden hoses, before laser levels were invented. Even the Pyramids were constructed using water levels.

Hope this helps.

HTRN

Thanks HTRN

Maybe you can take a look and see how I'm doing. Kceum and GW have ganged up and I feel lonely.

GW

Take a look at the diagram below. Didn't have time to fill in all the labels. From the top down we have Earth-Air-Water. Without blowing the water out of the casing it is depressed with 25 psig. The equal and opposite is a lift up the pick-up tube. With constant pressure the water in the pick up tube should maintain the high level all day and all night while we find a long hose. Now with the water held high enough to siphon (about 15 feet from the top) a siphon could lift the water from the well and as it runs down hill to the 1240 foot low spot the siphon should be maintained. The aquifer will keep the pick up tube full and flowing. Because I had to revert to a diagram that will be twice my normal rate.

I would really like to see your sketch, but all I see is a little box with an red X in it. It won't open, so it apears the image was not imbedded. I have attached a BMP, doesn't look so good.

Hi Tom

I am unable to open X files, (working on a speed and function retarded computer).

But here is another idea you might want to add.

if you run a big pipe down the well and return with a smaller pipe the flow in the smaller pipe will be faster and will rise higher.

No thats wrong.

The small pipe must flow down and with the big pipe running at the same velocity more water will be lifted.

It would be best if the flow direction is shown in both directions. The reader can decide.

This idea was thought out by a farmer who actually constructed the siphon to get water across a stream. I was called out to witness his invention.

On arrival it seems that the outlet was indeed higher than the inlet.

Even measuring the hight could not convince him of the opposite.

I don't follow your description on the small pipe and big pipe running at the same velocity. Can you give me a better idea of the application. It sounds interesting.

I'll give it a try.

Thanks!

Mark(westwind304)

The big pipe / small pipe claim was made by a farmer about 40 years ago.

I was answering water/pump related questions in column in a farmers periodical at that time.

He sounded so convincing that i had to visit the site (800km away). Needles to say that even showing him that the outlet was lower than the inlet did not convince him.

I gave the information to Tom for possible inclusion in his drawing or comic.

As remarked correctly above it cannot work.

But being old and grey already entitle me to make such contradictory comments.

Please read between the lines.

As a matter of interest I think CR4 was created for people to draw on experience or to apply their minds and not go running to wikipedia for solutions. The OP could have done that by himself.

It is also agreed that incorrect assumptions or facts are sometimes made but this will be rectified quickly by other contributors.

To sum it up, water will always seek it's level.

Please try it with garden hoses and reply to this forum with the results.

The proof is in the puddin' as the saying goes.

HTRN

http://www.theferipump.com/