Making Gas Turbine Engine out of a Turbo Charger

Continuous injection, depends on the turbo model, depends on the turbo model.

I don't think you grasp the concept of turbo chargers, or gas turbine engines.

How do you propose to harness the power of this air compressor?

Strange so many people have to ask how to harness power from a rotating device .

Well , since you asked, the answer : you attach a generator to the shaft.

What shaft? There's a turbo wheel on both ends of the shaft. Do you propose to weld a generator drive to the driven turbo wheel?

Do you actually know what a turbocharger looks like?

Where will you attach the generator to the shaft?

Sorry, you don't get it! The inefficiencies will be huge.

Yes, the generator co-axis with turbine shaft at the inlet. . FYI, people have already done it !!

Well,

Since we are all ignorant of this, why don't you contact those who have already done it.

Good luck.

No doubt some of these (both this and next post) work, but I didn't see any efficiency figures. Please elaborate.

Hi biggiginthesky,

Thx for the lead !

Thanks. Aside from making noise, can it actually do anything?

lyn, there are a couple ways of skinning that cat (sorry Del..). one way would be to use a second turbo coupled to the outlet of the first turbo hot section, remove the fourth turbine wheel and replace it with some kind of mechanical coupling to whatever you want to drive, be it a generator or something else. or if you have the means, it you can fashion a screw-on shaft coupling to take the place of the nut that holds the removable turbine wheel on, you can direct drive the load, but then the load is in the direct path of the hot exhaust. Not ideal. it also loads down the turbine shaft, under load you could cause the turbine to stop turning, whereas the exhaust coupling allows the turbine to keep turning, but with backpressure. it also redirects the exhaust at right angles to the drive axis. I've seen a number of variations on these themes over the years. or if it is simple thrust you want, nothing more needs to be done.

Sometimes we forget that people build these sorts of things, not to actually do something useful, but to just play with, and if it keeps them out of the bars, what's the harm?

Damn man, I say damn.... So I suppose your feelings are hurt then huh? You should just pick up your marbles and go home, no one likes a sour puss.

Ive known a few people with attitudes like yours in my field of work, its always a real pain to go through all the paper work when they find there self looking for a job. Where does all that BS really get you anyway?

Dear Sir, As you may have noticed I was not against this project but only wanted to insist on the problems related to the "making" of it.

What I TOTALLY disagree is your attitude which is at least non compatible with the mentality of CR4. I am very well placed to write this since I was several times aggressed for what I wrote. The aggression was mean but never had the connotations you give to yours.

I will be polite, what you are not. If you do not like to be aggressed, if you feel that your gifts are not well recognised by the other participants, it would be better ,as one said, you take your toys and play on an other playground with other children.

In this respect may I mention that I criticized the negative attitude which many times came from the feeling to know more than in fact the person making the critics really knew.

Now as answer to some of the remarks: it is possible to make an other shaft which accepts a coupling to a generator or to a DC machine which could work either as generator or as motor for the starting phase. It would be a non necessary complication to use a compressor or air filled bottles for start. What was written is CORRECT there are many micro-systems using same technology as for the turbocharger. It is true that in high efficiency turbines -as for electric plants- the turbine is axial with several stages and a high efficiency is the main goal, same being valid for the compressor which is multi-stage as well for a higher efficiency but in small systems where efficiency is not the main goal since it will never be possible to obtain a high value in small systems for many termodynamical and mechanical reasons the single stage is used and with good results. Turbines down to 2" and less with matched compressors have been made and the systems work.

As I wrote I noticed a trend to reject without looking further and broader based on a limited knowledge but all of this does not justify your rude and unacceptable writings. Try to find an other playground where such people as you are enjoyed, it is not the case on CR4.

I end with one of my favourite thoughts I mentioned already several times :

"the "the more you know the more you know that you know nothing".

I shall add a complement:

"only those who know little believe to know all"

Nick Name.

Very well put, and excellent command of the English language for someone who barely deserved it.

I am curious, in what practical applications are these mini turbines as small as 2" used?

Tim

1- Thank you for your comment concerning my English since it is neither my mother nor my father language but al earned one (among others) it is very pleasant to have it.

2- Such small units are mainly used for airborne models in miniature reactors. But they can be used as well as small generators for locations where no other solution is available for small powers as for instance a radio transmitter. Their small weight allows an easy transportation on a track.

Just because the words gas turbine and a turbo charger both have the same Latin root of "turbinis" doesn't mean that either machine can be easily made into the other. There are similarities to how both machines function but they do completely different jobs.

you are not quite right here.

Afraid to say that you are totally wrong sir!

Both machines are essentially one and the same.

Sir Whittle's engine it's a good example of how the two of them combine.

