Speaking of Antiscience (GMO and You)

What is a nectarine, other than a genetically-modified, hairless peach?

I suppose so, but something tells me there's a difference between breeding desirable traits, and gene splicing.

Last nights conversation talked specifically about modifying food crops to be resistant to both insects and herbicides.

We apparently are being fed things that have been genetically altered, with absolutely no idea of the long term effects on humans. Furthermore, government regulators, by turning a blind eye, and allowing companies to go unchecked, could be complicit.

I'm hoping someone knows more about it than I do............which is almost nothing.

I'm hoping someone knows more about it than I do.........which is almost nothing.

Kramarat, as part of the work I was doing with Dr. Marvin Miller of Texas A&M in the melon breeding program, I learned how to do gene splicing and transfer of genes from one organism to another. As part of that training, I transferred a gene into E. coli giving it the ability to use Ethylene Glycol (antifreeze) as a food source and the metabolite was carbon dioxide and water. A nice safe way to clean up an antifreeze spill...Or is it?

Note that these transfers almost always use E.coli, a bacterium found in the human gut and implicated in some cases of food poisoning. Now what might happen if that new bacterium should be ingested? NO ONE KNOWS, and that's what's scary. And when that gene that has been manipulated is transferred to a food crop, what else from the E. coli also transfers?

Ice Nine anyone?

Uncanny ! I was thinking of wood just last night .

Are you a betting person?

Maybe I missed it in the links, but since you've worked in the field, a quick question.

Once something is genetically modified, whether it's an animal, plant, or bacterium, is the modification passed to future generations? If so, does it go on forever, making them a new species, or will the modification play itself out, with whatever the species is, going back to the original?

Sorry if I missed it. The answer to these questions, would definitely be a determining factor in my overall feeling toward GMO. If certain species are changed forever through GMO, and then inadvertently mixed with the natural population................

Most RANDOM mutation is bad for the organism, and promptly dies out. But, inserting genes is a different playing field. Want something to fluoresce, when a gene activated? Commecially available. Frost protection? Gene introduced from a sea creature. The Roundup calamity........All these deal with whole, viable genes responsible for certain properties. When they take hold, they stay, and inherited. And that Pandora's box stays open.

There is an excellent movie, I think called Fantasia by Disney. It is excellent and entertaining. In there is a segment about the Sorcerer's Apprentice. The eager, little guy knows barely enough, to be dangerous. Following instructions? What for? That is the level of understanding of our DNA. We have 150thousand genes, no we have only 25thousand. Most of it is worthless repetitive garbage. No, most of them are regulatory genes. If you are not really into it, every 6 months your head is spinning from the contradictions and new discoveries.

THEY SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW, THEY EVEN DO NOT KNOW THAT. Neither do you, nor do I.

I simply hung onto firmly, that I do not know, and conclude, NEITHER DO THEY.

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If airplanes were built to the same standard, there would be a steady rain of them from the sky.

Thanks for the reply. Darnit, I replied to this post yesterday and clicked off the page without hitting the submit button.

If the case is that spliced genes remain in the species and are passed from one generation to the next, I would say that the human species needs to be treading a lot more carefully than we are in this field.

I think some good could come from GMO. I also think that these experiments should be carried out under very, very tight controls...................with strict government oversight.

That sure doesn't seem to be the case right now..............at least in the US.

I would imagine that the unintended consequences could have the potential of making the spreading Africanized honeybee situation pale in comparison.

How can the seed police tell if theirs has cross pollinated with nearby crops?

Do they just go in and take random samples for testing, and if positive, confiscate?

It certainly wouldn't be the first time a company set out to create a complete monopoly.

I wonder where the whistle blowers are?

Here is a story from the news.

The USDA's Genetically Modified Dilemma

Environmental Organizations Sue the USDA for its Approval of Genetically Engineered Alfalfa

June 6, 2011 | Jessica Knoblauch | Organic alfalfa is fed to organic dairy cows. Organic advocates worry that allowing genetically modified alfalfa will contaminate organic crops, and milk supplies.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture was recently back in the courts defending its favorite biotech company, Monsanto. Last month, a coalition of farmers and food safety groups sued the agriculture department for approving genetically engineered (GE) alfalfa without first adequately analyzing the biotech crop's environmental impacts, or the law regulating GE crops, the Plant Protection Act. The crop, known as "Roundup Ready" alfalfa and made by Monsanto, is engineered to resist the herbicide glyphosate, the active ingredient in Monsanto's Roundup weed-killing mixture.

One of the biggest problems with approving GE alfalfa for mass use (and there are many problems to pick from) is that, according to the USDA's own data, farmers currently don't use herbicides to successfully grow most alfalfa. That means that if GE alfalfa is widely grown, up to 23 million more pounds of unnecessary, toxic herbicides will be released into the environment each year, according to the agency's own studies. Another problem is that the crop will inevitably contaminate organic alfalfa, which is fed to the organic dairy industry's cows.

