Dealing with Certification Laboratories - Good Ole Boys Club??

Do you manufacture the paint or just apply it?

You might try contacting some of the tech schools or universities in your area and see if they would be interested in testing.

I think this publication is fairly trustworthy, they confirm that it works, but question to what extent.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=benefits-of-insulating-paint

Just a suggestion: You might want to calm down your website a little. The top is okay, but down below, all of that glaring red and blue writing in different fonts makes me feel like I'm being yelled at by a carnival barker.

Your idea is intriguing, but you haven't been addressing the right things to establish it properly and promote it legitimately. Physics is not merely some "good ole boys' club"; it is a community of mostly knowledgeable people who get most things right, because they go through the correct sort of critical review and replication of data.

I work for the distributors in Texas and California, who are both contractors and certified applicators. I am also an engineering rep for the manufacturer although I have not had to wear that hat in several years.

The director of the DOE made a video where he said the best you can expect from a white roof is a drop in heat transfer of 10-15%. With all due respect, if we dont produce temp drops and calcs that come out to 50%, I am on the phone to someone figuring out what happened.

Our biggest hurdle is that our product is too versatile. We put in the paperwork to become an Energy Star partner. Two months later they said no citing "We have absolutely no idea how to classify your company". Apperently you can only be listed in one of their categories (?) and we fit into more than that,, I guess!

This is more than white paint though. I saw a demo of something similar when this stuff first came out. Can't even remember how the demo was set up. I think it was with a heat lamp or something. The insulating properties were better than just white paint which would only be judged on it's reflective properties.

I thought independent labs would test anything, you just have to pay them.

Any costumer that sees these huge differences in electric bills could be cited as independent research. This stuff should sell itself if the claims are accurate.

I also tend to believe the claims. It wouldn't make much sense for you guys to be seeking out testing if you knew the claims were going to be blown out of the water.

With all due respect, if we dont produce temp drops and calcs that come out to 50%, I am on the phone to someone figuring out what happened.

hal, with all due respect my man, you don't need a lab, you need a marketing class.

If you feel confident with that 50% number, give your clients an ironclad guarantee of 25%.............for every percentage point that you're off, the client gets back $100.

After all isn't this really all about making money?

Have you presented any of the certification organizations that you approached any verified 3rd party testing results or only your own data? You can not blame them to much here. If you are presenting them with data that appears to be, at least on a first glance, bogus (and I am not saying your data is bogus) or suspect, their reticence is perhaps justified. Present them 3rd party verification and see how they react.

When something sounds too good to be true then one of the following is usually true:

1) It actually is too good to be true, or

2) There is so much money to be made that it is possible to overcome the problem of it sounding too good to be true.

If you say that you have a product that sounds too good to be true and you ask them to certify it then you will probably have them tell you that it sounds too good to be true.

Have you investigated the test procedures for the certifications you want? It would seem like there should be specifications and procedures available (probably at a cost) for the certifications you want. Most labs are interested in making money. If you set up fair tests and work with them then I would think that they would be willing to take your money to instrument the test and certify the results. But, if you ask them to do something half-baked and put their signature on something might seem misleading then they will probably back off.

I don't know anything about your industry, but when I need industry/government certifications I prepare everything including procedure paperwork, specifications of where instruments are to be located and the desired format of the collected data. The lab would need to be happy with what I prepared, but if I was not trying to "pull a fast one" I would not expect any problems.

The "good old boy network" of people refusing to take your money sounds a little odd. Most people are pretty eager to take your money unless you are asking them to do something that might get them in trouble. And, to someone who doesn't know about your industry a couple of thousand dollars sounds a little on the low side for running tests and a little on the high side to tell you that your ideas sound too good to be true. Is there any chance you are trying to use a little salesmanship on the people at the lab?

I was inquiring to those labs about certifications that might explain and confirm what our product does in it's different applications. Once I presented my data to them and showed the 'Real life' results of the applications they almost all said the same things; "That cannot be", "That's impossible", "You are mistaken", "That goes against the laws of physics", "Nothing as thin as a thick coat of paint can possibly have an insulating effect as that" and just about everything else you can think of short of calling me a liar.

One more quick note. This paragraph indicates that you are supplying these labs with the results that you are looking for.............don't give them any data. Tell them what tests you want performed and leave it at that. I think your approach may be off...... what you are doing is telling them your results and looking for them to confirm them.

If they don't feel that their tests are going to show what you're looking for, they may just be trying to save you some money.

The first lab I talked to, I told them what we were, a coating. Then I told them what we do with it, paint attic AC units, the plenum and the attic ducts, attic water heater if one was there. Then I told them the average results we get. At that point they said 'That cant work, thats impossible, there is no test for that because it's never been done before". Later in the conversation they said it would require three different tests. I dont thinl they really had a clue.

The rest of the labs, the conversations pretty much went the same way. One was darn near rude in insisting we were mistaken.