Please go here. Very educating.

http://www.pfranc.com/projects/turbine/top.htm

Cheers,

I am with the others... I was going to ask if you are thinking of a supercharger...

but I can't think of how that would work either.

Can you tell us; do you have a turbo off of something and you need a small engine? What do you need this engine to do?

It is continously fed with fuel. Yo need some metering to do so as to have the correct air/fuel ratio. A venturi is a solution. There are many designs, why reinvent the wheel?

Great. Why don't tell the OP where to find those designs.

It is called a micro turbine engine. Micro , simplicity is the keyword here.

I seem to recall that utilising a turbo of a large truck diesel as a jet engine, was a recurring theme on the TV shows "scrapyard challenge"/"junkyard wars". I also have somewhere a link to a guy that powered his gokart in this manner, not really efficient but way cool and seriously noisy..

Basically you are creating a jet motor with the turbo as the prime element. Yes you need to continuously feed fuel and ignite it(no biggy). You also need to keep away from all the hot bits, especially the exhaust.

Have a look at this link

http://www.junkyardjet.com/

It'll give you all the necessary knowledge to to make what you want.

Necessary disclaimer: I do not endorse the proffered website and certainly take no responsibility for any or all actions or misadventures that may occur as a result of anybody attempting to engage in activities discussed on that website or on this forum with respect to this discussion. Even if it's seriously cool

No, nein, nyet,...etc. The turbo you mentioned is designed to work off a pressurized exhaust and again a pressurized inlet. It is optimized for this. And as a minor problem, it has no power takeoff shaft anywhere.

On the other hand, surplus turbines are available with power takeoff shafts. They come in two flavors: shaft for a propeller and shaft for a helicopter blade. They become surplus, because after some 3 or 5 thousand operating hours they have to be switched out against new or refurbished in airplanes. Since they are still perfectly good, companies build emergency generators with them. Also, some kit airplanes are powered by some refurbished, derated ones. They run like a swiss watch!

Your inquiries along those lines might be fruitful.

a

this is possible, however, the power you will get is not worth it with respect to the fuel requirement considering the profile of the turbo charger with a single stage wheel. Gas turbines operates at very high pressure and temperature with a multi-stage air compressor and multi-stage turbine yet it is one of lowest thermal efficiency. How much more for the turbo charger.

To improve efficiency, one can add an axial turbine stage at the exhaust. My idea is to use a turbine and stator from auto torque converter, mill it down to suitable diameter, and put in a housing. Any comments?

Yep. Let the forum know when and where the first test is going to happen so that readers can stand well back....

Most start by using an electric leaf blower or compressed air to spin up the turbine and get some airflow going, then you light off the burner and away you go. Some use an electric motor or vane type air motor with a rubber cup on the shaft to spin it up (particularly the really small ones).

As far as efficiency goes, no, they are not terribly efficient compared to a modern axial flow turbojet engine. But they are still a pretty cool use of a piece of scrap from a junkyard. If you can get the scrap turbo cheap enough, who gives a damn how efficient they are?

Making Gas Turbine Engine

First of all either you should call it a turbine or an engine. Not a "Gas Turbine Engine". Why you need an external burner to a turbo charger to call it a turbine? Without adding external burner also you can call it a gas turbine. What a turbine does- converts pressure and heat energy of inlet gas to mechanical energy. Same thing a turbo charger also do. Whether hot gas with higher pressure is entering radially (as in case of turbo charger) or axially we can call it a turbine. I have seen many radial inlet turbines too.

The main issue of OP is, it seems utilization of mechanical energy produced by turbo charger (instead of pressurising and heating inlet air to truck engine you want to generate power). For this impeller for compressing inlet air is to be disbanded and a coupling is to be fixed to connect a generator.

How much power one can get out a typical truck diesel turbo?

There are several variables for it. It depend on quantity, pressure, temperature and constituents of exhaust gas mixture and its outlet conditions besides efficiency of turbo charger (now you can call it turbine because charging function is removed ones not used for compressing inlet air).

An interesting thread.

You can look at it in another way. The turbocharger is actually a gas turbine and functions like so. But instead of a simple combustion chamber, it has a combustor-cum-engine, from where you also get work out. Another form of combined cycle thing (small gas turbine big piston engine combo).

You are creating heat (energy) to turn the impeller if a turbo. You have not built a turbine engine buy any definition.

You can find many more videos of these cool little noise makers on You-Tube as well. Once I have my new shop set up, I think this would be an interesting little toy to make with my son, but to think you could make this to be some sort of a practical engine is far fetched.

Please use caution as this type of toy will explode and or fly apart, especially if you want to see exactly how fast you can make the turbocharger spin before self destruction.