This isn't the first time the Department of Agriculture has gotten into trouble for carelessly approving genetically engineered crops. In fact, it's not even the first time that it's been sued for approving GE alfalfa. In 2007, the Center for Food Safety (CFS) brought a lawsuit against the department for approving the biotech crop without first examining its environmental risks. As a result, the court ordered the USDA to study its environmental impacts, a first for the agency, which has approved GE crops without assessing their impacts for the past 15 years. During the study, GE alfalfa remained unlawful to plant or sell, a ban that remained in place despite Monsanto appealing the case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Despite the concerns that have been raised over GE crops, including the contamination of conventional and organic alfalfa, the evolution of herbicide-resistant superweeds, and increased herbicide use, in 2011 the USDA once again approved the biotech crop for commercial use, much to the chagrin of organic and conventional farmers and environmental groups. As part of its overall work in challenging the USDA's commercialization of herbicide-tolerant crops, Earthjustice, together with CFS and a coalition of farmers, is challenging the recent USDA decision, arguing that it violates the National Environmental Policy Act and other laws.

"We expect Monsanto to force-feed people genetically engineered crops-that's its business model," said Earthjustice attorney Paul Achitoff, who is co-counsel on the case. "We hoped for better from the USDA, which has much broader responsibilities."

In the meantime, Monsanto is finding itself in hot water over its GE crops. A group of farmers and seed dealers recently sued the seed company to invalidate Monsanto's patents in an effort to keep Monsanto from suing them in the event that their seeds are contaminated by the company's GE crops, and a new study found that genetically modified crops appear to leave trace insecticides in the bloodstreams of those who eat them.

The whole thing is smelling stinky.

Seems like the precious EPA should be involved in this too............somehow.

Hallo.

Your "precious EPA" could not give a lesser Bleep. They have other fish to fry.

Read the previos 3-4 notes for all around summary.

When you have lawyers running the show, you have to expect characteristic bullying. They are trained to win, trained to win, trained to win. If the whole thing collapses behind them, which one cares?

There is a nice example for it. UNIX was a good alternative PC operating system. Quirky, layer upon layer, like 10 layers of paint. Nothing ever discarded.

A few years ago a lawyer's group got really, really brilliant. They obtained the UNIX license, and started mugging companies with threats of lawsuits. A potential half a billion was in their sights, when they screwed up their own little game. They went after LINUX. That is an open license spiritual grandchild of UNIX. Open license means, that there are literally 10ns of thousand developer for it, knowing inside out, PROFESSIONAL GROWNUPS. Well, there is a little kink in the game plan. Before an "aggrieved" party really can sue, they have to show damages, prove them in a court and they have to demand immediate cease and desist kind of remedy. Well, they blustered, and blustered some more, but nothing was shown.

Then I have read an interview with Linus Torwalds, the godfather of LINUX. He welcomed and invited the discovery process. Stating, that if any similarity can be shown to the old program, all can be remedied in an average of a half an hour, and the hard disk operation segment might take two days to reprogram to remove any possible semblance. Show them the "offense", and they promptly will fix it.

The fix never took place. The showdown never occurred. As big, bullied companies noticed it, they grew spine. The lawyers group disappeared, went bankrupt as far as I know.

There is a lesson in this tale, and direct relevance to the matter discussed. Oh, by the way, did you notice my running theme on PROFESSIONAL GROWNUPS ??

I did........................but wouldn't that be amateur grownups?

As in, those not in it for the money.

Well, not exactly,

I have had the privilege of meeting some very smart people both in electronics and biochemistry. I cannot hold the candle to what they know. So I would be really hard pressed and reluctant to second guess even Venter's assistants.

On the other hand, I recognize porn when I see one (according a famous supreme court remark). Nor did my common sense take a leave of me, since i am a grey haired citizen.

So, on the technical side I have little business being involved. But, in the longer view, including ethic I feel confident to voice an opinion.

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People's circumstances changed. Their morals did not.

I'm glad you did.

Interesting posts.

Once something is genetically modified, whether it's an animal, plant, or bacterium, is the modification passed to future generations?

Yes, the modification has become an integral part of the new genome, and will be transmitted to its progeny. I am not sure on the classification, but it may be considered a new species, since it will typically back-cross with the original unmodified line, like cantaloupe and honeydew melons can be crossed rather simply. And that is where Monsanto is having a battle, since GMO Alfalfa, Cotton, and soybeans will readily pollinate Non GMO varieties nearby, and seed from the Non GMO thus pollinated will carry the gene. Monsanto could lose control of the germplasm if the grower with the Non GMO crop saves seed to plant. They can solve that fairly simply by making the GMO variety a sterile triploid, like I made a seedless Cantaloupe and non-bolting triploid Celery

Google searches turn up everything from corporate interests telling us that they are working to feed the world's growing population, to people claiming that there is a secret global shadow government working on ways to sterilize us to curb population growth.

Somewhere in between, is the truth.

Nectarine is not a GMO organism but a result of cross breeding possibly. The history goes back too far to be GMO. )The history of the nectarine is unclear; the first recorded mention in English is from 1616,^[14] but they had probably been grown much earlier within the native range of the peach in central and eastern Asia. Nectarines were introduced into the United States by David Fairchild of the Department of Agriculture in 1906.^{[15] Do not mix cross breeding with GMO \, GMO has been proven to be deadly in some cases and NO long term studies have been performed. Also of vital importance is the fact that when prominent scientists have noticed problems with GMO and reported same they get the sack. Be very careful my friends with this monster called GMO.}

Here's the problem. There's enough money to be made here that big Agra-commercial companies are the major players.

