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Problems with Snow

11/28/2010 5:51 PM

A friend of mine, who lives in the Canary Islands and so has never seen real snow, has some quite interesting idea.

It is hard to believe that millions of learned people all around the Planet have not considered this before.

A powerful snowfall would be of 6 cm to the hour or 60 mm to the hour. This makes one millimeter per minute.

In developed Countries it is hard to conceive a road with an ocupancy of less than one vehicle per Km.

If the vehicles run at a safe speed of 60 Km/h = One Km per minute, if we look at a determined point, one vehicle will pass every minute.

Now, if the vehicles, or a mojority of them wear snow plowers, they would have to sweep one millimeter of snow.

¡But this is riduculous! (You probably think)¡You cannor even see one mm of snow!

Exactly, this is why a trowaway simple snow plower would be more than sufficient.

If you think that in a bad snowstorm there would never be one vehicle per Kilometer, probably this is false; because people would not be scared trusting in such a miraculous new antisnow system.

The real problem is: How do you get the people to use these primitive snowplowers?.

By the Governments renting them for free, storing them at small storehouses, at the beginning of each (Prone to be affected) section of road?

Having them installed and recovered in seconds by Government Employees.

Or giving an incentive to drivers wanting to use them?

The simplified and effective snowplow has been already designed by my friend and me. It is very effective and it throws the small quantity of snowdust far away from the road surface.

Due to the efficiency of the system, there is no time for ice to form.

Although the problems with this "Invention" are mostly sociological, I cannot say that there would'nt be some technical problems, because, of course it has never been tested. And probably never will be.

Chorete

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#1

Re: Problems with snow

11/28/2010 6:45 PM

Think snow drift. Think blizzard. You are correct, it will not be used, besides, how will we get to work in the morning with 50 cm of snow on the ground?

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#12
In reply to #1

Re: Problems with snow

11/29/2010 11:56 PM

I remember that approx. forty years ago there was a VW commercial asking how a snow plower operator went to work. Shown was a VW Beatle during a snow storm...

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#2

Re: Problems with snow

11/28/2010 7:50 PM

I for one would be happy to see more people equipped and using snow plows on the road! for the same reason, Chorete.

But it is true, there are not many drivers out at night especially in bad weather. A throwaway plow would be of no use when you get up in the morning after 50 cm of snow has fallen. It would fail in the drifts. And the chassis of the car or truck can be broken, as well as the plow, if the load is too heavy.

People who have plows on their vehicle, where I live, don't generally use them on the road, either. I have seen it and wondered sometimes, why not improve the situation for your fellow drivers and yourself... I expect there is a law that prevents a citizen from doing a bit of plowing on the way home. Probably in part, because plows can also damage the road from time to time, and then there would be issues of liability.... not the same when the government damages its own road.

I have noticed that our public works people do not go out and plow or sand the minute there is a cm of snow. They expect a certain amount to be melted by the traffic. It's a bit annoying really - they seem to be waiting for accidents reported before they will take care of the roads...

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#3

Re: Problems with Snow

11/28/2010 8:29 PM

It would never work due to the irregularities in road surfaces. A plow would never be able to keep constant contact with the road surface and if it did, it would damage the surface. Maybe a high pressure air sweep in front of the car would work.

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#4

Re: Problems with Snow

11/28/2010 11:54 PM

Good idea, but the practical application sucks. Let me explain:

1. You have to push/blow that snow to the left (into the path of the bloke to your left), to the right (into the path of the bloke to your right), or up over your car (into the face of the driver behind you). It has to go somewhere, and down doesn't work either.

2. Any vehicle carrying these things will necessarily get worse gas mileage for the time they are carrying dead weight, while they snow is not falling. Whose going to pay for that?

3. I personally live in the desert, and certainly do not want to pay for it by government mandate.

4. My personal favorite: "Having them installed and recovered in seconds by Government Employees." I splarfed on that one! Try hours with rose coloured glasses, days if your lucky, and months in reality.

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#5

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 8:01 AM

A snowplow is hard on the front end of a vehicle most are not design to handle it. I for one would not want the damage it would do to the small car I drive.

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#6

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 8:55 AM

The basic idea of the Canarian is like this: There is a battle between two armies. In one side Nature with its powerful snowstorms and in the other, The People armed with the tremendous total Power of their millions of cars.