All of them would have accepted our money no doubt. But to deal with someone that is adamately convinced we could NOT achieve what we have achieved definitely sat us back in our chairs. The man above me said no way was he going to cut a check to any of them as he did not trust them at that point.

They all say it is impossible but it does what it does, as impossible as it may sound.

It's like the only things they want to hear about or will even accept is something thick with an R-rating.

They suggested getting this that and the other tests done. NONE of them sounded confident their suggestions were the correct ones because, apperently, nobody ever applied a paint to these units for an insulation effect. My report back to the guy above me was a little frustrated for sure. I still dont know which tests are appropriate for our product for THOSE specific applications.

Government agencies dont know what to do with or think about us. The private labs, same thing. The foam and fiberglass insulation companies have a ton of money and I dont want to cast aspersions but I think these labs may do a lot of testing for them.

I dont know exactly what to do at this point.

Well, I still think this would be a great project for a tech school or university. The study would be objective and professional. It's worth a try.

If the test results are so confounding, why?

I don't blame the guy above you for not wanting to give several thousand dollars to people with that attitude. I wouldn't either.

Might not hurt to look for a much smaller local testing lab, also.

This sounds like a joke, but I wonder if Myth Busters would be interested.

If the "attic AC units, the plenum and the attic ducts, attic water heater" are all in the attic then there should be no sunlight to reflect. Therefore, my guess is that the color of the coating is far less significant than the R value.

How is your coating working if the benefit is not in the R-Value?

Imn the attic on those sufaces it is insulating them from all three modes of heat energy transfer.

Radiant heat gain - not solar reflectivy but radiant heat from the underside of the attic roof heats those units.

Convected heat gain - from the heated air in the attic. I still do not understand how but it does.

Conducted heat gain - this is the one that seems to cause all the lab folks to balk. The standard insulation in the attic gets heated by the radiatiant heat. That insulation is up agast the units, piled up against it or it buries the units. They are touching the units and heat transfer by conduction.

We have proven effective against all three and that seems like we are breaking an unwritten law of physics; a material that thin cannot be effective against all three modes of heat transfer.

What ASTM method/s should apply, that seems to be a big question also.

Hal

hal,

I think the main attribute of your product is a combination of reflectivity and it's non conductive properties. I'm a painting contractor, so I'm always interested in these things.

To a certain extent, regular, (less expensive), flat white paint will have the same properties.

I'm sure the NASA inspired ceramic beads are very non conductive, but then again, so is silica, one of the primary components in typical paint.

What I would like to see, is data, particularly as it pertains to the rooftop units and attic spaces, comparing your product to off the shelf flat white paint in a side to side comparison. Is your product going to be 35-40% more effective, justifying the higher cost?

All I'm seeing are numbers that compare substrates that have been coated with your product, as opposed to nothing at all.

I am curious, did you see the University study where identical buildings were compared, one with white paint and the other with the ceramic coating? Gary

WHAT study? Please give suitable references. (Why were they not given in the first place?)

Because these are brown facts & if you question these mythical utterances, you are expected to prove him wrong, instead of the normal procedure...

Hell if I know! I went to the Ceramatech International site on the internet and found the UNLV study posted there. Gary

I have added that study to our main page of our site. It was done as a masters thesis. I have a copy of the original executive abstract, it's like a phone book it is so thick.

I have also recently added some stills from what I only had on vhs tapes, thought they were lost for nearly 20 years, found in a box in the back of a storage closet. Still working on disecting the individual cases from each other. Will post the videos as soon as I can get them done. Have them all on digtal now but they are all strung together, too large a file to post.

The only way to make them avalable right now is to send a CD with the files on them.

We are working on it.

Hal

www.ct-texas.com

The Laboratories are not there to stamp your claims or assessments. Submit your samples to them and they will give you the results, In case you are not satisfied, those results are verifiable by cross reference to results from other Test Laboratories - Simple as that.

Once in a while something "That goes against the laws of physics" or when the Real Life results clearly depict impossible to be possible, what you need to do is submit your claims and assessments to any of the International Quality and Excellence Awards organisations, "present data to them and show the 'Real life results of the applications" their satisfaction provides you the requisite certificate you are looking for.

There are dozens of these Awards organisations, addresses can be googled out, I am just providing references to few of them;

http://www.worldquality.org/en/index.php

http://www.thequalityportal.com/q_awards.htm

http://www.thequalityportal.com/q_awards.htm

http://www.pierrechenxu-intl.com/awards.lasso

People are already selling this type of stuff to unsuspecting or gullible customers and have been for many years.

If you don't want to be laughed at you would have to show the mechanism that makes your 'stuff' work - lacking that you will be laughed at by anyone understanding insulation.

You don't need data to show them - you need to show how!

Russ

In as much as I would like to know the "how it works", I would settle for proof that it does. If it contains magic pixie dust or dirt, as long as it works and you have 3rd party data to confirm the claims, I'll bite. Gary

Third party data is very easy to come by. Look at the residential wind turbines. Just set the parameters right and you get the desired output from the lab.