They pay off our legislators to gut any meaningful controls that may benefit mankind, but cost money to implemented.

This is just what the pharmaceutical companies have done to allow them to sell dangerous drugs to us at inflated prices.

My Texas farmer cousins use genetically altered cotton seeds. They are not allowed to keep ANY of the seeds produced by the cotton crop. Their cotton crop, to be sure, but the seeds go back to Agra-giant each year. Then they have to buy them back each year. Sweet deal for Agra-giant who makes money coming and going.

Very true.

Last night's radio show said that after harvesting a particular crop, 2 men spend 12 hours meticulously cleaning every surface of the equipment to prevent any seeds from getting out of their hands.........or being released into the wild from these experimental farms.

I can't help but wonder what the effects are to humans, when a food crop is modified to be poisonous to insects and resistant to common herbicides.

Maybe we'll never know. Just another instance of big business and big government working hand in hand to make the world a better place.

This is one of those instances where google is pretty useless. Conspiracy theories abound.

Here's some reinforcement to your post.

A new strain of wheat developed from Monsanto contaminated (germinated) local farmers crops. The court ordered the local farmers to compensate Monsanto.

Read the link!

Watch a documentary called Food Inc, It really got me thinking, and is done very well. Entertaining, yet informative, and gets you going.... might be hard to go grocery shopping afterwards though.

The same people did another one called tapped, which focuses on the bottled water industry. Both are well worth a watch... although you need to keep in mind that it's not all doom and gloom while watching, or you may become upset/depressed or something of that nature.

Just as in the other market areas where natural raised food stuffs have come along. There will be opponents of this. They will then open a market for growers in that area. Food stuffs grown from non genetically modified seeds. In the end the market will tell those big seed companies whether their decision is going to make it.

As far as what hazards these genetically modified seeds impose on us. I would like to believe that any crops are tested before they are put in production.

I would never ever buy anything that has been genetically modified and eat it, it is like playing with fire, and I cannot see any reason for this type of food, surely the Lord has provided us with what we should eat, I find it unethical and un-necessary!

how would you know if what you are buying has GMO content?

there is no labeling requirement...

Here in Britain all foods that have any GM ingredients are labelled as such, easy!

I would never ever buy anything that has been genetically modified and eat it, it is like playing with fire, and I cannot see any reason for this type of food,

Before making a statement like that, you best do some research. because you'll get awful hungry.

That's the type of attitude I'm looking to avoid. All of the fruit and vegetables that we eat have been manipulated by humans in some way. The Lord gave us the brains to figure out how to do it. The Lord also gave us the brains to over do it and poison ourselves.

Let's not go religious.

Oh man! Those honeybee studies are beyond suspect.

We've got declining bee populations. They are becoming sicker and weaker. We are growing insect and round up resistant crops, and spraying them with round up!

No correlation there................maybe it's the cell phone towers.

I'm not even a scientist, and I can recognize those studies as B.S.

Thanks for the input guys. I'll read all of the links posted.

Don't forget the animals..............they're messing with them too. I think I remember something being said about a GMO sheep in New Zealand or somewhere, that was neither male nor female............on a biological level.

Also, apparently there are large scale human trials going on in China with GMO rice crops. They actually aren't trials at all.........they're just doing it.

In my small corner of the farming community, I have heard this discussed and have been involved in discussions on this topic with older full time farmers.

The general consensus that I have seen is that this is a very dangerous stage we are going into. My understanding is within 3 - 5 years GMO corn and bean seeds will be all that will be available (as opposed to non-GMO).

The largest concern is that there has not been enough research done on the effect that GMO's may have on humans.

Another concern is GMO's will get into our food supply indirectly through the feeding of cows, pigs, hogs, chickens (chicken eggs), turkeys, farm raised cat fish and shrimp, ect. not to mention directly through cereals and other manufactured (boxed) foods.

Perhaps the old timers don't like being told that they will not have any option except GMO or maybe fear of the unknown, who knows but it does make one pause and think.

My understanding is within 3 - 5 years GMO corn and bean seeds will be all that will be available (as opposed to non-GMO).

Is that for consumers too? I grow a vegetable garden every year. I wonder if only GMO seeds will be available to us small time gardeners. I'm not liking the sounds of this.

Harvest your own seeds!

Here, there is a small seed business called "Territorial Seed" who I get my seeds/starts through. They do all their own seed harvesting, and cross breeding, and I believe it's all done organically, with non-GMO seeds... but I haven't read the fine print. They do fantastic business here with all the local small time home farmers.

To both you and KJK. Got myself a little worked up there.

Of course non GMO seeds will be available to us. As long as there is a demand, (and there will be), there will be a supply.

I still don't like the idea of all farmers switching over. I grow a nice garden in the summer, but the bulk of my produce, overall, is store bought.

Still working my way through the links. I think I saw "Tapped"...............what a rip off. I drink a lot of bottled water. It's cold and bubbly...........and it tastes like beer.

