Previous in Forum: The Future of Space Exploration   Next in Forum: NASA Announces Design For New Deep Space Exploration System
Close
Close
Close
Page 2 of 2: « First < Prev 1 2 Last »
Rating: Comments: Nested
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129

The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/09/2011 11:41 PM

Kepler's Mission

The centuries-old quest for other worlds like our Earth has been rejuvenated by the intense excitement and popular interest surrounding the discovery of hundreds of planets orbiting other stars.

There is now clear evidence for substantial numbers of three types of exoplanets; gas giants, hot-super-Earths in short period orbits, and ice giants. The following websites are tracking the day-by-day increase in new discoveries and are providing information on the characteristics of the planets as well as those of the stars they orbit.

Kepler Mission Scientific Objective:

The scientific objective of the Kepler Mission is to explore the structure and diversity of planetary systems. This is achieved by surveying a large sample of stars to:

  1. Determine the abundance of terrestrial and larger planets in or near the habitable zone of a wide variety of stars;
  2. Determine the distribution of sizes and shapes of the orbits of these planets;
  3. Estimate how many planets there are in multiple-star systems;
  4. Determine the variety of orbit sizes and planet reflectivities, sizes, masses and densities of short-period giant planets;
  5. Identify additional members of each discovered planetary system using other techniques; and
  6. Determine the properties of those stars that harbor planetary systems.

The Kepler Mission also supports the objectives of future NASA Origins theme missions Space Interferometry Mission (SIM) and Terrestrial Planet Finder (TPF),

  • By identifying the common stellar characteristics of host stars for future planet searches,
  • By defining the volume of space needed for the search and
  • By allowing SIM to target systems already known to have terrestrial planets.

More information found here

The Problem

From all accounts, NASA's Kepler spacecraft has been an unabashed success since its launch 2½ years ago. In February, mission scientists announced that they'd found an astounding 1,235 candidate planets in just the first four months' observations. This cache brims with multiple-planet systems: 115 doubles, 45 triples, and 10 with at least four.

Moreover, beyond its planet-hunting prowess, Kepler has returned paradigm-changing data on the nature of stars themselves, heralding what one researcher calls a "golden age for stellar physics." An estimated 500 astronomers are poring through the spacecraft's ultraprecise light curves, churning out roughly one new research paper per week on everything from a detailed census of stellar sizes and masses to using stars' subtle, rhythmic pulsations to probe their interiors.

But project managers have become quietly concerned that Kepler's top priority - finding true analogs of Earth circling Sunlike stars in temperate, life-friendly orbits - can't be achieved by the time the spacecraft completes its planned 3½-year-long mission just 16 months from now.

It soon became apparent that the problem lay with the targeted stars themselves. Kepler scientists had assumed that stars like the Sun would behave, well, just as the Sun does. Up-and-down churning of gas in the solar photosphere causes the Sun's brightness to vary by about 10 parts per million (10 ppm) over time scales of a few hours.
But brightness fluctuations from the stars being watched by Kepler are greater than that - averaging about 20 ppm for 12th-magnitude dwarfs. This added noise makes their light curves messier and identifying transits by small bodies all the more difficult. "They're much more variable than the Sun," Borucki admits. "It was a big surprise to us."

Where the Antiscience comes in

There is a way around this unexpected setback: the longer Kepler can stare, the better its odds of identifying small worlds. According to a comprehensive analysis just concluded by Gilliland and 16 colleagues, the spacecraft would need to amass at least 7 or 8 years of observations - double the planned mission length - to identify all the Earths passing in front of solar-type stars in the spacecraft's field of view.

Ordinarily, getting NASA managers to extend Kepler operations for a few more years would be nearly automatic. After all, even though the total mission cost is roughly $600 million, it would take no more than $17 million annually to keep it going. The spacecraft is healthy, with enough consumables aboard to last through most of this decade.

