Moisture Content in Gasohol

There was a thread a few months back about removing water from alcohol and fuel mixtures.

One method involved using "plaster of paris" to absorb the water and chemically bind it into structure.

Take a sample, measure fluid volume (or mass) before and after and you would have indication of the water content.

A few other questions for you.

Do you fill the tank each time you visit? (Partial fill could leave atmospheric water vapour to condense in your tank.)

Have the service stations had the pumps renewed recently? Properly calibrated pumps might mean that you are now getting less fuel than before.

9% sounds like a huge difference. Are you seeing rough idle, water vapour/condensation in exhaust, black pipe, sluggish acceleration, bad starting. If the fuel was that bad, you'd notice it inperformance while driving, almost like towing a trailer.

Also, have the kids been borrowing the car? Different driving (and parking with engine running) can significantly affect fuel economy. (Could also be anyone else that didn't drive the car before this apparent loss in performance.)

When was the last service? All the computers in the world cannot fix fouled plugs and gummed up valves.

Good luck in your search.

I was always under the impression that gasahol was made from ethyl alcohol that was already saturated with water...not a bad thing at all. The moisture in the alcohol will combine with Carbon Monoxide to form a flammable mixture and stretch the combustion time...essentially raising the octane rating "free of charge".

Gas line antifreeze is pretty much pure methyl alcohol, and it will melt ice particles, and dissolve and take up moisture which condenses into the gas tank. Add enough and you get "gasahol". But pure methyl hydrate is much more expensive than the cheap ethyl alcohol they use to stretch the fossil fuel, but then, it is expected to do a different job.

Are you getting what you pay for? Hmmmm. Good question. I would add a couple of ounces of methyl hydrate to see if that fixes the problem. If so, then you have too much water in the fuel.

The paste you used to have is probably gasoila it is still available through MSC, Grainger etc.or direct from www.gasoila.com . It is a good easy test to do before anything more complicated is done.

The thread has taken off on water being in the fuel. It certainly is a possibility in our cynical world. I'm an engine guy. There are a number of things to consider besides the air filter and tire pressure here. I don't know your level of ability but I'm thinking engine management/emission system. Any info on car type, miles, service record...like oxygen sensor age? Last time the car was subjected to an emissions test (if they do that in your area).

An emissions test will tell you exactly how much water is in your exhaust, if you have water entrained in your fuel dissolved in the ethanol the emissions test will tell you. It will also tell you if your oxygen sensor is bad.

First thing I do when I notice a problem is to visit my local autoparts store and ask them to run the codes on my computer, then I start looking for the problem.

Wondering where you are located. If you are in a cold climate, the fuel economy change might be normal. Your fluids (engine oil, transmission fluid, p/s fluid, differential lube, grease in wheel bearings, etc) are starting out much colder, the engine stays in warm-up enrichment mode longer, and tires are colder all the time. All of these will negatively affect mileage, especially if most trips are short as full warm-up may not occur. Also, driving through snow and ice will hurt mileage.

Part of your problem is that a molecule of alcohol does not contain as much energy as a molecule of gasoline. If you browse around on Google you can find tables that show that the typical drop in range when using E85 for fuel instead of gasoline is 20-30%.

If your fuel mix is 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol, then you should expect to experience a 20-30% loss only on the ethanol portion of the mix, so your max range should be about 97-98% of what you used to get when you could buy regular unleaded. To loose 9% of your mileage simply by changing to a 10% ethanol mix would mean that the ethanol that your station uses contains 90% less energy than gasoline - that seems unlikely.

It is more likely that there is something else wrong with your car. I suggest that you take your car to a mechanic and have them check your computer for fault messages. A dirty MAF, blocked PCV, or a bad O2 sensor could cause a drop in your vehicle's fuel efficiency.

BTW: 200 proof (100%) ethanol is a vapor under normal atmospheric pressure, so a standard fuel pump could not contain it. The purest alcohol that you can purchase in liquid form is 190-195 proof (95-97% pure ethanol) which you can drink - if you're man enough . E85 has toxic additives in to it to make it non-consumable - try to imagine why .