They're actually called heirloom varieties.

I have no problem with things that have been hybridized through cross pollination. For example, I like big boy and better boy tomatoes.

I'm not even sure that I have a problem with some GMO foods...................I know a lot of people do. Unlike the usual suspects, I like to at least do some research before I start screaming about something......................or decide not to.

I hate it when people jump on some particular band wagon, armed only with outrage, and absolutely nothing in the way of facts.

Difintely. Just like some posts, here. Catch some people at the wrong moment emotions are hard to resist.

I know I'm that way.....guess the first step in correcting it, is admitting you have a problem.

Now!

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

I agree that some hybrids are great and I would hate to see them disappear from the seed market. They have their place, for sure.

This year though I am doing a trial of 8 heirloom or open pollinated tomato varieties, all early and reported to be productive, to try and select some useful varieties specific to my growing conditions, and save the seed.

The price of food is becoming an issue, and the price of seed is way up as well. But considering the impact that crop failures could have on prices, it is more than the pleasure of really fresh food and the dip in the economy due to higher shipping and travel costs that is driving me to hedge my bets at home.

GMO food/seeds for several reasons are something with the potential for an ecological catastrophe on the scale of the impact of widespread antibiotic use, or economic catastrophe if they were permitted to monopolize. Food could become scarce in a hurry. Better safe than sorry, is a useful attitude IMHO.

kramarat,

It does not appear to be for consumers.

It does appear to be for the commercial seed companies, ADM, Asgrow, Pioneer, ect. that farmers buy in bulk from.

I think as long as there are the larger consumer seed supply houses like Gurney's, Burpee, ect. non-GMO seeds will be available to you and I as consumers for some time.

Plus there are quite a few groups out there that harvest and sell/swap seeds in an unaltered state (non-GMO). You can find them with Google + "Garden Seeds".

I am 56, and I don't know about you, but I have not seen a tomato like those I grew up eating, which was even worth putting in my mouth in the last 15 or 20 years.

Even the home grown tomatoes given to me by friends (while better than those from the store), never seem to reach the pinnacle of color, or flavor that they used to have. There was a reason why the song "Home Grown Tomatoes" was a hit. That song would probably not resonate with anybody today.

I know exactly what you're talking about. Tomatoes and corn on the cob used to taste like candy.

When I was a kid, and summer broke, my family would have a meal that consisted of butter & sugar corn, followed by strawberry shortcake with freshly picked strawberries.

Gee, imagine, just a kid, and the closest thing to an orgasm I had, was fresh corn and strawberries. Maybe some fat tomato slices on the side with salt and pepper.

My, how things have changed.

They've changed a lot, and apparently I wasn't paying attention......................somehow I also got kinda old.

beyond the GMO discussion

Produce is bred for transportation & mostly picked green

but then again how could you possible get a ripe tomato from the plant to your mouth, the shelf life is measured in hours not weeks & bruise easily

I understand that....................although grocery store tomatoes in the winter in NC at $3.79 a pound really suck. It's like buying something that looks like a tomato and eating it, just to bring back the memory of a real tomato. Might as well eat little red balls of paper.

This is why I try to avoid late night talk radio. It gets the little rat cage that I call my brain spinning, and sometimes it takes weeks to stop it. In the process, at least I try to learn something.

At this point, I'm not anti-GMO. I started this thread to help me figure out if I should be. It's nice to have some friends that care enough to help me through it.

I don't think that GMO in & of itself is bad

It would depend what the goal of the modification is

Being bug & round up resistant, could have some unintended consequences, could be bad for us. mono cropping big areas is pretty efficient for yield, but isn't as good for diversity & the health of the larger system

for farmers it is cheaper to only do a limited number of crops, keeps the expenses down

we're coming back to the opposing forces of short term profit vs long term

how do we incentivize long term thinking/goals?

I would think that with GMO crops, to fully understand the ramifications, would take small, controlled, test sites, and realistically about 10 years, maybe a little less, to figure out exactly what we are doing. Unfortunately, the profit motive removes that from the equation.

As much anti-big government prattle that comes from me, this is one area that I think the USDA and the FDA should be very involved...................on a daily basis.

Odd that the government is so quick to tell us about things like rising obesity and higher incidents of autism, but silent on gene splicing into our food crops.

As much anti-big government prattle that comes from me, this is one area that I think the USDA and the FDA should be very involved

I, too, am conflicted on the topic. I am for less government (most of the time), but I do believe that one primary roll of the government is to protect it's citizens by force from invaders and enemies (military), from each other or corporation by settling disputes (contractual) and enforcing laws.

I'm not sure I want the FDA and USDA policing the issue as they may be corrupt and appear they may be somewhat culpable (based on previous posts in this thread).

What irks me is that double standard being applied. If a company (non-Monsanto) produces something that blows in the wind and settles on the general public, they can be sued or punished for pollution....but if that company is Monsanto, the general public is punished. WTF?

