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Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/14/2010 8:46 PM

Hello everyone! This is my first post....exciting! :) I think this might be a hard piece of information to uncover, but does anyone out there know which/what is used to bond the carbon electrode to the electrode in commercial EDLCs? Thanks a lot! SB

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#1

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/14/2010 11:28 PM

If no one else gives you a clear answer, I'd recommend a look through the patents.

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#2

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/15/2010 8:23 AM

SB,

This is probably a closely guarded secret, perhaps unique to specific manufacturers.

MB's reference to patent studies may, or may not, shed light on the formulation.

My experience with patent wording is that sometimes it is just clear enough to understand, but not so clear as to divulge specific formulations of materials.

Your motivation for the question is unknown, but, reverse engineering comes to mind here.

Have you done the unthinkable and asked a supplier?

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/15/2010 8:57 AM

I know this is OT, but decided not to mark it as such ;-)

lynlynch wrote: "My experience with patent wording is that sometimes it is just clear enough to understand, but not so clear as to divulge specific formulations of materials."

Interesting! I guess I've noticed the same thing, without really ever thinking about it. But, isn't that a violation of at least the spirit of patent law--the idea of a term of patent protection in exchange for disclosure of the invention.

Not that I have any need or intent atm, but I wonder if anyone has ever sued either the patent holder or the patent office (for failure to enforce the law) on that basis?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/15/2010 9:49 AM

Unless the bonding mechanism/chemistry is the crux of the invention there is no particular obligation to disclose it. I've had discussions with my patent attorney over specificity, and he usually wins. Fuzzy is OK.

At least that's my understanding.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/15/2010 1:35 PM

At least that's my understanding.

Correct, our Patent lawyer also advised the same thing. A little vague is good for many reasons. Start off basic and then only put enough information in that you need to. Additionally this means that you can keep the existing Patent if you find later on that you want to replace part X with part Y (it gets more difficult if you mention part X everywhere in detail and the Patent therefore relates to part X).

Remember a Patent is not a complete manufacturing design, more a detailed idea or concept with room to move (and commonly a totally unworkable device or impractical concept when applied to the real world). Oh the stories I could tell reviewing Patents both off and on CR4.

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 8:15 AM

Well, I may be an old fogey or something similar, but I still think the current administration of patent law doesn't meet the original intent, at least as I understood it from the American history that was drummed into me as an American--a term of protection from competition in exchange for disclosure of the invention.

I agree that details that aren't the crux of the invention can be somewhat vague--I mean, if the invention is, for example a new grade of steel that requires a flux during melting, if that flux can be any standard flux, that probably is not the crux of the invention. Otoh, if the flux must have certain characteristics, then that flux, at least to the point of specifying those characteristics (and maybe even the exact material), is part of the crux of the invention.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 8:29 AM

I, mostly, agree with you. In the days when a working model was required, the disclosure was more complete.

Now that lawyers have found ways to profit from the process, it has become more convoluted and less straightforward.

Go figure.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 8:56 AM

> I, mostly, agree with you. In the days when a working model was required, the disclosure was more complete.

+1

> Now that lawyers have found ways to profit from the process, it has become more convoluted and less straightforward.

+1

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#6

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/15/2010 1:49 PM

Not sure, after a quick internet search the data is a little vague but conductive adhesive is definitely mentioned a lot (just with little detail).

One site mentions "silver-filled epoxy resin", however this was the infamous EEStor barium titanate ultracapacitor developer, so that sort of fails your "commercial EDLC" requirement.

Anyone have a good link to conductive adhesives capable of high current flow as I am interested for product development?

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 2:57 AM

I know I know.....an electrical conductive epoxy.

Most of which are propriatary secrets.

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#8

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 3:17 AM

Are you sure that this connection is glued by conducting whatever?

If so let it be analised FTIR to disclose the type of glue, ICP or any other to see the metals.

If this is not a glue but a molecular bond I would take a SEM that is coupled to an ion-mass separator so you can see any interesting elements in the joint.

If you see nothing then its likely pure diffusion of a very few layers of atoms.

RHABE

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Anonymous Poster
#9

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 3:43 AM

Hi SuperBuzz,

I'm not entirly sure whether this product will suite your application. If not contact them, they may have what your looking for.

Hope this is some help to you. Sorry if the picture does'nt display (not sure how to do that), it's only a picture of two tins for the base resin and activator.

AREMCO-BOND™ 616 ELECTRICALLY CONDUCTIVE ADHESIVE

SUMMARY

Aremco-Bondtm 616, a new silver-filled, low-cost, high temperature, electrically and thermally conductive adhesive developed by Aremco Products, Inc., is now available for electrical and electronic assembly applications to 360 oF (182 oC).

For more information visit www.aremco.com

CR4 Admin: Removed copy/paste of copyrighted info from another website and condensed to a single paragraph.

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#13

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 11:17 AM
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#14

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 1:13 PM

Dear all, Thank you very much for all your various answers. To respond to some: 1)Unfortunately the patents I looked at, mentioned conductive adhesives as a possibility for adhesion but did not mention what they were :) Really falls into what some individuals discussed here as not facilitating the invention. The reason I say that is because the conductive adhesive could severely affects the resistance of the device which in turn would hurt the power of the supercap, a core feature of the energy storage device. (patents are awful :)) 2)I asked a Japanese manufacturer and they said...."noneyabusiness." :) 3)EEStor or the people who mention it say that it is an ultracapacitor. Then they say barium titanate. As far as I know an ultracap is an electrochemical capacitor. Barium titanate is a dielectric material used, most likely, in a solid-state capacitor, and that would imply that calling it a supercapacitor/ultracap/electrochemical cap might not be totally accurate from the conventional use of the buzz words :) 4)I am pretty sure commercial entities use conductive adhesives for the supercap carbon to metal bond, but I am not sure what it is. (based on discussion with japanese company) 5)Thanks for the references to conductive adhesives/epoxies, though what I was really hoping to find if someone had done similar work in the past and might have experienced it enough to reveal what kind of conductive adhesive/how much/how thick/cost it really might be? (e.g. someone who did some grad work on it or worked in a facility with it in the past, or maybe worked in batteries that might have happened to use it) Thank you all, SB

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#15

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 6:26 PM

Epoxy id silve-PVAc based conductive epoxy. The patent is not there This is company secret. It is the weight of silver and type of solvent which is put it in and can provide you the details if you are interested and wants to make your own

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Anonymous Poster
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/16/2010 9:56 PM

If you are looking for an adhesive. Goto McMaster-Carr.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/17/2010 8:55 AM

McMaster is general purpose adhesive solution and not a technological adhesive needs fulfilments.

My more than 20 years of experience is high end adhesive is developed based on problem solution based on needs of end user and adhesive manufacturers.

Needs are met by joint work and if the joint work is house hold need then is McMaster product line.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Conductive Adhesives Used in EDLCs/Supercaps

11/17/2010 9:31 AM

Agreed.

Most adhesive recommendations I've seen on CR4, and here, are based on someone's favorite supplier, not the suitability of the adhesive for the application.

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Anonymous Poster (3); beriberi (1); jack of all trades (2); lyn (4); Masyood (2); MoronicBumble (1); RHABE (1); rhkramer (3); SuperBuzz (1)

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