I don't know the answer, but you raise a good point. There is water in there.

Has anybody else noticed water dripping out of tail pipes while stopped at a red light?

I don't remember ever seeing that before ethanol was introduced.

This is interesting. http://diagnosticnews.com/tech/what-you-need-to-know-about-ethanol/

Maybe I just never noticed it before. Did it always run out of the tail pipe, or was it just water vapor back before ethanol? I would think that since water will mix with alcohol, it would not be as noticeable in the gasoline and more pronounced at the tail pipe.

Sometimes the water is dripping to the point that it puddles under the tail pipe, like I said, maybe I just never noticed it. Seems like I started seeing it more within the last decade.

What you are seeing is the drippings of water re-condensing in a cool tailpipe. You will see this less after the entire exhaust has warmed enough. This is also why vehicles that are only run for short trips will rust out exhausts fast.

Right, but I think there is far more water since the introduction of ethanol. I'll see people pull off from red lights, and water will pour out of the tail pipe. I don't recall this always being the case. And like I said, I might be wrong and never noticed.

They certainly could get away with a certain percentage of water in the ethanol, whereas, water in gasoline would settle. Particularly since the new cars are constantly readjusting the engine settings. The only indication of excess water would be in fuel consumption.

The link above indicates that ethanol will hold a certain degree of water before phase separation. Since water doesn't burn, I think it would most likely show up at the tail pipe. 3-4% doesn't sound like a lot, but it would add up.

Anyway, back to the OP. The separation process using the castor oil looks like it could be done at home. This should tell you how much water in a given sample of gasohol. I may try it myself. Then I will know whether or not I'm imagining a lot of water at the tail pipe that I hadn't noticed before.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html

As KFry stated H₂O is a byproduct of burning hydrocarbons.

You get CO₂, CO (carbon monoxide) and H₂0 as the primary byproducts (if i recall them all). If you have water dissolved in alcohol it will turn to steam sucking up thermal energy in the conversion reducing the bang for your buck in the power stroke, some of which is replaced with the expansion of the steam but there is a net loss in power.

If he was adding water to ethanol fuels then it would separate from the gasoline and you would have a gas with an octane rating in the low 80's to high 70's and would definitely cause a drastic drop in mileage and performance. Ethanol will draw water from the atmosphere at a rate of 1 gallon of water to 500 gallons of ethanol. The distributors do not mix the ethanol into the gasoline until it is loaded on the delivery truck as it will separate from the gas within 2 to 3 weeks on its own accord so it can not be stored premixed for any length of time. If you wish to see this in real time then take a sample of fuel that contains ethanol from your 4 cycle lawnmower or weed-eater that has gas left in it during the winter. Just empty it into a glass jar and let it sit for a few minutes and you will definitely see the separation that has taken place with no outside influence.

I remember misting devices being sold to increase horsepower a while back. WWII airplanes had water injection to increase power, but they were high compression engines, I believe. I think compression plays a big part in whether water injection works well or not.

Water vapor injection has been used successfully for years as what it does is by injecting a fine mist into th intake air flow when it hits the cylinder it flashes to steam therefore increasing the compression and therefore an increase in power.

I don't think it is weather, while it does get cold, 75 lst night, (had to turn off the fans), I will definitely take it in for an emissions test. (I live on the east coast of Puerto Rico about 450 ft up) the car is a 99 2WD Cherokee 4 liter auto with 140,000. I bought it last fall. I was surprised at how bad the mileage was when I bought it, but it has gotten worse.

They do some sort of emissions test. It is usually $35.00 and many times your are told there will be a $40.00 surcharge and to leave the car. Lights, broken windows, brakes, no problem. The roads are pretty bad so I rarely drive over 60, though many kids do with there "tricked out" whatevers.

I will also try some of these tests for water, and will let you know.

The reason I suspected the water, I used to be involved with boats (150 ft and up) on a neighboring island. There was so much water in the diesel they stopped fueling on the island and went directly to the refinery.