But these are turbulent times for the space agency. Substantial cost and schedule overruns by the James Webb Space Telescope threaten to gobble up an ever-greater fraction of NASA's space-science budget. Worse, within the past month Congressional budgeteers have proposed not only to cancel JWST outright but to slash more than $1.9 billion from the Obama administration's NASA budget for fiscal year 2012.

More information here

My Conclusion

Look, I know these Antiscience posts annoy a lot of people. I don't particularly enjoy ostracizing myself by continually bringing up this unpopular (and aggressively denied) subject. I do it because I love science and I feel obligated to speak about what I'm seeing.

What I'm seeing is that we are aggressively destroying science in this country and the silence is deafening. The cuts to NASA are already having terrible consequences and it's only going to get worse.

I'm supposed to believe that there isn't a prevalent Antiscience undercurrent among mainstream America? Look at what this country is doing. You can't just blame fiscal conservatism. The silence of the majority as science is systematically destroyed is doing far more damage. The majority, through their "neutralness" or worse "superficial support" on this issue is enabling this destruction. It's time people other than myself say it. Or are we going to just going to keep pretending everything is ok? Can't we at least admit the vast majority of people in this country simply don't care that this is happening?

We are all the Antiscience and it's weakening our country. We (people supposedly in support of science) need to stop regurgitating talking points and look at this problem more deeply. If we keep pursuing (as scientists) the same old tired approach of "dumbing down science" or "making science cool", in other words chasing rather than leading, then the day will come not to long from now when Scientists are explaining to University Boards why physics is a necessary subject in Universities.

Ooops, I forgot, that day has already come

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcus Aurelius once said "A man's worth is no greater than his ambitions.".

The same could be said for a country's worth. If we as a country don't start more aggressively fostering ambitions beyond our immediate needs, we will cease to be great.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Register to Reply
This discussion was "closed" on 08/17/2011 1:52 PM. No new comments are allowed.
Message from admins:
Discussion has gone too far off topic and has become to political.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#133
In reply to #129
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 9:28 AM

Sure no fault change is possible. We don't have to assign names or political parties to the mistakes that have been made. Just get government as a whole to admit that they have been made and start fixing them...............or completely scrapping failed and wasteful programs.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 519
Good Answers: 11
#131
In reply to #126
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 9:14 AM

"Part of it is to get the government to admit when they've made mistakes and rectifying the problem."

Ha, good luck with that. Every time I turn on the news, I hear one politician complaining about how all of the country's problem are because of the other party.

This government doesn't care.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#134
In reply to #131

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 9:34 AM

I can dream can't I?

Oh they care alright, they just don't care about the right things?

Like I said earlier, it's unfortunate, but I don't think anything is going to change soon.

We will see massive changes when we lose the ability to borrow money. Printing more won't help either.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#135
In reply to #134

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 9:59 AM

it's more important to identify the failures that to place blame

been there done that on safety & process stuff

let the past be the past

move forward

do clean sheet design & see if there is any way to resolve what is happening now with what the goal is

function by function

it's a monumental task

tear off little pieces & keep after it

it's not different than any other process improvement program

we have to move away from use it or lose it budgeting

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#140
In reply to #135

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 12:25 PM

I'm working and just stopped by the house to check in.

We can't possibly let the past be the past. I'll be home later.

A few words of wisdom.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#142
In reply to #140

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 12:41 PM

why not?

remember the past

learn from the past

I've never seen placing blame as productive

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 519
Good Answers: 11
#136
In reply to #134

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 10:04 AM

Yes you can dream.

To be honest, I'm really upset with politicians poisoning people against the Tea Party movement. I don't think you have to be conservative to like what they are doing. They have said that they're tired of the way politicians are acting in Washington so we need to change something.

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#137
In reply to #136

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 10:18 AM

you mean the party of no?

they practice the same politics of diversion [blame game] as the rest

focusing on hot button talking points, rather than getting to work & making system(s) more efficient

not an alternative [except maybe to reality] at all, more extremists

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 748
Good Answers: 64
#138
In reply to #137

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 10:47 AM

When do you tell your kids "no"? It's when what they want isn't beneficial for them. You do that for their good, not to their detriment.