Who'll win?

The People, of course, if they collaborate.

The idea is to use very light snowplows made with a relatively thin steel wire and a light brush. one in each front wheel, screwed to the rim, with an idle bearing, at a very inclined angle and overlapping each other.

No damage to roads. no accident in case of failure, and a very effective throwing of the snow to the right of the road (If in right driving Country).

This is for a two lane two directions road.

In case of multilane highways, it is true that you would spoil the lane of the guy to your right. But this is a small problem. He woud not have any problem with ¡Two! millimeters of snow, instead of one.

Eliminate the absurdity of having Government Employees installing the plows and substitute them for people from a private Company. Who pays this Company?. The Government or the drivers. I guess that drivers would be penalized if they refuse to get the plows installed.

Or The governments, considering the losses due to a snowstorm, pays people to use the plows.

This system woud be better for Countries like Spain where people live in highly concentrated towns. So he problems always arise in main roads.

But I agree that there'll be a problem in Countries with very low density suburbs, you cannot expect drivers cleaning your local access road all the night long, and so in the morning your toy plow would be useless against 50 cm of snow.

The idea seems to be good, and so the purpose of this discussion is to find if there is any possibility of making it work.

What about the Governments paying drivers who want to make an extra money to keep driving with toy plows, that could be rented for free, when nobody wants to drive?

Similar things have been made, for example with Armies of the People as in Switzerland.

The worst problem seems to be the local roads.

Chorete

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 12:35 PM

For much snowing day do not drive or use a public bus for your safety.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 1:09 PM

I don't mean to be rude, but I have to ask. Is that you in that picture? If so what happened?

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 1:17 PM

Yes that is me,but what happened to me i can not tell for my personal safety.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 4:46 PM

then why put that photo up at all? Want sympathy?

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 1:10 AM

All I can say is that he sure ain't pretty!

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 2:00 AM

And ain't that smart if he thinks that's "hiding".

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#23
In reply to #15

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 4:02 PM

The Emperors clothes for maniacs. Give him a break, he had enough by now

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 5:54 PM

Sorry to say that,all the last 4 posts are from rude and impolite persons,how you know about the circumstances he faces ? be batter guy's ! you may face the same thing or even worst in the future.

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#31
In reply to #25

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 3:16 PM

Did you just tell them to be batter guys? hasn't the guy had enough of a beating, does he really need someone batting on him?

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#35
In reply to #31

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 4:19 PM

RCE, I think you interpreted "be batter guys" incorrectly.

As I'm quite good at, the secrete of good tempura batter is just use ice combined with the flour as the ice melts. You may add a tiny bit of ice water if the coating proves too thick.

If you are accustomed to adding egg or beer, it may be difficult to believe 'just ice' works, at all, never mind so well. And, I believe, by just attempting the new skill, all members could become 'better batter guys'!

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 5:24 PM

G'day Mate

Just a little variation on the theme, tip from the old kitchen hand.

Bring the batter to the stage you describe and then ad some beaten egg white (keep that in the fridge) to the mix. Ala minute sort of stuff, only ad just before it hits the, in my case very hot grape seed oil. The egg white should be sweet to taste, just the way you like your coffee. You would not believe it Mate. Crunch, caramelization and colour.

If my stay in Singapore was good for something, this "trick" was worth it, Ky.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 6:19 PM

Eggselent , We'll have All CR4 battering better in no time!

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 6:51 PM

I'm hearing you , running from under table OFF TOPIC discussion,

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#39
In reply to #37

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 6:52 PM

Well I'm gameta giveitago - who knows, mebee I'll neva beata betta bita batta, or neva eata betta bita beatn batta .

[Does it need beating, whisking, just misking or what?]

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 7:45 PM

Yeah John you should try it. Beat the egg stiff while adding icing sugar, not too much, just that hint of it. Then ad to the batter and fold in. If you like it hot ad some white pepper. Don't use large pieces because due to the sugar it does brown faster and the object battered will under cook.

You know, I might just beat a better batter tonight, come to think of it. Gosh, this is OT enough to batter a platter.

Enjoy, Ky.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 8:18 PM
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#33
In reply to #25

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 3:32 PM

I think that miserable man suffered from beating either by terrorist group, theft gang ,or stiff police department - who nows ?

