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US Supreme Court Curtails Suits Over Co2 Emission

06/25/2011 5:32 PM

Connecticut and some other states sued American Electric Power Co. and other large power producers seeking to stop their CO2 emissions. The Supreme Court rejected the attempt to create or enforce a federal common law of nuisance to control CO2: "We hold that the Clean Air Act and the EPA actions it authorizes displace any federal common law right to seek abatement of carbon-dioxide emissions from fossil-fuel fired power plants." Here is a link to the Supreme Court opinion.

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#1

Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/25/2011 8:02 PM

The Supreme Court is wise and fair. You can't order conventional power stations to stop CO2 emission, stopping CO2 emission mean stopping operation, unless someone has come up with viable CO2 capture solution.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/25/2011 8:35 PM

"The Supreme Court is wise and fair."

You live in Singapore, where they still cane people. What do you know about the supreme court of the USA?

For your information, the "Supreme Court" has become a group of lackeys beholden to the ultra Conservative likes of Dick Cheney and the Bushes. There's nothing "supreme" about it any more. It is now just an extension of the conservative Republican party.

Oh no. Politics.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/25/2011 9:12 PM

I rather the drug pushers, robbers get caned (more if necessary) than me or my family being victims, simple as that ! I am curious to know what you think on this point!

Ok, I certainly do not know about your Supreme Court, my comment is strictly on basis of technical consideration. I certainly would be very keen to learn what will be the scenario, had the Supreme court rule the other way.

Is it that the power company already has a viable CO2 capture solution which they hide away ?

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#16
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/27/2011 2:17 PM

Score 1 for lyn

Oh and for your future information the Supreme court has always been a group of "lackeys" (which by the way the Lackey Council on domestic lackeyness, is not amused.) Did you mention "party"?

Sundog

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#4

Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/25/2011 11:34 PM

The ruling was a good ruling that is being misunderstood. What the ruling means is that the states can't just create their own emissions standards, they must respect the EPA. This will be important when the EPA soon makes Carbon Dioxide a regulated emission:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/13/usa-epa-emissions-idUSN1314060920110613

It will be interesting to see the same people who are cheering this decision sputtering in rage in a few years when they realize it essentially prevents individual states from opting out of the EPA's new upcoming co2 emission policies.

To all my fellow environmentalists who are criticizing our carbon current policies (I'm looking at you Al Gore). Do you want to slow Global Warming or win a debate? This EPA action is a backdoor, nonpolitical approach to moderating carbon dioxide far more effectively than anything that has been debated openly. Plus nobody has to admit they were wrong or vote for it (or against it). Republicans can pretend not to notice. Democrats can complain that nothing is being done and meanwhile CO2 emissions get cut. It's the difference between looking like you're winning a battle and actually winning a battle. Smarten up my environmental activist compatriots, the government is smarter than you think and this is a staggering win in the fight against global warming (if the EPA follows through, which depends on the next election).

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#5
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/25/2011 11:59 PM

Good post from from you Roger !

American is the biggest polluters of the world, good Americans must take the lead and make all out effort to clean up the mess they created . It is a monstronous menace that the world have to face.

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#6
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/26/2011 12:21 AM

We weren't alone in creating the mess. Maybe the factories were in America and Europe, but the products created by those factories were found throughout the world (much like Chinese products are today). We are all culpable to one degree or another.

That said, we Americans have contributed a larger share and it is our responsibility to lead. Besides, such actions make alternative energy sources economically viable and alternative energy sources make energy costs smaller in larger time scales. Essentially we'll be trading slightly more expensive energy now for cheaper energy later.

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#7
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/26/2011 2:37 AM

the US has created less pollution than the rest of the world on a per GDP basis. You need to update your information. You are biased.

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#8
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/26/2011 3:23 AM

You're probably right, but our large GDP still makes us historically a large polluter. (Though we may be overtaken by emerging economies.) I'm with Roger that we should try to get out in front on leadership--preferably via phased incentives rather than coercive mandates.

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#9
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/26/2011 10:50 AM

CO2 in the atmosphere is a cumulative effect. By any measure (By GDP, total measure, per capita etc.), when one accounts for the historical emissions, the West is responsible for the majority of emissions.

http://pdf.wri.org/navigating_numbers_chapter6.pdf

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#10
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/26/2011 7:19 PM

How can this thread be off topic?

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#11
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/26/2011 7:24 PM

I made it off topic by accident.

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#17
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/27/2011 11:41 PM

This will be important when the EPA soon makes Carbon Dioxide a regulated emission

Way to go, Roger. If they persist in the CO2 limitations, we can sue the NBA, NFL and MLB, along with the AQHA and other horse racing organizations and the Professional Wrestling groups and any other physical exertion sporting venue for conducting activities that cause the contestants to significantly increase their CO2 footprint. $$$ makes the CO2 go 'round.

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#18
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/28/2011 3:19 PM

Roger

Were you aware of the enormous increase in CO2 emissions (up to 20% per unit) as a result of the effort to contain Hc, (Hydrocarbon) and NOx (Oxides of Nitrogen) the major cause of visual pollution. So now, the fact that we (Engineers) screamed and yelled at the Govt. for failing to deal with the potential increase in CO2 has been forgotten, they are safe from criticism Their too frickin stupid to even have a remote clue as to the complexity of our atmosphere. Politicians are hamstrung by living in a world that is only 10k years old (Huh), while the rest of us have been around long enough to know better than believing anything they say and secure in the knowledge that they will succeed in failing us all. When Garbage is the problem it does little good to throw away the garbage can

It is almost as if we are frantically constructing another world while the world we live in dissolves beneath our feet, and that our survival depends on completing this construction at least one second before the old habitation collapses with or without merit and substantial enough to support only our own weight.

