Previous in Forum: Question Of Construction Level   Next in Forum: Pile Hammer, How Does it Work?
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Construction Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BH, Vietnam
Posts: 435
Good Answers: 1

Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 11:32 AM

Thank you for many of your replies so far. I have been here since 2009 and I have a feel that the more I join CR4 the more my mind will expand. Thank you again for that.

My question is why sometimes people (because I don't know if people usually do that) make a trench with a slopes, the wide slopes to lay the pipe? What happen if we try to use vertical wall or narrow trench?

I think that it would take more time to dig a trench then make a slope or is there something that I cannot see?

__________________
Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
4
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1294
Good Answers: 35
#1

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 12:35 PM

The biggest reason is safety.

A vertical wall / narrow trench can collapse under a variety of circumstances. If someone is in the trench they can be seriously injured.

In the US, OSHA prohibits the use of narrow trenches / vertical walls unless additional safety precautions are utilized. Some contractors use a steel--hmm, what to call it--a safety device consisting of two pieces of heavy steel plate and spacers of sufficient size and strength to withstand the crushing forces that can develop.

They insert this in the trench as protection for any workers in the trench, and move it along as the work requires.

Without using a device like this, the walls of the trenches are required to be maintained at certain angles, depending on the material of the trench. It is probably the same as the angle of repose for that material. (The angle at which loose material of that type will form a pile.)

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Construction Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BH, Vietnam
Posts: 435
Good Answers: 1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 12:47 PM

If it is for safety, it will say the slopes shall be required at a certain depth. Since I see "most" of electrical trench excavation are done without slopes.

__________________
Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Electrical Construction

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mid Western USA - The Corn Belt
Posts: 1439
Good Answers: 58
#9
In reply to #1

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/31/2011 9:15 AM

Good Morning RHK,

In my local, we call them "Drag Boxes".

__________________
The first 5 days after a weekend are always the hardest................................
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1294
Good Answers: 35
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/31/2011 11:05 AM

Good morning, and thanks!

Old Coal Man calls them "trench boxes" which is another good name. (I guess I never heard a name for them, just saw them in use--although I probably read the OSHA regs--I wonder if they used a name there? Oh, well, no big deal (meaning I won't go and try to find / read the regs). ;-)

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Analog and Digital Circuit Design Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Transformers, Motors & Drives, EM Launchers Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Applied Electrical, Optical, and Mechanical

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 1207
Good Answers: 119
#10
In reply to #1

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/31/2011 10:25 AM

"steel--hmm, what to call it"

I would have called them caissons, but those portable retaining walls don't really fit that definition.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2181
Good Answers: 255
#3

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 5:48 PM

In addition to the safety aspect, the width at the bottom of the trench allows the correect amount of "bedding" material to be installed around the pipe to prolong the service life. Sloped sides in this situation also help to direct the material to the bottom around the pipe.

Electrical instalations usually install a conduit with the wires loose inside this. Thus the conduit is providing the mechanical protection for the wires.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancleave, Ms about 30 miles inland from Biloxi and the coast
Posts: 3197
Good Answers: 106
#4

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 6:18 PM

A trench with sloping walls that is say 36" wide at the top requires less material to be removed if the same trench had straight parallel walls. The trench needs to be wide enough for a man to work in.

__________________
Mr.Ron from South Ms.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Saint Helens, Oregon
Posts: 2216
Good Answers: 70
#5

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 7:41 PM

I worked on a project where we installed stop lights at existing street intersections using the narrow vertical walls method to lay our 3" electrical conduit, The trench was 6" wide and 36" deep, this was done to minimize the amount of road bed we had to tear up. It was not a fun job, no room to use wrenches, only a rope for tightening the pipe, ambient temp. was 90°(+) asphalt temp.130°(+) and that's not including the temperature of the pipe, which was laying in the sun! Which required a lot of sweat, and water with a dash of gymnastics to avoid the people who were trying to run us over.

It would have been nice to have nice wide open trenches with the required shoring and maybe a sun shade on top of it all.