Tim

#17

Tim, you must not have seen this, from the peanut gallery.

Apparently they don't know that a turbocharger can never be magically transformed into a turbine engine.

Take it for what it is, a project/experiment/toy

If all of the time and energy spent trying to make an apple an orange was better spent actually building a scaled down Gas Turbine Engine there may be something really interesting.

How about a Turbine powered riding lawn mower, Ohhhhhh I like the though of cutting my grass at 60mph and incinerating the clippings at the same time

it shows that you know little about the subject.

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some links for everyone to peruse:

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-your-own-Jet-Engine/

http://www.junkyardjet.com/

http://www.salvatoreaiello.com/main.shtml

http://www.gas-turbines.com/nt5/index.html

I was reading about model airplanes, of the flying persuasion. Initial work on creating scale model jet engines was done with modified automobile turbochargers.

Almost anything can be done, with enough effort or money.

The original poster may be able to satisfy his goals with an effort or expense he is comfortable with.

I have not seen a convincing argument that it couldn't be done.

As I understand it, a turbocharger is a rotary air compressor designed to be driven by the exhaust gasses of an internal combustion engine. It works because the output gasses from the engine are a larger volume than the input gasses due to the introduction, and burning of fuel. All the air that flows through the engine goes through the turbocharger twice. Once before combustion, once after.

To make it run, why not use the output of the air compressor to feed a combustion chamber, possibly through a venturi, and use the exhaust to drive the turbine and compressor. To extract power from this unit you will need to attach some kind of shaft to the turbocharger shaft. The input/cold side of the compressor will probably be easier. To get it started, you will have to spin up the shaft, either using some kind of air flow through the unit, or mechanically spin the shaft. You could use a leaf blower to blow air into the input of the compressor, or connect a shop vacuum to the output of the unit. If you use a vacuum to get the turbine spinning, disconnect it just before starting the fuel/combustion process.

The safe RPM rating should be listed by the manufacturer of the unit.

Sorry, I don't know the amount of power you can harvest.

I aplaud your exploration of new fields of study, that is an excelent way to keep your mind sharp.

Makes me wish I had a spare turbocharger laying arround.

bravo88

In my comment at #27 I presumed that turbo charger is fitted at truck engine exhaust and you want to use the power produced by it instead of charging pressurised air to combustion chamber. You also made no any comment. But after again carefully going through your original post, it appears that you want to take out turbo charger unit from truck and make a gas turbine. Please confirm. So with new assumption my reply shall be as follows:

By adding an external burner to a turbo charger, you can make a gas turbine engine

Yes, theoretically you can make, but you have to remove compressor part and connect a crank to drive engine. If you connect to electric generator, it can be called 'turbo generator'. Otherwise do not remove the compressor part and use it as blower, the whole unit can be called 'turbo blower'.

do you need to time firing in the burner or is it continuous burning by continuous injection of fuel ?

No need of time firing in the burner as it is turbine, not a reciprocating engine. Hence continuous burning by continuous injection of fuel is required.

What is safe running RPM ?

Safe running RPM is same as that of original turbo charger if the engine you are going to connect is designed for the same RPM, otherwise lesser among the two.

How much power one can get out a typical truck diesel turbo?

See truck turbo charger manual or data sheet, how much torque it is generating.

Yes, the whole turbo is by itself and made into a gas turbine engine that drive a electrical generator.

Thx for your comment.

So, as I said at my comment #27, you should not call it gas turbine engine. It can be called 'gas turbine generator' or simply 'turbo generator' as I suggested at #50. And once it is electric generator, you should not ask for safe running RPM because it will be decided by generator, either 1500/1800 or 3000/3600 RPM.

The delicious part of the cake is the cake itself, not the spoon with which you eat.

mmmmmmmm, cake!

If already you have made it then why don't you share with us the details instead of asking. Please tell the following:

1. You are using time firing in the burner or it is continuous burning by continuous injection of fuel?

2. What is the RPM ?

3. How much power you are getting?

Thanks in advance.

Pritnam, if you had followed any of the links I and others had posted you'd understand that what he is building is a Whittle type radial turbine engine, using the turbine wheels and housing of a conventional turbocharger. Others have already done this. Now whether he actually plans to do work with it or whether this is merely a toy I cannot say. the efficiency will be low, compared to a conventional axial flow turbojet engine, but I suspect this is not a priority.

Thx to all CR4 friends here, now I know , the burner does continuous firing. RPM depend on turbo bearing, power is ?

Yes.

Corrupting.

too funny

Here is your ideal solution -for a good purpose but not the most economical

http://asciimation.co.nz/beer/

mmmmmmmmmm, beer!