When business-as-usual government (Repubs and Demos) keeps asking for more and more money to spend on programs that haven't, don't and can't ever work, when is it correct to just say "NO"? Now is the time to tell them "no, we don't want you to print more money and make the money that we already have even more worthless".

"you mean the party of no?" There isn't a party per se. The tea party movement is simply a loose group of like-minded people who want to see a return to a government that functions the way it is supposed to, for the benefit of our country (all of us). There certainly is a dichotomy of ideology between those people and the entrenched beauracrats on both sides who have garned their power base and don't want to see it change and who will seek to cast dispersion on anyway who stands in their way, even if the country goes down to proverbial tube in the process.

"they practice the same politics of diversion [blame game] as the rest" This group of people has made recommendations to help solve the fiscal morass we find ourselves in. If what is in place doesn't work you have to shine the spotlight on those policies and programs so that the populace will recognize the problem and want to do something about it at the ballot box at any election that comes up. They did that resoundingly in 2010 when they sent 700+ liberal beauracrats, who held to the belief that big government is the answer, packing from State and Federal positions.

That should have been a clue to the entrenched legislators that the populace is growing weary and hopeless in the current situation and are eager to "throw the bums out" at the first opportunity.

Garth, I notice that you use the term "extremist" quite a bit. Anybody that doesn't fit the big goverment mentality is extreme. Is that it?

__________________
One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do. Ford, Henry
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 519
Good Answers: 11
#139
In reply to #138

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 12:01 PM

I'm glad you got in on this one. I'm really tired of hearing people insult the Tea Party.

What I was talking about initially was that one of the first actions the Tea Party took was to tell a Republican that he had been in office long enough (there should be a term limit to prevent corruption).

To be honest, I haven't heard the Tea Party blame anyone yet (maybe I just don't listen to the media enough). I hear lots of Democrats still blaming everyone else for the country's problems. I find it funny that for 2 years the Democrats had full power but the problems were the after effects of the Bush administration. Now that the Republicans have taken the house, it's the Republicans (and Tea Party in particular) fault that we haven't recovered. Seems like a double standard to me since they've only had limited power for 6 months.

It's funny, I said I wouldn't get involved in a discussion like this in my first post, but I'm just so tired of people regurgitating what's said in the media and by corrupt politicians. Blaming the Tea Party for these problems (and yes calling them the party of "no" is blaming them) is getting no where.

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#141
In reply to #139

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 12:35 PM

no as in no plan

as the recent political theater over a manufactured debt crisis shows

the tea party would break government as completely as possible

there is no realistic plan, freaking out the markets isn't a plan, nor are the vague talking points that keep getting regurgitated endlessly

a movement without leaders would generally be classified as anarchy, not necessarily a bad thing, but would be thought of as extreme by the moderate majority of which I am a proud member

CR4 ADMIN: Modified Post

Vulgar/Rude/Improper Behavior: This post was modified because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#128
In reply to #125
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 8:49 AM

This should be interesting.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#130
In reply to #128

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 9:04 AM

Reminds me of Russell's Project

$1.5 mill won't do much nation building on the ocean [or anywhere else for that matter]

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#132
In reply to #130

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 9:24 AM

http://seasteading.org/mission/intro

Sounds kind of like a place for rich people that don't like any rules. I wonder who they will call when a tsunami or massive storm comes through.

I'll never buy into the concept of no government.

How's Transcendia coming along?

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#123
In reply to #120
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/16/2011 11:04 PM

"If people make bad choices they should have to live with them, not expect someone else to bail them out."

If you don't mind me observing; bailing out is what communities are based in. Obvious include fire brigades, paramedics and ER, but also 'trade', 'service industry', back to 'crop failure', even to 'brothers keeper'.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 748
Good Answers: 64
#127
In reply to #123

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/17/2011 8:38 AM

When I use the term "bail out" I am not referring to short term sustenance-to-survive benefits, I am referring to unending checks from the government, which in turn helps to create a dependency/entitlement mentality.