Sundog

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#19
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/28/2011 4:02 PM

I wanted to edit my above comment but apparently my time has expired???

We are like a bunch of tourists that expect the volcano here to provide them with a show. (Maui)

Isn't going to happen here or in Washingslum.

The problem with Co2 is not new nor is the solution. The Govt. is incapable of governing. They had the solution in hand when the last major emissions round included financing the cost of Co2 scrubber technology because Clinton wanted the free trade agreement the funding was never put on the table but Dick (I mean Bill) got what he wanted. Now some HERE want to place new found confidence in a Govt. that is totally wrecked, out of touch with science, and committed to over fighting about whose God has the biggest (parts?)

"Politics is the art of: Looking for trouble, finding it, whether or not it exists, incorrectly diagnosing it, then applying the wrong solution, later than necessary to have any effect."

I am now going to do a 500 ft burnout in my GT500 because somehow that will solve something that some air headed politico needs solving and as soon as the study of the potential of finding something to fix is finished, he will file a statement to that regard unless some other politician upstages the progress by showing us, his parts.

Is this a great parody of a country, or what?

Sundog

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#20
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/28/2011 5:23 PM

What scrubber technology? Amine scrubbing doubles fresh water consumption and increases fuel consumption by 30%. And even if you capture it, what can you do with it? Sequestration can't work either (except for a small amount, in oil recovery operations).

The failed climate bill was not at all about developing technology to address the CO2 problem -- it was for creating a market in carbon offsets. This was excused by the need to "put a price on carbon." Utilities (that is, their ratepayers) would be compelled to buy forestry offsets in distant jungles to meet their caps because the technology for carbon capture and sequestration does not in fact exist.

Offsets could be anything the politicians wanted to subsidize, no matter how remote their relationship to actual emissions reduction might be. At the climate conferences in Copenhagen and Cancun, the pitch was about reparations, why the rich nations should pay poor ones to make up for their past climate sins. Wall Street could pump up another bogus asset bubble, and the politicians could enrich their friends.

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#21
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Re: US Supreme Court curtails suits over CO2 emission

06/28/2011 11:06 PM

Amine tech, wow haven't heard that term since my US Navy submarine service days.

We had mini-subs (still have actually) that used cold cartridge DC/battery powered scrubbers that were the size of a suitcase and could last for days without replacement. The large scrubbers in SSN's and SSBN's required service and (to my knowledge, since the plumbing in a sub is known to all) no water. The units were as large as a normal living room and did in fact create lots of heat. I don't think they consumed much power/fuel as they were not listed as silent critical or part of the general power and systems monitoring units. Honestly I know nothing of the actual process and at my age couldn't care less. It's not impossible to find a solution unless we don't look.

On the political end, Reparations huh, well that would explain a lot, if in fact one was receptive to a Gov. that shuts down the progress of anything that stands a change of actually fixing something. Perhaps a few hundred studies, likely costing more than the fix are in order, again...

You seem to have a handle on this subject so I'll defer to your abilities. I would be interested in any R/D on this subject. It was a real shot in the arm for the auto industry realized they had reached a stalemate and saw no end to the BS regarding auto emissions. Perhaps some day someone will ask; "Why are we busting the Auto industries collective behinds over something that as yet no answer." Which pretty much covers my view of our beloved, yet seemingly inept Govt. Which the term "bogus asset bubble" covers amazingly well don't you think

Thanks

Sundog

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#12

Re: US Supreme Court Curtails Suits Over Co2 Emission

06/26/2011 10:53 PM

Yes, we need to get a handle on CO2 emissions, but when I read about China starting up a new coal-fired plant every week, their pollution drifting across the Pacific to our western shores, having the most powerful economy in the world and claiming "developing nation" status to get out of pollution controls, I look at EPA's efforts and say, "Why even bother?" And it only takes one good volcanic eruption to negate a decade of pollution control efforts.

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#13
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Re: US Supreme Court Curtails Suits Over Co2 Emission

06/26/2011 11:03 PM

We can only expect national preeminence if we hold ourselves to the highest standards. It doesn't matter what any other nation is doing.

We need to worry about ourselves. Forget the fact that its the right thing to do, it will strengthen us by lowering our longterm energy costs while simultaneously cutting off our need for middle east oil. Without the need for Middle East oil, we have no reason to support despotic regimes in the region and can pull out of there and let the people of the middle east determine their own destiny.

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#14

Re: US Supreme Court Curtails Suits Over Co2 Emission

06/26/2011 11:52 PM

I like some of the answers I see here...except...I live in California where the cars have been under emission control (SMOG) for a very long time. They force the 'little guy' to obey the emission laws while big businesses sell the pollution rights they are allowed to produce, but don't use. As to the Supreme Court being all good and wonderful, I suggest that you do as I did, go check the rulings of the Court for the last five years and how each Justice voted. Five of the Justices almost always vote for big business, three almost always vote for the people and one is a swing voter. If folks think they are getting a good deal from the government or the Supreme Court they are dead wrong.

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#15
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Re: US Supreme Court Curtails Suits Over Co2 Emission

06/27/2011 12:09 AM

Yes, I'm familiar with the current conservative bias of the Supreme Court. Something that probably won't change for a while. Of course, that's how it's supposed to be. If 20 of the last 30 years were ones in which we had Republican presidents, then we can't act surprised when we find a Supreme Court with a conservative majority.

I don't think they vote pro business, I think they vote based on their conservative values, specifically a strong free market economy. Now myself personally wouldn't mind seeing a little power return to labor and some sensible regulations reintroduced to businesses, but it looks like it's getting worse before it gets better. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if I woke up one day to a flat tax. That would be an unmitigated disaster.

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