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#22
In reply to #6

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 3:04 PM

Back in the 19th century, before cars, it was the responsibility of the land owner to keep the public roads open. This was no easy task as some farms would have kilometers of road frontage. But the farmer would break trail with a sleigh or tracked vehicle drawn by horse. Some back roads were poorly populated and never were opened in the winter. People would hunker down where they lived.

Today of course in countries that experience lots of snow, the municipality, county, etc would plow the roads or contract the plowing to private snow plowers, well equipped.

I am not sure where you obtained your figures for snow accumulation but I swear I have seen much higher rates. The wet snow on cold ground can accumulate quite fast and I think 30 cm / hour may be common, especially on the west coast of North America or the Jutland Peninsula, or in the lee of the Great lakes. Often the snow is blowing and drifting and visibility is about a car length or two. Night driving in these conditions is particularly mesmerizing with the headlights on.

Your idea may have some merit in the Canaries but not everywhere. It would be too dangerous (snow plows create a large turbulent zone of visibility) and not uniform for real driving. My 0 cents or none sense worth.

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#43
In reply to #6

Re: Problems with Snow

12/03/2010 12:47 PM

"I guess that drivers would be penalized if they refuse to get the plows installed."

It shall be called OBAMAPLOW

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#11

Re: Problems with Snow

11/29/2010 10:44 PM

Everyone could carry a bag or two of sand in their trunk as well as a snow shovel. When you're stuck in that long line of traffic that isn't going anywhere just shovel the 10 or 20 feet around your car and then throw some sand around and traffic would again move until you had to do it again. Then it wouldn't take 4 hours to go the 20 miles to get home like it did for me last winter. :-D

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#13

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 12:14 AM

Hi Chorete,

An interesting concept, but with some things not considered.

Wind ... most precipitation does not simply fall down ... it is blown. I have seen snow drifts more than 2 feet high form in about an hour.

[several years ago, I took my little sister to see a movie in a nearby town ... when we left it was just a few flurries, roads were clear, no sign of any trouble ... 90 minutes later when we came out of the theater, there was a blizzard with a heavy wind. We tried to drive back the 15 miles to our home, but didn't make it. Hit a drift, spun around, and were stuck. We walked the last mile home, with drifts almost to my crotch. All that in only 90 minutes!!! THE BIGGEST PROBLEM, THOUGH, WAS MY MOTHER SHE WAS REALLY ANGRY.]

Different elements ... Snow is not just the 'snow-globe' fluffy stuff, but can be wet and heavy, mixed with sleet or rain ... or worse, freezing rain.

All this said, tell your friend in the Canary Islands not to give up ... some of the greatest ideas "couldn't be done" .

Kind regards ...

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#16

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 8:48 AM

Think positive. Snows pretty, the earth needs a blanket to keep warm,
The snow sparkles, diamonds everywhere! It bestows everything a magical
feeling, a world alive but sleeping, readying itself for spring, and sunshine.

So put on your ski's, a nice warm coat, and enjoy the delights, the fun,
the excitement of falling down a hill or mountain on two planks of wood.
Return to a hot bowl of soup, a good meal, and warming spirits. (bottle type)

Thank God you're alive. Many are ill, in hospital, or bed, yet you have all
this splendour and wonderful world to enjoy, every day. Make mine forever.

Ho, Ho, Ho, let it snow, let it snow. let it snow. I love it.

jt.

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getting very ratty. The last straw was when the fairy brought in a Christmas
tree and asked him where to put it? He told her.

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#17

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 9:01 AM

I am sure that people living in cold areas where snow is the norm could think of many ideas that would keep people in warm countries cool on a Sunny day - Arrange palm trees in lines to provide shade on remote pathways?

On holiday in Finland, I noticed people went shopping with ski mounted shopping trolleys. There were also some highly sophisticated snow plough/blower systems with hydraulic levelling etc. I am sure that the idea of attaching disposable snow ploughs to cars has occurred to the people who developed these items, but the problem is that the unit needs to be too robust (to counter obstacles etc) to be used by the average car and there are usualy no substantial bracket attachments to fix it to.

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#18

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 10:46 AM

Good idea, a simple UHMW blade at an angle would sweep and blow light snow to the side. If just 10% of the cars carried it only a full out blizzard would keep it from working. Old VW's set up with off-road tires seemed to go anywhere.