There are natural disaster times when the Federal government should step in to help because the need is greater than the local governments can handle, but those really are few and far between. Even then, in those situations the people would be better served if the funds were provided by the Federal government and administered by the on-ground local communities who are more in touch with the needs and what is available to help fix the problems.

You're correct about the first-responders services, etc., that needs to be funded, but those are local/state issues, not Federal. The bigger the organization the harder it is to be efficient and effective in it's administration. That's why anything that can be done to cut down the size and jurisdiction of the Federal government, the better off we will be. To the benefit of all.

__________________
One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do. Ford, Henry
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#121
In reply to #117
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/16/2011 7:22 PM

I don't understand either.

Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#59
In reply to #56
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 4:18 PM

Politician are representatives, as in they are supposed to represent our interests. How can you criticize them on the one hand for being cowards and then on the other hand admit they're doing exactly what the people want with respect to science?

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#66
In reply to #59

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 6:27 PM

That's easy roger. They have created a nation of dependents. The dependents that they have created, ( a lot of people), are being represented. They don't care about science in the least. They only care about themselves and the benefits and entitlements that the government perpetuates.

I don't feel as if I'm being represented..................I don't think you are either.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#71
In reply to #66

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 9:10 PM

Some representatives fight for science, but only a few. But I agree with what you're saying. However, I feel we scientists first need to change before we can hope for the general public sentiment to change.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#60
In reply to #55
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 4:33 PM

You Say: "No they're not, don't be such a drama queen."

I say: You are just a recalcitrant spoiled brat, bored to the hilt and annoying as the brown smelly substance being extruded from orifices that will never, or hardly ever see the light of the sun.

I have been following your posts, (always trying to identify some creative streak) your incredibly obnoxious style of communicating. Although I had promised not to enter into any kind of communication with you (I did not say never) I have to break that invisibility cloak.

Now, don't start telling me what I wrote! It is such an elitist style. It wants to make me eating in reverse. Gosh you are annoying! Hope we can meet some day and that I can then see your artificially created abstinence in your eyes or your body language taking part in that exercise, which is possibly that of a small child not getting the lolly in time.

Wish you well, I mean after you have woken up from your Ivory tower nightmare.

With hardly any respect left, Ky.

PS: By the way, next time I rub you up the wrong way why don't you contact admin and make them do things that would annoy me? Nah, you wouldn't do that now, would you?

PSS: Did I really press the submit button?

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#61
In reply to #60

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 5:03 PM

This years production of the CR4 Drama Club

The Anti-Science

Starring the Mighty Penguin Hunter

Directed by Dr Pink

Written by The Engineer

Produced by His Royal Hiney the next President,

Sir Roger Pink

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#63
In reply to #61

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 5:22 PM

See if I get the daily digest today.

The Anti-Science

Stirring The Mighty Penguin Hunter Today.

Golfus interuptus

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#65
In reply to #61

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 6:19 PM

You forgot to mention kramarat as the depressed jester.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#62
In reply to #60

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 5:12 PM

I'm devastated. I've got some thinking to do. Thanks for bringing me to my senses Ky. Your eloquence is only surpassed by your insight.

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week (and weekend apparently).

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#64
In reply to #62

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 5:55 PM

Stop acting! Be like a person willing to communicate with underlings in a more constructive (fashion?) and not in such a patronizing way.

Thanks for bringing me to my senses Ky

Your cynicism made a sound while going over my head. Kepler Mission?

What is your real agenda? I mean, not only in this post, in all of them. Not every thing against is ANTI. I know how smart you are and how much all of us have to learn about so many things. Why not try it with some normal ways of communication? Maybe I am a bit thin skinned when it comes to being school-mastered, maybe even chip on shoulder material.