__________________
Confucius once said, “ Ability will never catch up with the demand for it".
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#6

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/30/2011 9:24 PM

I forget how deep a "Ditch Witch" can dig, but it produces a narrow straight-walled trench. The trench is too small for anyone to work in it, but one could accidentally step into it. For shallow trenches, this works well, but in cases where the trench must reach below a frost line (perhaps irrelevant in VietNam), sloped walls may be required. This probably depends on soil stability.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 97
Good Answers: 3
#7

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/31/2011 6:55 AM

You did not mention process of joining pipe in the trench. It might be a water pipeline of cast iron which is being joined with jute and lead wool, it might be cement pipe joined with rubber ring abutting end compressed each other or it may be of a cement pipe joined with collar and cement. All these pipeline require 95% of compaction in the bottom of the trench. When pipeline is laid as described above, compaction under the pipe is not possible, only when trench is cut in slope. When compactor is run layer by layer, it shift earth/sand under the pipe and get compacted. For water supply pipeline trench bottom gradient is not made in slope, it is alway levelled to have the water drawing at equal pressure and flow to all consumer. Oil and gas pipeline does not require such design of trench, only where bedding or compaction on backfil is to be provided.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Construction Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Mining Engineering - Member United States - Member - Member Popular Science - Weaponology - Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - Member Hobbies - Car Customizing - Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cary, NC, USA
Posts: 131
Good Answers: 7
#8

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/31/2011 8:13 AM

You can use vertical walls on a trench as long as it isn't deeper than say 3 or 4 feet deep (I can't find the OSHA manual). However, it also has to do with the soil you are excavating. A good loamy-clay will stand up much better than a straight sand. It also depends on the depth. Have you thought about using a trench-box. Many times, sewer mains are extremely deep, and contractors use trench boxes to support the walls as they work in the trench. You don;t give enough information with your question. Have you looked at any ground control books? What type of soil are you dealing with?

__________________
You cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today - Abraham Lincoln
Register to Reply
3
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stronger Than The Storm
Posts: 2394
Good Answers: 203
#12

Re: Installation of Water Pipe

05/31/2011 11:19 PM

Unfortunately I can't comment on the requirements for other than the USA but our standards are usually pretty well thought out and most often put worker safety as the #1 priority.

The device which is used in a trench to prevent the sides from collapsing on the workers is most often termed a "trench box". It is usually a shield on each side of the trench with horizontal columns or braces separating the two plates and providing structural strength. Work is done between the plates. Work is limited to 2 feet below the bottom edge of the plates and above. Excavation can not extend more than 2 feet below the bottom edge of the side plates. No one is permitted within the excavation when these are removed for repair or to be increased in size.

There is an OSHA standard, determined by the type of soil being encountered, which states what the maximum angle of the side slope can be for an unprotected trench excavation. Basically, the softer the soil the greater the angle of the sides must be from vertical, i.e. sandy wet soil would require more of a slope than compacted dry clay.

If a machine is used which makes a narrow trench, such as a "ditch witch", it is customary to fabricate the piping above the trench (by either putting bracing or cribbing across the trench) or to fabricate on the surface beside the trench. The piping is then lowered into the trench in its final configuration. If this is not completely feasible, wider areas are dug where more room is needed to accommodate tools or personnel (with the correct safety precautions).

Small arm/chain "ditch witches" are usually capable of 2ft, 4ft, or 6 ft deep trenches. Larger rotary wheel/cutter types are limited only by your imagination and wallet.

Compromising on worker safety for the sake of getting a project done faster or cheaper eventually is a no win situation. It is much cheaper to do the job safely with considerations for personnel than it is to conduct a rescue or a body recovery.

Check the USA trenching standards at OSHA.gov to do the job right.

Good Luck, Old Salt

__________________
Any day on the green side of the grass is a GREAT DAY!, --- me +++++++++. I believe creativity is an inherent part of everyone. --- Kermit T. Frog
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Register to Reply 12 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

dj95401 (1); hien.nguyenquoc (1); Just an Engineer (1); KJK/USA (1); mjb1962853 (1); Old Coal Man (1); old salt (1); rhkramer (2); ronseto (1); Tornado (1); user-deleted-1100 (1)

Previous in Forum: Question Of Construction Level   Next in Forum: Pile Hammer, How Does it Work?

Advertisement