The GMO business is already putting the small farmer out of business yet world wide studies have shown that it is the small family and community farms that produce the most food at an affordable price.Not to mention the lower cost in fuel and polluting chemicals. Part of the GMO plan is to take over the food production and with food and water you control the population with some government blessings. Lucky for us many of the world's governments have already seen the damage that is happening and have taken steps. The old story that only GMO can feed the world is typical scare tactics same as (We are doing it for your protection) laws and removal of freedom. AKA Home Land Security. These are common tactics and almost never remembered since the awful Bogey person never appears since the King prevented the occurrence and the population rejoices. UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE. The problem is that the King will eventually die but a Corporation goes on forever unless stopped. Just take a search of the medical conditions that are plaguing parts of the world starting about 10 years ago and there is a direct correlation between these diseases and conditions and GMO as well as toxic chemicals related to GMO. The studies are there if knowledge is desired.

Unfortunately, no one.

Here I go getting political again, but much like the promises they make before getting elected, I think the people in government should represent everyone..................equally.

Lobbying groups unfairly skew that representation with big money. They should make all of them illegal, across the board.

I also think that if the government can impose strict testing standards on pharmaceutical companies, (which remain extremely profitable), the same standards, or something similar should be applied to GM foods.

One thing is for sure, GMO is far different than breeding plants to exhibit good traits, while breeding out less desirable traits.

As we age, we need to support the machinery of our body and mind better. I learned biochemistry originally for that reason, finding it fascinating in its own right, afterward. The polynesian traditional drink Kava Kava is an excellent way to calm spinning mind. 10thousand year experience, no side effect. Capsules are fine. I keep it on the shelf, in case I need it. Rarely, I do.

Back to GMO. At a different thread and different time I voiced opinion on recombinant DNA and GMO. The difference is as far as I can establish, that rec.DNA had a very rocky start. After the leading lights came together, and in a PUBLIC PACT established what direction research can and cannot take. And enforced it. This model works.

GMO is handled fundamentally differently. Customary corporate secrecy, patent rights, marketing concerns and such take the upper hand. Grownup professional supervision gets the back seat, if any. Lawyers and marketers inhabit a different galaxis from normal professionals of any stripe. An example illustrates this well. A number of years ago I did share floorspace with marketing types, when not working in the lab. One day there was increasing commotion ahead of me walking to lunch.Finally one guy yelled: Steve, stop badgering me! If that was illegal, somebody wold have stopped me by now. Yep, a completely different worldwiev!! At least, from professionals, who need to have some foresight.

And there is the rub with GMO. No professional adult supervision in the top tier. The obvious, easy to understand cautionary tale is Roundup. No, it is not GMO, per se, but uses the same kind of exquisite chemistry. It targets a specific enzyme, starving chlorophyll, starving the plant. You do not have the green stuff, it is completely nontoxic. So far so good.

Now comes the GMO type thinking. The same outfit produced roundup resistant plants. WHAT?!? What for? Because massive hubris, and massive case of stupid. First the swore to the congress, that it will not escape the experimental plantation. By now you see it coming: it promptly did that. Then they have sworn on stacks of Bibles, and their firstborn's inheritance, that it would not cross species. It promptly did . Now the mess is out, uncontrollable, with who knows what outcome. It will not play out for quite some time.

I should trust these clowns in similar matter? I think I rather not!!! And do not even mention government alphabet soup agencies. They were in on it, and could not or would not spot it. I did, and god knows I am not a genius.

brings memories on the farm

Our meals sometimes consisted of what was in season. Raspberry's and cream/sugar with fresh homemade bread.

it didn't follow the food pyramid or pie or what ever the basic food groups are.

Its the variety's

They look for faster growing meatier fruits such as tomatoes and strawberry's. gets sold by the pound. or as in strawberry's by the quart. The berry look good, but lacks the flavor, and being a larger variety, less pounds per quart.

A lot of water is in these fruits, and lack the taste

The tomatoes have fewer seeds, and I loved the seeds.

There are some seeds available today that have a super taste. I always ask the manager of the store I visit to order some of these tomatoes for me? They are called arkansas Tomatoes. Simply one of the best tasting tomatoes I have ever had. Try some if you can get the seeds. I promise you that you won't be sorry. Just like tomatoes used to taste like not these flavorless smut they offer us today.

A quick "Search All of CR4" for "GMO" will show you that this topic has been discussed several times here.

It seems we're discussing it again. Thanks for your input.

Didn't mean to sound harsh. I will look at those threads for sure.

I can search and google my way through anything. I enjoy the interaction of now.

Almost every conversation that can be had, has been had before.

Why is the FDA willing to put Americans at risk by pushing genetically engineered foods on a unsuspecting population? It's because the FDA, the USDA (drug administration) and big business go hand in hand. Just take a look at the revolving door at our government agencies and the companies that support GE. It's a disgrace.

* USDA Secretary Dan Glickman - worked for a law firm that represented Monsanto prior to his appointment to President Clinton's cabinet.

* Michael Taylor - was a Monsanto lawyer before he was appointed FDA deputy commissioner for policy. After Taylor helped draft the FDA's 1992 policy on GE food and rBGH, he returned to corporate life and became Monsanto's vice president for public policy.

* Margaret Miller - a former laboratory supervisor for Monsanto who helped rBGH for the company, became the deputy directory of Human Food Safety and Consultative Services at the FDA, and helped streamline FDA approval for rBGH.