If you have ever designed a refractory or insulation system you would realize that such claim are really pixie dust - as in fairy tales.

Reflective coating yes - insulation - no.

Russ

Russ 123,

I will be happy to send you a small cured sample on stitchbond polyester roofing cloth. Wrap that around a hot water pipe and feel or measure the temperature difference.

Go to our website, my email address is there. Send me your mailing address and I will send you one.

We dont ask or even expect anyone to believe what they see on that website. All we ask is for the opportunity to prove what we say is true.

Hal

www.ct-texas.com

@ Hal - Like I said yesterday - thanks but it would prove nothing.

ASTM is there precisely for this purpose.

Why are you avoiding proper testing?

http://depts.washington.edu/matseed/mse_resources/Webpage/Space%20Shuttle%20Tiles/Space%20Shuttle%20Tiles.htm

See description of HRSI tiles. This, I suspect is the magical pixie dust, aka silica, and yes, if this particular type of silica is mixed into paint in a proper concentration, it should theoretically, have insulating properties. Whether they are as advertised, I don't know, like I mentioned, silica is common in many paints.

Is this product better than regular flat white paint or elastomeric, maybe, but I suspect the difference would be small. Particularly when used as insulation in and around the home.

This pixie dust is also sold in packs on the internet to be mixed with paint.........boost the silica content, boost the insulating properties. Starting to sound not so magic.

Starting to sound not so pixie dust?

Quote, 'HRSI tiles - They vary in thickness from 2.54 cm (one inch) to 12.7 cm (five inches)' end quote - more than a layer of paint.

Where I have tried this type of material is:

1) interior of a firebox which was lined with ceramic fiber blanket - 250 to 400 mm thickness depending on the location - temp 1000 to 1200 degrees C - the inside of the blanket was painted with this type of material

2) interior of hot gas ducts lined with refractory brick - the inner surface was painted as per manufacturers instructions - operating temp of approximately 900 degrees C.

There are ASTM tests for insulating values of materials. They have well defined and worldwide accepted methods to determine thermal conductivity of materials. No new science need be developed. If the material does not show benefit during the tests there is no benefit.

I appreciate the offer to send a sample but the ASTM tests are what counts. I have no way to test it here other than wrapping the material around a pipe and holding it as you suggest but that is meaningless.

I have signed PO's for many millions of dollars of refractory materials and we did very much work in finding the best materials available. We dealt with virtually all the big boys in the refractory field. We knew what we were doing - like I said before we tried this paint one time to prove to ourselves either yes or no.

The statement of someone saying their electric bill was lower is totally meaningless. You can find thousands of people that swear by the power factor improvement devices and the fantastic savings - that only shows that the fools never knew what their bills were to begin with. You can not save money on something you were not paying for to start with.

Russ

Despite the fact that you have put Tinker Bell in a comma (due to your non belief), you now tell me that unless this product can withstand 900 to 1200 degrees, you write it off and are not willing to play with a free sample? Have you tested Cerama-Tech for the purpose it is intended (not some clay flower that you add to paint)? Not for refractory projects, but for the purpose of reducing heat gain or loss in small commercial or residential applications? You also don't believe that a capacitor can correct the power factor of older facilities. You paint with a broad brush. Gary

This is looking more & more like a scam, using this site to artificially generate some buzz

if the product acts as an insulator, the testing protocols are known & available

if the manufacturer is too dim to figure this out, I certainly wouldn't do business with them

if the Pixie Dust works, prove it, not with testimonials, but with real data

coming to this site to try to bootstrap your reputation is problematic at best

I realize that you are not the thread starter, but this wouldn't be the 1st time that there was a tag team involved in such devious shenanigans....

Pardon me! I took offense to the negative comments given to a member who asked for help. I have had the same problem with subjects such as hydroponic indoor growing and had a similar reaction. Pay attention to the request of the poster and stop trying to impress us with your genius by discrediting the poster. If you have proof that their method or product is inferior, then post it. Don't just spew a bunch of babble and ask that they prove you wrong. Offer help, when requested, if you have true experience with the product or procedure. Stop impressing yourself with diversions that are not on point. I will ask again, Have you experience with the product? If not, respond to the request for help or keep your negative comments to yourself. Gary

The member isn't making any sort of realistic request for help

just a rant designed to create some buzz & possibly elicit some sympathy

trying to find victims to do the work of testing their products

you appear to be helping in that endeavor...