Please, just show me one conclusion you have come up with after all of that you said, I said nonsense. Bloody italic or not. I mean what is the point you are trying to make. Showing me (us) how it was done and what your Professor told you to do and how? What does he think about your abrasive way of getting a point over? Maybe you should second guess him?

You know, I remember like it was today, when we had a conversation (discussion, debate) about Nietzsche, way back then. You had no idea what you were talking about and tried to indoctrinate me with some learned crap (Even our Prime-minister uses that word) and are the poorer for it. Your intolerance was unbearable and excluded you from true insights in to the thought patterns of one of the great men of philosophy.

Gosh you annoy me, no end in sight. I will get back to doing some creative stuff now.

It's been a pleasure though, Ky.

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#69
In reply to #64

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 8:34 PM

Apparently you live in a world where you can come out of no where, run up to a guy scream obscenities in their face and then act indignant when they laugh. C'mon man, get a grip. I can't possibly take you seriously on this thread. I mean, reread your post (#60). You completely lost it (apparently oblivious that my comment to Kramarat was tongue and cheek).


You Wrote:"Why not try it with some normal ways of communication? "

Seriously?(#60).

Look, no hard feelings, but I'm not going to take you seriously this thread. I mean, you opened with:

"You are just a recalcitrant spoiled brat, bored to the hilt and annoying as the brown smelly substance being extruded from orifices that will never, or hardly ever see the light of the sun."

That doesn't really come across as "I'm interested in having a discussion, take me seriously. It comes across more like this. Which is fine, but please don't seriously expect me to have a conversation with you afterwards. I mean, you're acting insane.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#68
In reply to #53
Find in discussion

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 8:18 PM

What a difference a word makes

"anti-abstraction"

In this you state the true core of your beliefs and it is indeed worth debating/discussing.

Whereas sans that 'true core' root relationship; "Anti-science" is a conclusion drawn, that carries a range of esoteric 'symptom/disease' vagaries, no one can really grasp. Hence the problem 'selling it'.

But, now, under this;

Everything else is just a consequence of this belief

Your idea perfectly clear.

under;

So what do I say?

We have 'points' and 'directions' to discuss.

under;

Now I know

No, all you actually know is; you used the wrong word in the title - all else has flowed from you thinking one word - and everyone else - reading/thinking the other one in use.

--------------------------------

So, topic wise; the question at hand becomes; "How much do I explain".

E.g.

A. Do I tell my client the full molding, flow, tonnage, temperature, viscosity, speed, mould flow, gating, screw, .... reasons the cost of a part made in styrene is different to made in SAN?

B. Or do I just tell them the price? (and let them decide 'worth', existentially)

C. Or do I tell them why it must be made in one verses the other, in terms of product functionality? (explain 'worth' to them in their values system)

Some clients need A. Every would choose the cheapest B. Most clients need C.

C. is the 'expertise' based in A. that clients need to make B. i.e. 'correctly balanced funding decisions'.

If however the 'expertise' is addicted to A, the client may 'veg out'. If the 'expertise' is only willing to talk A in terms of Nylon - they will veg out totally confused.

I hope the above analogy makes sense to you.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#70
In reply to #68

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 9:07 PM

You Wrote:"In this you state the true core of your beliefs and it is indeed worth debating/discussing."

I'm glad, and I'm willing to Ignore the fact that I've said in every thread (including the original) that the Antiscience is a result of Anti-abstraction run amok (extreme existentialism run amok). I'm just eager to have a discussion on this issue.

You Wrote:"Whereas sans that 'true core' root relationship; "Anti-science" is a conclusion drawn, that carries a range of esoteric 'symptom/disease' vagaries, no one can really grasp. Hence the problem 'selling it'."

That's true, but if one starts looking for it, it shows up all over the place. Now whether or not this is "seeing what one wants to see" is another question.

You Wrote:"No, all you actually know is; you used the wrong word in the title "

No, in my opinion, the Antiscience is simply one manifestation of this anti-abstraction.