* Micky Kantor - President Clinton's former personal attorney, Commerce Secretary and US trade representative has been on Monsanto's board of directors since 1997.

* Michael A. Friedman, MD - former acting FDA commissioner who became senior vice-president of clinical affairs for Monsanto's pharmaceutical division, G.D. Searle.

* Linda J. Fisher - former assistant administrator of the EPA's Office of Prevention, Pesticides, and Toxic Substances, then became vice president of federal government affairs for Monsanto.

Do you really think you can trust our government to provide safe food when its hands are buried deeply inside corporate America's (Monsanto) lucrative pockets? Hell NO!

That who's who list is almost as scary as GMO itself.

There's a chance that information is being withheld from the public. (Sarcasm)

Wow!!!!

A little off topic, but I was thinking about this thread the other day and some of the posts.

It's probably worthy of another thread, but these unholy alliances and incestuous relationships between government and business have existed for a long time.

The government and ______________. Fill in the blank. Monsanto, Conagra, GE, Haliburton, all defense contractors, Goldman Sachs..................I'm sure there are many, many others.

I wonder what happened to investigative journalism? Like the kind that exposed Watergate.

The news these days is nothing but fluff. These stories about GMO, and others that involve government corruption should be front page news. No one is left to hold their feet to the fire.

I'm worried that what us little people think about anything, no longer matters in the least.

Thanks for the post.

And it goes on and on and on.....

Michael Taylor. He had been Monsanto's attorney before becoming policy chief at the FDA. Soon after, he became Monsanto's vice president and chief lobbyist.

This month Michael Taylor became the senior advisor to the commissioner of the FDA. He is now America's food safety czar.

"The person who may be responsible for more food-related illness and death than anyone in history has just been made the US food safety czar. This is no joke.

Here's the back story.

When FDA scientists were asked to weigh in on what was to become the most radical and potentially dangerous change in our food supply-the introduction of genetically modified (GM) foods-secret documents now reveal that the experts were very concerned. Memo after memo described toxins, new diseases, nutritional deficiencies, and hard-to-detect allergens. They were adamant that the technology carried "serious health hazards," and required careful, long-term research, including human studies, before any genetically modified organisms (GMOs) could be safely released into the food supply.

But the biotech industry had rigged the game so that neither science nor scientists would stand in their way. They had placed their own man in charge of FDA policy and he wasn't going to be swayed by feeble arguments related to food safety. No, he was going to do what corporations had done for decades to get past these types of pesky concerns. He was going to lie........."

http://www.responsibletechnology.org/blog/858

Amazing!!!!!

I think what we need is a citizen review board...................with teeth!!!!!!

We have become powerless to stop the corruption within government.

Because something can be done, it does not mean, it should be done. And having all the lawyers (as the guy before shown) advising does not help any. Is that the only profession having all the answers? Hardly!

A different kind of hybridization:

Newswise - Herbicide resistance is growing. At least 21 weed species have now developed resistance to glyphosate, a systemic herbicide that has been effectively used to kill weeds and can be found in many commercial products. Some weeds are now developing resistance to alternative herbicides being used. New occurrences of resistance are being noted in varying weed species and locations, creating challenges for weed scientists.

The GMO industry is not a good thing and is being watched and banned by some countries after massive damage to crops and humans. the video by Dr. Geoffrey Smith http://www.seedsofdeception.com/Public/Home/index.cfm gives a very good idea of what is in store. India has banned GMO cotton after it resulted in 12000 suicides by Indian Farmers that could not pay their GMO bills. On top of that when their buffalo ate the leftover cotton plants they died leaving them without beast of burden. Most of Europe has banned or restricted GMO use. Hungary recently banned GMO and Russia is being very careful with it. Please do not confuse breeding of plants or livestock for optimum results with GMO they are not even close enough to compare. North America with the massive corruption is favoring GMO quite significantly. Monsanto and others have even had laws passed to prevent food processors from labeling product GMO free. This is a can of worms that has not been independently tested and for good reason... Follow the money and the corrupt officials.

Here's an example of non-GMO crop science

Researchers at New Mexico State University (NMSU) and the International Crop Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics (ICRISAT), India developed a core collection specific to the Valencia peanut, representing genetics from 15 countries. The full results from this study can be found in the May-June 2011 issue of Crop Science.

Here a link for starlink corn. Its use was for animal feed but has showed up in human foods from time to time. Though it appears to be off the market now.

There gmo salmon that been modified to grow twice as fast as natural. Warnings are if got loose in nature could compete with the natural salmon.

Chicken, beef, pork ALL have hormone, antibiotics injected from birth on till slaughter .

Human consumption of drugs, use of antimicrobial produces and other is starting to show up in drinking water in measurable traces. We are setting our self's up. Have any of you noticed how young children are maturing earlier now as to say 20-30 years ago. The American population on the whole (My opinion, to lazy to research now) is larger taller now than a generation or two earlier. Not talking about being fat (whole other subject) although it goes with process foods.

It looks like the Chinese are mixing insect genes in plant genes.

Also the Chinese Melamine spiked milk a couple of years back. And the pet food a year before. Granted these are not GMO products.