I don't need to discredit OP[original poster], he's been doing a fine job all by himself

It is certainly not up to me to prove or disprove their claims, it's not my company or products

several members made similar observations about the testing question

I only added my suspicions about the true purpose of the posting [it is in commercial space]

I only find only one thread you have started, about a rehab in Houston, there was mention of rooftop gardens, nothing about hydroponics, so I don't know what your frustration is on that subject

did the building ever close? I don't see the follow up you promised?

if you don't like what I have to say, you can skip it or mark it off topic

I appreciate your comments when they add substance to the conversation. The building is still owned by the City and is still in negotiations. I assure you, I will be asking for all opinions once we have the project. The post that I had frustration with was "A crop sprouts without soil or sunshine". You are certainly entitled to your suspicions, however to infer (in writing) that someone is party to a "Tag team fraud" is a bit much for you to publish. Such damaging allegations should be kept to ones self failing verifiable proof. Regardless, what do you think the single most energy saving and inexpensive improvement one can make to a residential or light commercial structure is? Gary

I had a look here

you're wrong

the only way it makes sense is for weed or some other high value crop

maybe without the lights, even then it still works better with soil

Russ has it right, cheaper to ship stuff in

there may be a tiny niche of high end restaurants who would pay the premium prices

the best improvement is solar hot water :D

When you make statements like "you're wrong" in any open discussion, you're wrong! As I had explained in that thread, the intent of the project was not to feed the masses at a lower cost. It was to utilize blighted spaces and encourage local produce production without the transportation costs. Write a letter to the school who is participating in this experiment and recommend that they grow weed if you wish. Gary

Flat plate or Tube? Gary

@ Gary - Membership in a free club does not mean a heck of a lot. Especially one where no one knows anyone or their qualifications. I suggest you be careful when you talk about spewing babble - you are well into it.

When someone asks for help but hasn't done their homework there is no reason to be overly concerned. There are ASTM tests to prove insulating values accepted worldwide - no secrets involved. If you talk to a lab and start explaining how they probably can't test your material or can't show it does well even though it does they will start to chuckle and go on about their work.

The lab cares less about data you have collected - they will do the tests and collect their own. If they just accept your data then the entire thing is meaningless.

High rise hydroponics? Still off in never-never land. Keep after it though - eventually land prices will become high enough or pollution high enough that it will be viable - another few hundred years. In the meantime call Capt. Kirk.

Power factor improvement devices - how in the world can a device save you money on something you don't pay for to start out with? If you like that one then you should try a magnetic water softener - there is a small window of possibility that it may actually function.

Russ

Russ, I was not the OP of this request for help.

Do you have any proof that the Cerama-Tech product doesn't work? Do you have any proof that capacitors do not correct the power factor? Do you think that planting indoor is a negative program? Gary

CR4 Admin: Post edited.

This post was edited because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Capacitors do correct power factor imbalances, problem is watts is watts, just because you feel like it saves you money doesn't make it so & once again not up to anyone here to prove the negative

It's not up to us to determine if Pixie Dust works, as has been explained in more than one way

Indoor planting is possible, but once again that doesn't make it a good use of resources, which has also been explained in more than one way

Ok - let me answer this 'technically'.

"Power factor" is measured with a dynamometer watt meter.

What one does is note the watts reading, then take Amps and Volts separately.

By dividing the products, one obtains the power factor. It may be 'leading' or 'lagging'

If it is far from unity, the current flow will be higher, so copper losses higher.

HOWEVER - most 'consumer meters' are the dynamometer design, so measure 'true consumption', not V x A.

So - unless your system is 'way out', you are paying for true watts irrespective of power factor.

The above being Russ's point.

BUT, if you do power factor correct a totality cockeyed load, you will see a 'less loss' situation, particularly for the utility providers generation efficiency.

I.e it is worth doing, if not hugely for your own system resistive/heat losses, but also against escalation in supply cost.

It is also quite necessary in an alternate power setup.

Thanks guys, what does this have to do with the price of rice in china? I know that I did get a little perturbed about the way you have treated Hal and did express my discontent with the way that your group strays from the original request of an OP, however, I don't think it requires an exorcism. 34point5, I would love to discuss this on another day, however, my point remains, How can people on this group get away with talking trash without proof? They should do some research before making such blanket statements. I am no expert on any subject except how we should treat one another. If you get satisfaction by insulting others, I will stand up and make a scene every time. If this is bad, I apologize. Gary

OK Rust. If you are so closed minded that you dont even want a sample to experiment with, that's up to you.

Just out of curiosity, did you test the other ceramic materials with an Infra Red gun? If so, you did not test ours, doesnt work on ours. How do you know what our coating can or cannot do if you have never had any to test?

Say hello to the other good ole boys.

Hal, your on your own with that one. Russ, please explain your comment about power factor correction using capacitors. I sincerely want your expertise on that. I may be an idiot, however, I installed a capacitor on my compound in Texas and have seen a positive effect in my power bill. I added a couple of window units after adding the capacitor and have still seen a reduction from last year to this, despite the temperatures being relatively the same. Gary

Garth, I didn't intend to ignore your comment. I keep an open mind and search for products that reduce residential energy bills at a cost that we poor folk can afford. I cherish the opinions that I get from this group when they are constructive. I have been a member for awhile and if you doubt my resolve, feel free to check my posts in the past. What do you think the most inexpensive procedure one can perform on their residence or small business to reduce energy expenditures would be? I will contribute what I have found to work in my quest. Please do the same. Gary

(Replying to 23 as well as 24)

I wonder what was the variation over time of your kw, kva, and PF before installing the capacitor, and after? How many var or kvar is the capacitor? How much did the capacitor cost, including installation. How much "positive effect" has there been on the bill? Is there anything not merely anecdotal in your data?