You Wrote:"Or do I just tell them the price? (and let them decide 'worth', existentially)"

And how can somebody with rudimentary math and little science honestly be able to determine "worth" of science? They can't of course, which makes the whole exercise a farce. To "sell" them, as a scientist, you either have to create a boogie man for them to fear or your sunk. It's a charade and I think scientists need to stop playing along.

You Wrote:"Or do I tell them why it must be made in one verses the other, in terms of product functionality? (explain 'worth' to them in their values system)"

Again, if they don't understand science or math, we really can't explain anything to them beyond gross simplifications. It's an exercise in futility. Besides, hasn't the scientific method proven it's worth yet? I'm not saying approve every scientific project. I'm just saying if 90% of scientists are agreeing that something is important, stop asking us to explain it and just fund it. We know what we're doing (as a group, as individuals, feel free to doubt us, that's fair).

You Wrote:"Some clients need A. Every would choose the cheapest B. Most clients need C."

That's the point isn't it? You use the term "clients". Is everything capitalism? I don't think so, but you may disagree. I think human endeavor is more than just capitalism. Or to put it another way, consider the absurdity of the following conversation:

MD: Ok, now all we have to do is the vaccinations...

Patient: hmmm...I'm not convinced these are necessary, sell me on them

MD: um, ok, well, many of these diseases were wiped out by vaccination

Patient: Sorry doc, that's not good enough. I want you to explain each and every
vaccination to me, how it works and why it's necessary or I'm not doing it.

MD: But you won't understand what I'm explaining, it involves in depth medical topics. You won't understand what I'm saying.

Patient: That sounds like a lot of excuses.

It's a bit absurd right? I mean, the success or vaccines are obvious, yet the patient demands a detailed explanation they couldn't possibly hope to understand. That is the antiscience.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#73
In reply to #70

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 9:36 PM

Roger a "client" is a euphemism in my context for any person, or group, you interact with to provide them a service.

Generally the client has funds and wishes to invest toward best value.

A client is not necessarily a capitalist, but you could argue - always an existentialist

Or you could argue - adverse to paying for nothing, being ripped off, conned, or even, just not fond of waste.

Vaccinations

The disadvantage of this 'example' is you are not a parent. If you were, you would be aware the 'triple antigen' is fraught with reaction problems in small children.

It is a case of 'science' not assigning proper values under B.

You will also bring all the HIV issues associated with the 'race for a circumvention of Salt's IP' - out of the woodwork.

You need 'pure examples' to push "anti-science" and there are none. There is no "pure science" you can put up that I can't example its "pure screw-up".

I sense you have not grasped the difference in the words as you have reverted to the 'insupportable' one.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#76
In reply to #73

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 11:05 PM

Look. I honestly don't know where to go from here. I chose the Vaccination example because I thought it was a obvious case of irrational fear ignoring mountains of scientific data to the contrary.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Index.html

Only you apparently believe this myth? Please tell me you're aware of this scumbag individual scientist who started this myth. Please tell me I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.


Because if you do believe that vaccines are somehow harmful, then what else is there to say? How could I ever hope to convince you how easily people get confused about science if they don't have a handle on math and science if you don't even believe vaccines are safe?

American Medical Associations take on Vaccine

I can honestly say your belief in this has blindsided me and I'm very hopeful you either were not aware this was a not a real scientific debate or that I have simply misunderstood your meaning.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#79
In reply to #76

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 11:22 PM

WTF happened? I went outside for a smoke and now 34.5 doesn't believe in vaccines?

You guys are killing me.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#80
In reply to #79

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 11:29 PM

I think I may have misunderstood what he said. I'll wait for his response. It's possible he was saying something more subtle that I missed.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#85
In reply to #80

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 12:29 AM

It's very possible, in fact quite common that you "misunderstood what he said", not just me.