My only concern in gm foods is creating something that can drastically alter the natural cycle if not contained besides the harm to humans.

I understand the desire to make something better but do the long term risks out weight the short term profit gains?

I think there should be full disclosure in packaging as to gmo, radiation, growth hormone, organic or whatever. Let the consumer decide. If the higher price natural food or the cheaper alter food people will decide or some mix of it.

So Cry9C is one bt toxin that doesn't break down quickly in the gut.. surprise.

And scorpion venom in your broccoli? I can't imagine any problem with that.

The rise of "medically unexplained" illnesses, allergies, etc. is a very good fit for the era we're living in.

I am truly, truly sorry having to say I need to. Prior notes were to be reasonable. Recombinant DNA was, after a shaky start, because it was supervised by professional grownups. At GMA the inmates run the asylum, I am afraid. And you and I pay the price. I spoke about before on this thread.

Not long ago I read about the chinese producing human breastmilk in cows. What for, I ask? Does the Roundup debacle teaches them anything at all??? Apparently not. If I get it, anybody can.

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Most anything can get done, should not. If you have difficulty imagining, blow up a bomb in your home. At least Darwin will be right.

I have to ask, what exactly happened that made you 'see the light' and repent of this course in life?

I have seen no light. None whatsoever. Early in the life I was reinforced in thinking for my self. Thats it. Repentace? What is that, and what is for? Is this Catechism?

Enlighten me. I am a Simple Hungarian Engineer, not knowing any better.

Clausewitz: warfare is simple. But the simplest things are hard to execute.

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I think I oversimplified. Please enlighten!

Perhaps I totally misunderstood, but the way you have worded your previous posts you USED to work in this field, and I got the impression that you quit because you came to realize the horror of what this work was unleashing on the world. If I am wrong, I would love to know how I misinterpreted what you wrote.

Yes, you did, but that is allright. I have some connections, and the use of my godgiven brain.

Stupid is a human trait. Nature is, what nature is. We can argue about, what nature should be, but that is for a different day.

Stupid is not a new invention. First world war saw the invention of poisonous gases. Political leadership saw the advantage. Then massive stupid did set in. Can they control delivery? (no, not really) Will it kill only people in brown tunic? (no, not really, not reliably) and so on. Chernobil is a world class stupid of a political appointee, and the people he could cow into submission. The indian chemical plant mishap -perhaps killing 6 thousand was a decision error, maybe in maintenance, stupidly.

But, returning to GMO. Nature manipulates nature, and man does that too. It was maybe 10 thousand years ago, that man started the use of grains. Ever since refinements on nature were underway. But your guts still function the same way, as a - say million years ago. For your health and mine, and our children's, professional adult supervision (not politicians or such flunkies) is a necessity. Wikipedia gluten sensitivity as prime example.

I did not say, that any genie can be put back into the bottle. BUT, recombinant DNA shows, that it can be managed rather well. The present set of characters in GMO, including the industrial, political, buerocratic has shown a profoundly poor performance.

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There is no substitute for professional adult supervision. Sometimes even common sense need to be added.

There is so much possibilities from this.

And there are two sides of the story.

An example:

Killing off the rain forest would also kill off species that live on it. And these same species that could hold a cure for cancer or other possibilities?

Yet these same people complain when its actually done?

A good example is the protein in a spider web is a very strong natural material and scientist have been trying to duplicate its proteins for a very long time. To synthesis a protein it takes many steps, The first step the scientists use is using nature.

Develop goats to produce milk that has this same protein.

http://www.physorg.com/news194539934.html

After which it is refined to gain more production such as developing alfalfa to produce this same protein

And after further developments, it usually can be totally synthesized out of the lab.

insulin took this similar course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Insulin.html

Yep, research can lead to some pretty amazing things. Good things.

I don't think we should be lulled into thinking that it's all good though.

I think scientists, through their own natural curiosity, tend to have blinders on, and think that just because something can be done, it should be done................just to see what happens.

Having many of these experiments going on in corporate labs and farms, with seemingly little government oversite, doesn't seem like a good idea.

Even without GMO, humans introducing different species of plants and animals into areas where they didn't exist before, has had far reaching implications that were never considered. Many of them bad.

Link

It's kind of scary and exciting at the same time. It's this kind of work that could come up with a cure for cancer......................it could also unleash a super bug that makes people sick, and is imervious to all known antibiotics.

I was talking again about PROFESSIONAL ADULT supervision on the research itself, before it is becoming a production item. The dynamics are absolutely different. Oh, I am not talking about purity, but basic differences.

At least, basic research has a basic requirement: publishing. Corporate research is under an umbrella. Production item: wrapped tightly. The management style and structure is different by necessity.

Now, what kind of questions were raised on this thread? Interspecies genes, genes escaping from the testfield, such genes crossing species, Bt genes affecting bees, etc... Without exception FUNDAMENTAL question to this profession, more exactly a FUNDAMENTAL question to our life.

Now that I criticised industry practices, government is next. #23, if I recall correctly listed a sort sampler of the rotation of the personnel from government to industry and back to government again. Interestingly, practically all are lawyers. How much do they grasp and know about your profession or mine? As much, as we do how to handle a corporate default proceeding front of an administrative master. You said, HUH?!? Yes, right you are.