If you can come up with a less scientific approach to proving something I would like to know how. That does prove one thing only - you had a power bill last year and have one this year.

Here, I take power readings on four meters every morning plus the level in the water tank and four water meter readings. If something changes I can verify it.

I plan to install additional meters and a modbus communications system to automate the data collection but don't have spare cash right now. Data is everything - with it you can make connections between events and modifications. Without the data you can make a WAG and great claims but no one will believe you.

BTW - never stopped beating the wife - never started either - you seem to have a real problem with wives? Something going on?

Just out of curiosity:

1. What preparation has to be performed before application?

2. What is the life span of the paint? (UV protection)

3. If it has to be reapplied what is the procedure before the second coat is applied?

4. By how much does the attic reduce in temperature?

5. How many layers of paint are applied?

6. What are the man hours involved for, say, 100m²

7. What is the machinery involved? Compressor, spry gun etc

8. What is the curing period?

9. what is the cost of covering 100m²

10. What is the minimum order quantity?

If I could have some information about these points I would appreciate it and start thinking about it ($).

Have one on me, Ky.

1. What preparation has to be performed before application? It depends on what application we are talking about. Application specs are on the site, link towards the bottom of the main page.

2. What is the life span of the paint? (UV protection) It comes with a 15-year warranty. We have had it on the roofs of a few casinos in Vegas for about 25 years now and still doing just fine. There is a house near me that was painted (stucco walls) 22 years ago and also doing just fine, no cracks or oxidation at all. We don't really know how long it will last.

3. If it has to be reapplied what is the procedure before the second coat is applied? The only time I have ever heard of that happening is when someone wanted to change the color. Light pressure washing and a coat good enough to cover the old color, normally around 150 SQ ft per gallon on light texture stucco. You would have to fly someone over here to be certified by our distributor.

4. By how much does the attic reduce in temperature? Metal roof, mineral capsheet, comp shingle???? It will also depend on the attic itself. I have an example of an egg processing plant on a 105 degree afternoon. It dropped the roof temp from 186 degrees down to 110 degrees. It dropped the attic temp by 60 degrees according to the plant manager.

5. How many layers of paint are applied? One coat in almost all cases. Some prefer to do it in 2 for interior walls.

6. What are the man hours involved for, say, 100m^{2 Once} cleaned, our guys can spray around 20,000 sq ft of metal roof in a day, a little less for walls but they are very experienced with it too.

7. What is the machinery involved? Compressor, spry gun etc Takes a strong airless gas rig, roller or brush.

8. What is the curing period? Dry to the touch in 1 to 2 hours normally. You can intentionally get some off at 10 days, full curing time is 28 days. After that, good luck.

9. what is the cost of covering 100m^{2 Application rates vary quite a bit depending on what you are coating. Metal is 125 to 150 sq ft per gallon, stucco averages 125 sq ft but can drop as low as 75 sq ft for a very heavy} textured stucco. Mineralk capsheet – 2 gallons per square but can drop a little lower depending on the age / condition of the capsheet.

10. What is the minimum order quantity? Only comes in 5-gallon pails

If I could have some information about these points I would appreciate it and start thinking about it ($). Contractors - $75.00 per gallon + shipping. Retail - $105.00 per gallon.

Have one on me, Ky.

Have you tried to enter into a strategic alliance with the lab? It will cost you down the line but who cares if the technology is that good it will sell. Certification=enhanced credibility. This is what it is about, or what?.

Sharing is sometimes the way to go and I don't mean insults or rudeness. Get a grip on your self and try a more friendly approach. Swinging an ax here in CR4 has never been of advantage, to any one. You can give it a try but the outcome will not be what you guys are after.

Look at the bloody style (tenor) of this thread by now. I will stop to cooperate, collaborate although I am a treasure trove of knowledge on the subject. Good luck anyway, Ky.

IR guns are more or less useless - depending on the emissivity of a material the temperature shown is maybe an indicator in direction. If you use an IR gun and send ten people out separately to take the same measurement you will normally get 10 different measurements.

All temperature measurements we did that we cared about were by using a digital contact thermometer.

How do I know your material doesn't work? How do I know a piece of lava rock will sink when I throw it into the lake.

There are ASTM testing methods - use them. Hire someone that knows something about refractory characteristics. I have a feeling that there may not be an engineer within throwing distance of your works.

There must be someone manufacturing refractories you can talk to on the phone at least if not meet in person. Get a copy of the ASTM tests - available at nominal charge on the net. Get yourself some basis to talk.

When you come around trying to get people to accept something that, at best, is very different you better have something more than testimonials to offer. As I mentioned before, I consider testimonials worse than useless.

There really is no argument here, that I can see.

1) White is reflective

2) Silica is not very conductive, some less so than others.

3) halskinners product exhibits insulating properties.