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#19

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 11:12 AM

What is the impact on gas mileage, it may not even be approved for general usage if the decline in gas mileage is substantial.

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#20

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 12:57 PM

Street squigee... I like it. Too bad it is, as you suggest, entirely impractical.

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#24
In reply to #20

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 4:08 PM

I like the entirely bit the best.

On the other hand when Mao told every Chinese to kill 10 flies a day it worked. The people executed because they didn't want to participate is another matter

Humans were not built for the cold, other wise, they would have fur and leathery paws

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#21

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 2:50 PM

How about a wire brush, set at an angle, and towed by the normal fitting?

A lot of 4WD vehicles have a tow ball, and the angled revolving brush would
sweep the snow to the edge of the road.

Admittedly it would be after the vehicle has passed over the snow, but..
no special fittings or brackets would be needed; it would be well within the
capability of most vehicles; and the procession of similarly equipped transport
would rapidly clear the roadway, and more so, keep it clear.

The "wire brush" rollers would be supplied by the council, have an easy lift-up
and down lever, so as to make contact with the road surface, and the driver
induced by a mileage payment to use it immediately a snowfall starts.

Why would it work? The councils spend a large part of their budget on grit/salt,
also transport drivers, etc. working unsocial hours. (overtime payments) and this
could be a far more cost effective way of initially, at least, coping with the problem.

In fact I might start making these. (sounds pretty easy to do.) Anyone like
to licence the idea? I work best when I have my feet up and my eyes closed.
(that's my story and I'm sticking to it, the snoring noises are just thought echoes)

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#26

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 6:29 PM

No offense but guys in Canary Islands telling us how to deal with snow is like the four blind guys describing the elephant. The Inuit have what 40 different words for snow? It comes in many forms and no method is effective against all of them.

I have never driven a snow plow but I have a feeling it is going to affect the steering and handeling of the vehicle, yes even a small amount. If you have ever seen "average" drivers trying to cope with just a bit of the stuff you would be sure you don't want them driving plows.

Save me a beach chair and you can teach me to build sand castles when I get there. Come visit us up here and I'll teach you about snow.

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#27
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Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 7:05 PM

Done

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#28

Re: Problems with Snow

11/30/2010 7:36 PM

Well, I live in the North and we have a lot of snow in the winter. Not unusual to get 12" to 20" overnight, for a couple of days at a time. I have a snowplow on my truck and I use it professionally to clear driveways, mine included. It beats the truck pretty hard and the maintenance is something that gets added to the price of the service I provide. The other thing that you need to realize is that any additional device that creates drag will also require more traction...that requires different tires and or additional weight over the drive wheels. There's another issue with adding devices to the front of most modern vehicles...air bags would need to be disabled!

The local towns are responsible for clearing the roads and have done well in that task for many years. So the Government employees are already out there doing their thing. I guess I don't see much success in trying to convince everyone that they should all be responsible for clearing the roads at their expense when they have already paid for the service with their taxes.

Bring on the snow - need money for the Holidays!

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#29

Re: Problems with Snow

12/01/2010 10:19 PM

I can see it now. 300 car pile up on I-80. I am guessing you have never seen the snow fall in Buffalo N.Y. and what insurance company is going to pay out for the damage to your car. ever think what it is like to hit a sewer lid that sticks up a 1/4 inch. it will put you in to the windshield. Plus how the heck are we supposed to get a day off from work. I can see the countryside now littered with cheap yellow plastic with a worn black rubber strip on it.then my taxes have to pay to clean them up and dispose of them,and by now they are toxic from friction,so it will cost even more to get rid of.the only people that it would work out for is the Chinese. I do not want to sound like a jerk,but it wouldn't work. maybe in a small driveway it would. also remember you can only push snow so far with a light car. you cant leave a pile in the center of the road. also keep in mind 1 =depth of snow doesn't necessarily weigh the same amount. it could be double.

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#30

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 7:14 AM

Forums are a wonderful way to understand human behaviuor. In fact, nobody reads the real text, but what they think the text should say.

I have been many times in Buffalo snowstorms.

The Canarian Plow is just a piece of steel wire, just like a chothes hanger, bolted through a bearing to each front wheel's rim, The wire bends to the right covering about 2 ft of road surface and it is strongly slanted to the right so as to throw the snow at great velocity. Not to accumulate it. The wire touching gently the floor has a thin wire brush.