I have had personal experience with children reacting to triple antigen vaccine. It is not a case of 'read it on Wiki', it's a case of life threatening fever temperatures - that some parents didn't recognize and their children died.

Nowadays, parents are given a choice of 3 separate shots, or 'double' and a single, at offset time frames for the course.

This is 'more visits' and 'more needle trauma' - those being the 'rationale' behind the 'triple idea' - I class as "B" thinking = 1/4 story = you call 'too dumbed down'.

Am I anti-vaccination? No. I'm anti-the-stupid-scientist-thinking that you can overload a child's immune system to save a $ and not risk massive trauma even death.

As I said, debating "anti-science" is a lot different to discussing "anti-abstraction"

I.e. I am just demonstrating to you, again, that you are using an un-sell-able descriptor.

Many, aside from me, have attempted conveying this.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#86
In reply to #85

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 12:47 AM

I tried to give you an out man but you just plowed forward with the stupid, didn't you?

You've been talking pretty rough to me for a while now and I've been holding back. I've had enough, so I'm sharpening my tongue for this one post then I'm out.

I'm a scientist who takes 1000s of clinical trials over a personal experience you had that you could have misunderstood in a thousand of ways. If you wan't to be a crackpot and believe vaccines are bad for you because you misunderstood something that happened in your clueless ignorant way, then that's your problem, not mine.

CR4 ADMIN: Modified Post

Abuse/Attack: This post was modified because it was an attack on another user. Please review the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#87
In reply to #86

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 1:02 AM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Irrelevant This post was deleted because it is related to a deleted post and would otherwise be taken out of context.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#88
In reply to #87

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 1:07 AM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Abuse/Attack: This post was deleted because it was an attack on another user. Please review the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#90
In reply to #88

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 1:20 AM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Irrelevant This post was deleted because it is related to a deleted post and would otherwise be taken out of context.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#89
In reply to #86

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 1:15 AM

WOW.

Twiddle di, twiddle dumm.

This discussion was closed a bit earlier. You have now shown your skeleton. Not a pretty sight.

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#103
In reply to #89

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 10:34 AM

we can go petty far with the one man show analogy

the writer/director/star having a major hissy

sometimes I wonder if, he's just playing the part as written?

I can also go pretty far with the customer service analogy

the product: science

the customer: the population of the US

The CFO: congress

how do we get the CFO to keep cutting checks?

a) yell at him & tell him he's stupid, not able to understand the complexity of the subject?

b) explain the need for an expenditure in terms the CFO understands?

c) show an ongoing responsible use of funds in the past [ doesn't matter if it's true, it's the spin]

how to do b,c? There is the added complexity of the gasp "public"

you can talk about the conditions that got us here "the anti" [insert your choice]

or like a good engineer/scientist/service provider figure out how to make the best of the situation, possibly even make it work to your advantage

who is being successful? what can we learn from them?

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#91
In reply to #86

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 5:04 AM

Feels good, doesn't it?

I think we may have solved the problem of, "Where in the world are roger's balls."

There is still much work to be done. Hang in there boy!

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#92
In reply to #91

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/14/2011 6:17 AM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Vulgar/Rude/Improper Behavior: This post was deleted because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#78
In reply to #73

Re: The Kepler Mission- Antiscience's Next Victim

08/13/2011 11:19 PM

I'm going to start a new thread on vaccinations where I tell the whole story of how these myths started. Probably tomorrow.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply Page 2 of 2: « First < Prev 1 2 Last »
This discussion was "closed" on 08/17/2011 1:52 PM. No new comments are allowed.
Message from admins:
Discussion has gone too far off topic and has become to political.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

34point5 (14); Anonymous Poster (1); Bayes (34); chrisg288 (1); cingold (7); cuba_pete (1); cwarner7_11 (2); facilitiesmgr (13); Garthh (24); kramarat (41); ky (4); sue (1)

Previous in Forum: The Future of Space Exploration   Next in Forum: NASA Announces Design For New Deep Space Exploration System

Advertisement