4) It's not magic.

5) halskinner is looking for a lab that verifies that his product is magic, ultimately producing increased sales.

6) All halskinner is looking for in his OP, is a lab that will back up his claims.

7) Testing labs seem unwilling to do so.

8) Anything that claims to reduce heating and cooling bills by a minimum of 30-40% or more and does not provide a written guarantee is probably not accurate in their claims.

9) If halskinner has this much faith in his product, who needs tests, give the guarantee and people will be knocking down your doors.

10) If halskinner can find a lab to verify his claimed results, no guarantee is necessary, failures will fall back on the lab........hence the lack of cooperation.

"halskinner is looking for a lab that verifies that his product is magic, ultimately producing increased sales."

Actually I was looking for someone at a lab to explain to me what test was appropriate for coating / painting/ insulating attic units. They rattled off a few ASTM numbers but when I told themn the results we experience by doing that, THAT was when they all started treating it as snake oil and saying it cannot work like that.

Because it keeps out the heat in the hot months and retains heat in the cold months,, nobody was sure what test would be appropriate. One said we would have to have 3 different ones.

None of them gave the same replies.

Before we spend that money, how do we know which test is the one EVERYONE will accept.

You are trying to show the insulating value of the material. That is what the lab would test for.

You have to fit existing tests or go to a lot of extra expense to have something different developed - far more than a couple of thousand bucks. Many new structures must have energy code compliant materials used - without some kind of certification you will miss the biggest market.

As far as keeping heat out of the attic - Dow XPS foam or equivalent does it well enough. On the hottest day of the year, our house which has full exposure to the sun is comfortable in the attic. The tile on top is LaFarge cement tile which stays relatively cool itself. Haven't measured it but you can hold your hand on it with no problem on the same hottest day - means it is no more than 55 degrees C.

The summer sun here would be similar to the valley in CA - lots of it.

Where I come from, it snows in the winter, and the trucks plow up snow banks.. they also sand the roads.

Come spring time, when the plowed banks turn into ice, there is part that is white and part that is dark, where the sand has been mixed with the snow..

The part where the sand is tends to accumulate the sand on the surface of the ice after a bit of melting.

Once this situation occurs, the clear ice or white ice disappears rapidly, and the dirty ice can take days longer to melt.

I would assume that the sand has an insulating and absorptive effect which slows the rate of melt.

Even the thinnest tint or silver on windows can reduce the heat lost to radiation, and change the MRT (mean radiant temperature) which is standard practice in office towers.

best wishes

go paint an igloo!! prove your point!

Chris

Interesting set of reactions in this thread.

Maybe not adding "Good Ole Boys Club??" - would have been a better foot to start on.

Anyhow it appears the 'help required' is how to specify a set of test protocols that will be acceptable to the market, successfully differentiate your product; and be practical in the lab; and above reproach.

Test protocol design is a highly skilled job.

Usually takes time, so costs significant money.

Looking for the Lab to do it for free is unlikely to work.

Even less so, if you keep moving the 'goal posts' on what you want - as you have done above - or only 'supply information in defense', as you have been doing.

So I think you need to decide if you are seeking help, or advertising, or just here to prove a 'conspiracy' by making us part of it.

GA - but you are still doing it for him - and in spite of the attitudes express toward you.

Great CR4-manship, but I would prefer to see evidence of these two 'getting the message' before anyone 'does the extra yards'.

I am not directing this at anyone in particular. I would never make any comment in regards to a hydroponic garden or capacitors. I have never dealt with them and I am not qualified to give any opinion for that very reason.

I am going to add a little story here to inject a little humor as many of the responses here dont even qualify as respectful in my book.

-----------------------------------------

A little Umpire Humor

There was a break between games at one tournament. An umpire was sitting in the stands pretty much by himself, relaxing and reading a book. A team coach, also between games, came and sat down a few feet away.

After a few minutes the coach say's "Let's talk, it will make the time pass faster". The umpire looks up and say's "What would you like to discuss?" The coach replies "How about the pitching regulations".

The umpire says, "OK, that could make for some pretty interesting conversation. But let me ask you a question first.: A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff. However the deer excretes pellets; the cow, big patties; and the horse, clumps of dried grass. Why is that?" The coach say's, "I don't know."

The umpire then says, "Oh? Well then, do you really think you're qualified to discuss the pitching regulations when YOU DON'T KNOW CRAP?"

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I have been working with this product for 25 years. I have been given opportunities to apply it in situations and specific applications that others have not. I HAVE gone up against MANY of our competitors, side-by-side tests / demonstrations, in California, Nevada and Arizona. I jumped on those opportunities every time, for around 15-years. At that point it got old, expensive as heck and redundant because I have already tested against whatever product and I already had the evidence they were seeking.

About 10 years ago I STARTED SAYING NO! I would send them a sample and say test it for yourself.

I am an expert on this product. I am not an expert on the other products that say they are the same or better than ours. I have testede against most of then and I already know what we do compared to whomever.