A few years ago the government decided to start the human DNA decoding program. Some 25 years and some 15 billion dollars budgeted. Nice lifetime convenient living, if you can wangle your way in. Along came Craig Venter, an upstart upsetting the nice applecart by his shotgun approach. Fraction of time and fraction of expense later it was done. Recently, he sent his sailboat around the world, brashly announcing, that the world's DNA library will grow 100fold as the result. Neither is a good showing for government. It is good showing for PROFESSIONAL ADULTS. Govt. supervising anything? Yeah, right! How do they do it now??

Basic research - where our turmoil questions belong - need to be in the open. Nothing clears the air, as sunshine and a healthy dose of competitiveness. No lawyers, no beancounters, no marketers.

Industry is different. But successful companies were run by professionals. Remember Microsoft, Lockheed as a sampler?

By the way, Venter has a $ 500million contract with a top oil company. From the top of my head, paid out in stages, based on performance. To develop bio fuel oil. For what I know (nobody is telling me the details of the contract) it is a stretch even for him. But, betting against him? Not me!

To my utter surprise 3 messages came in while I was writing, all affirming my themes (or me theirs). Good work!!!

This is a recent update from Dr. Mercola quoting research done in Canada and elsewhere on the damage done with GMO crops. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/07/20/farmers-win-major-victory-against-monsanto.aspx

Thanks roy.

I wonder if there is an online map of where these GMO farms are, across the US.

My brother has an organic farm in New Mexico................he's also a bee keeper.

I'll do some googling.

kramarat,

Wouldn't have been Coast-to-Coast by any chance? I never listen to that, but I have a friend who has listened religiously (can I say that??) for years. She has passed CD's of "programs" to listen to over the years. I usually never got around to listening to them. But that's how I know about it. You don't have to say, as it could be incriminating.

You have asked a question that has quickly led to the larger issue of "who's in control here."

Life has become like a huge wasp nest that has been disturbed. And the "powers that be" like it that way. There are so many problems and "fronts" that need defending, that it is well nigh impossible to address them with conventional means. The basic roots of these problems (pun noted), can be traced to... I can't see for all the wasps... can we jump to warp speed and get out of here??

There are fringe pieces of data (meaning hard to verify, but intriguing nonetheless) that indicate we are just replaying history from a long, long time ago.

It may have been. I know it's the same station that coast to coast is on.

I don't listen late at night very often. This particular show was interesting............some of it can get a little....um.....fringe.

Wait...is this thread a spin-off??? I assume my check for the residuals is in the mail?

You bet.

I did a little searching on the term antiscience. There are certainly a diverse group of people using the term......................in lots of ways.

I only watched a few minutes of this due to time. I will be watching the rest of it.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/67878/the-future-of-food

To make it sure, that they did not learn from our GMO debacle, the british convinced their parliament, that mixing and matching human and animal genes would be a great idea.

UK scientists want human-animal tests monitored

It seems, that while EU banned GMO foods, they created another one with exactly the same problems.

If you care to know something about, there is a well published example. In the US, about a decade ago only about 2 dozen embrionic germlines were permitted in public research. When they looked closer at them, all were infected by mouse carried viral vectors (from the broth they lived in), TOTALLY UNEXPECTED.

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Not everything, that can be done, should be done. I trust, you can come up with examples, why not?

I have to stop myself from saying that's wrong...................but it sure is creepy.

I just don't know the answer to that one.

I can see some experiments possibly having merit, but the thought of half human, half animal creatures really freaks me out. The possibility of them going too far is definitely there.

What's the problem?

Yummy. Frog legs that taste like bacon.

Hadn't thought of it that way...was more focused on whether it would say 'ribboink' or not.

A little more on that subject:

"Scientists have created more than 150 human-animal hybrid embryos in British laboratories.

The hybrids have been produced secretively over the past three years by researchers looking into possible cures for a wide range of diseases.

The revelation comes just a day after a committee of scientists warned of a nightmare 'Planet of the Apes' scenario in which work on human-animal creations goes too far."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017818/Embryos-involving-genes-animals-mixed-humans-produced-secretively-past-years.html#ixzz1StLWgysN

All we can do is hope that really bad things don't happen.

The problem is, that even if certain things are banned in certain countries, if things can be done, somewhere in the world, they will be done.

Even if it's on a secret island.

More news from Hungary and EU

"In an effort to rid the country of Monsanto's GMO products, Hungary has stepped up the pace. This looks like its going to be another slap in the face for Monsanto. A new regulation was introduced this March which stipulates that seeds are supposed to be checked for GMO before they are introduced to the market. Unfortunately, someGMO seeds made it to the farmers without them knowing it.

Almost 1000 acres of maize found to have been grown with genetically modified seeds have been destroyed throughout Hungary deputy state secretary of the Ministry of Rural Development Lajos Bognar said. The GMO maize has been ploughed under, said Lajos Bognar, but pollen has not spread from the maize, he added.

Unlike several EU members, GMO seeds are banned in Hungary. The checks will continue despite the fact that seed traders are obliged to make sure that their products are GMO free, Bognar said.