If you hit any obstacle, the wire will bend and recover after passing over.

If the obstacle is large enough, the wire would break, and left behind ( No harm to following cars) or twisted by the wheel. May be it could scratch the car's paint

These are only small nuissances.

Remember. This plow is never intended to really plow any thick snow, but to sweep very small quantities of snow dust or snow flakes, accumulated on the road between car passes, that are supposed to be frequent.

So any criticism based on what you know ot existing snow plows is irrelevant. In this case, it is just a diferent game.

Chorete

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 3:20 PM

Oh definitely not, as A City engineer, we definitely would not, nor would State DOTs allow a steel wire brush to be dragged on the surfaces of every road in the area. Do you know how rapidly a steel wire brush applied to asphalt would degrade the driving surface. LOL.

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#42
In reply to #30

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 9:34 PM

so it is not actually a plow

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#34

Re: Problems with Snow

12/02/2010 4:19 PM

OK Make it a horse hair brush. The wear would be acceptable.

In reality I du not know why I wrote Steel wire brush, there is no need for it

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#44

Re: Problems with Snow

12/03/2010 1:24 PM

I think two good points need to be brought up here.

1) This plow/brush/wire would only work for light fluffy snow... the type of snow that no one cares about (at least in the areas I have lived). Drivers don't slow down considerably and plows are left in the garage. Again, only during the heavy winds and heavy snow fall does this type ever present a problem.

2) The idea of collective plowing seems to be an avenue worth exploring. Take in all the comments, do a bit of research, change the design up a bit, and you might be onto something!

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#45

Re: Problems with Snow

12/03/2010 7:36 PM

I still don't understand how you would manage to clear the entire road. What happens under the car, and how to do get the cars to line up such that you get all the snow off the roadway and onto the side of the road? What happens to the sections of road left when cars turn off onto other roads with less traffic? The brush would only be able to be used on the passenger side of the vehicle as you can't have snow flying into the path of oncoming traffic.

Even with a light snow, most drivers know enough to stay home when it's snowing!

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#46

Re: Problems with Snow

12/03/2010 10:29 PM

OK we stay home drink beer and pee on it. problem solved,and a lot more fun.

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#47

Re: Problems with Snow

12/04/2010 10:58 AM

This subject should be treated scentifically. Drop th gut feelings, please!,

I cannot describe my friend's snow brush, but I assure you that it is easily fixed to the front wheel's rims, there is no steering interference, the angle of rejection is about 45º to one side, and it sweeps 20% more than the car's width.

It has IMHO two problems only.

1º- First somebody has to test how a snow accumulation of only a few minutes can be swept. The quantities are so minuscule, that it is hard to predict what will happen. Will the snowdust make a big cloud or will it be thrown adequately to one side?.

2º. The major problem will be how to get most of people to use this gadget, so as a minimum of close to one car per minute is maintained at all hours of the day and all weather conditions.

There are many ways to achieve it, but it needs to be figured out. (Not disfigured out, as some tend to do)

Chorete

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#48

Re: Problems with Snow

12/04/2010 2:00 PM

As someone who has lived his whole life where it snows about 7 - 8 months out of the year I can assure you this was all around a funny read!

Trust me when I say sweeping only works on sidewalks and small driveways. Highway and public road level snow moving is a whole different game.

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#49

Re: Problems with Snow

12/04/2010 2:34 PM

Then there's the problem of the fact that the snow will get packed down into ice long before anyone gets to the place where the "brush" is stored or can be installed. Yes living in snow country is very different from living where it's sunny and you can think up ideas that we can tell you will not work!

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#50

Re: Problems with Snow

12/08/2010 10:27 PM

Just wanted to throw a new perspective on snow and what a bit more than the Canaries are used to seeing.

Click here and be glad you don't live in Siberia.

Hey on second thought maybe the Russians would want to open a snow plowing school.

Yikes!

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Problems with Snow

12/08/2010 10:59 PM

Got a name and password for that?

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: Problems with Snow

12/09/2010 9:33 AM

Sorry about that. It worked when I checked it out but I was copying an email. This Might work better. Russian snow pictures, 2006 I think.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Problems with Snow

12/09/2010 12:46 PM

Beautiful - thanks. Love the 'ice hand'.

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