I would not make a comment on the hydroponic gardens or capacitors because I have no experience with them. I dont know crap about them.

Cerama-Tech is an exclusive product, sold only to exclusive distributors. If you have NO experience with this product, how can you pass judgement on it?? How can you lump it in with all the other products?? HOW CAN YOU TELL ME IT WILL DO SOMETHING OR CANNOT DO SOMETHING WHEN YOU DONT KNOW CRAP ABOUT IT??

I related my experience when dealing with these labs. I thought my question was a simple one; anyone else have to go through this with them, or was it just me??

I certainly didnt expect it to turn into what it has turned into. I am also not trying to sell it to anyone. Unless you are trained and certified to apply it, I cant sell it to you anyway.

Hal

www.ct-texas.com

Oh gee!

Quit blowing smoke and get the stuff qualified by available standards.

I and others have pointed out many times there are ASTM standards that are accepted worldwide.

Your conflicting statements?

1) About 10 years ago I STARTED SAYING NO! I would send them a sample and say test it for yourself.

2) I am also not trying to sell it to anyone. Unless you are trained and certified to apply it, I cant sell it to you anyway.

The one who doesn't know crap (to use your words) is quite clear to most of us.

Your approach to the labs must be the problem. Tell them you want them to test the insulating properties of your material. Don't give them a long spiel about your data - they don't care about it. Forget about attics and all that as they will not be testing it in an attic.

Thanks you for not offering it for sale as I am not interested at 100 dollars per gallon anyway - until authority I trust has tested it and certified the stuff as doing what you are telling us.

Russ

A handful of energy raters suggested I get our product certified for it's different applications in attics. This is why I contacted those labs in the first place, the energy raters said painting ANYTHING on these things was unheard of.

1. I explained what our product is, a coating that looks and is applied like paint.

2. I explained exactly what we do in the attics and how we did it.

3. I explained what type of results we get afterwards.

4. I asked if they could tell me what ASTM testing method applies to a paint-like coating and if their lab did that particular test.

At that point they all balked and starting telling me what I jhave already outlined.

I gave them no spiel or anything of the sort. They started saying what I was telling them was impossible and it could not be. I sent a few of them some of the statements and results I have on file. They still said it cannot be.

A couple of these phone conversations lasted well over an hour. I got different answers almost every time.

It has turned into a matter of trust now; go we trust these people to give us a fair test? I am not sure.

It has been too many years since I worked with a testing lab in the states - maybe 40. Many other places in the world but not in the US.

I suggest that maybe first you want to establish a base case for insulating value. That is a standard test with no big explanations involved. Find a lab that you can feel comfortable working with but don't try to impress them with your in house tests - they won't care.

ASTM (to the best of my knowledge) does not have tests for insulating paint. Why get hung up on the paint part though? There are tests for insulating value such as for a brick or blanket material - your claims are that the paint does the same.

With that for a basis you could later devise some special tests for your particular applications. They should be accepted by most.

The important part about the standard tests is that anyone anywhere in the world can replicate the test and results.

I have no idea what Energy Star would require but guaranteed their demands will be by the book.

Russ

I expect that the testing labs get hit up with some off the wall BS from time to time and really don't think they have time or interest in it. You don't want them to dump you into that category.

Present your case - possibly using some of the suggestions from various of us here but don't offend the sensibilities of the lab people - they are engineers and accustomed to facts - not fancy talk.

Russ

It is a matter of trust

I spent maybe 5 minutes on the astm site to conclude your product resembles mastic of some sort.

if you don't trust any of the labs, someone is going to have to drill down & figure out how your product fits into their [or which ever standards organization] system. someone who is familiar with your[or similar products] will have to objectively make decisions about how you are going to certify & market

This process is going to cost time or money, your are too close to be objective

Is there someone else in the company who can do the research?

I think you just shot yourself in the foot there, and a lot of that has been happening on this thread.

Your product looks like a decent product, but you may be trying to oversell it without suitably testing all its properties.

The weird thing is that though you may have a good product, the wordings and concepts you (and gcoffing) are using make you sound like a snake-oil salesman. I don't think that's the case, but your approach is not reassuring.

The conversation did degrade a little, I think the hydroponic stuff was spillover from another thread.

This is an engineering forum. You started the thread. You provided a link to a website, making all kinds of fantastic claims. If you only wanted to know if Cert. Labs were a good ole boys club, you didn't need to mention your product at all.

Can you blame people here for being sceptical? We ask questions, and so far you have avoided telling us anything about this wonderful product, but want us to agree with you. Customer comments are not going to cut it.

You've been working with this product for 25 years, and in one of your posts, you claim that you don't know how it does what it does..........really?

The reason for the responses that you're getting from the testing labs is probably the same as the responses you're getting here. You want them to prove that it does what it does, but won't discuss what's in it to give it these properties, how it supposedly works, or any other details, besides that it's great.

Some people have given, what I think are good ideas, but they seem to be falling on deaf ears. I for one, at this point, can't figure out what you want from us.

The only thing I've been able to figure out at this point, is that if you guys can spray out 20,000 ft a day......roughly about 100 gallons, your making some nice money at the price you're charging.

PS- One more idea. If you want the certification labs to cooperate, have them sign a confidentiality/nondisclosure agreement and give them your secret recipe. They would probably like to know what it is they're testing.

Even the Dept. Of Energy will tell you that the best you can possibly expect from a white reflective roof coating is a reduction in heat transfer of 10% to 15% max.

Perhaps I should have said, I dont fully understand whay it performs AS WELL AS IT DOES. It also bonds to things / suirfaces that nothing else will.

At any rate, here are a few videos for those that are only visual learners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGaKytKT8XQ 1988. This URL is the video from our testing at an ice cream plant in Fresno, Cal. Tested on mineral capsheet and galvanized walls. Energy calcs and company statement available on request.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-7Vv6x_bpE 1989. This is the video URL for the Anheuser - Busch Nevada distributorship test. I tested Cerama-Tech on mineral capsheet, metal roof, large roll up metal doors, AC units and several smaller applications. We had the energy calcs performed by SDG&E engineers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Vq74oMoQY This is the video of some homeowners in Mariposa Calif. They did their own real life test of Cerama-Tech on their own mobile home. It does not look real impressive but the temperature readings are a great demonstration of Cerama-Tech vs standard white paint.

These VHS videos were thought to be lost for almost 20 years.

Someone found one in a box in their storage building. Recently had them put to digital format. The video quality of the ice cream plant video is not great, it had degraded a little over those years.

We have been producing results of 50%+ reductions in BTU's and heat transfer for well over 20 years. For more recent results, check our websites.

Hal

Hey hal,

I've looked into it. It does work, not just in your product, but others too. The reason it works better than just white paint, is that the ceramic micro-beads are hollow, this basically introduces tiny pockets of air into the paint film........air is a horrible conductor of radiant heat. As far as adhesion, that has nothing to do with the ceramic beads, but the paint formulation itself. Many manufacturers are making great strides in the adhesion of waterborne paints.

I saw a demo of this technology when it first came out, and was impressed with it. The only reason I can think of that it is not in greater use, is the expense. I looked into the cost of the beads themselves........even at wholesale, they're not cheap.

BTW, I hope your not using that demo with the side of the double wide trailer in your advertising. The ceramatech side was painted solid. The other side left a perimeter of dark brown existing paint around the test area, which would obviously raise the temperature inside the wall. Looked like a scam from the beginning.

Hi Kramrat. Not sure if I have already put this in one of my replies on this thread or not.

As of around 10 years or so ago, Cerama-Tech International bought the company that produces the microscopic ceramic PLATELETS that are suspended in the material. It is the only company that possesses the technology to do that with the ceramic material used in the formula. That was the only way we could ensure that no other company ever accessed that ceramic material. Many attempts to reverse engineer it have been made. The lab technicians can tell you everything that goes into making it, except the ceramic material used. They have yet to determine that.

A couple good lab techs will tell you what makes up the composition inside a few weeks, except the ceramic material. However, it's not the material so much as it is the formula; it will take them 50 years to figure that part out. Multi-step process and that is one of the reasons it is not cheap. It's not cheap to make, it doesnt perform like the cheap products and it does nort have a cheap price tag.

Our product bonds to surfaces that no other paint or coating will. It penetrates into materials far better than other coating products. That is because of the process and the formula.

There is standard R-rated insulation in the walls of the mobile home in the video. If that is what is responsible for the difference in readings between the two, then the R-rated stuff isnt doing squat. If the R-rated insulation is allowing THAT much heat to travel a foot or so upwards to the probe, then the R-rated insulation is doing nothing to stop heat transfer even by convection and that is all it is designed to function against.

We had zero input into this test and video by these very nice folks. They are obviously NOT professional actors and they appear and talk like they just walked out of a swamp. That is the video they sent us, in all its glory.

Hey hal,

Sounds like you have a good thing going. I was thinking you were using the same ceramic beads made by 3M and others.

You also indicated that you were booked up with work......another good thing!

I have to tell you, with the economy being what it is, even if I had access to your material, where I live, I would be hard pressed to come up with clients that would be willing to pay that kind of money for what they would regard, as a paint job.

It's possible that your paint has been reverse engineered, but no one feels it's worth while to try to duplicate it because of the costs involved.

Have you had any success with independent lab certification of your product?

I'm very interested in this being applied in paint formulation. It may be what they are using, since the nano particles are indeed, discs, or platelets. I've been thinking about this for years.

http://www.physorg.com/news125751309.html

We are awaiting results from a year long test at a national laboratory. All other testing is in limbo until those results come in.

If our coating ONLY does what it normally does, their report should be very interesting.

Regarding the brown paint vs our paint on that trailer again; I added some more information on our site from the test of our coating vs standarsd white paint conducted by the MechanicaL Engineering Dept of UNLV.

Let me know when you get those results. I'd like to see them.