Previous in Forum: Solid State Stabilizer   Next in Forum: Series Couplers
Close
Close
Close
16 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Commentator

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 80

Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 10:20 AM

Does the vector group affecting the price of the transformer?

For example, the 2MVA Dd transformer is always cheaper than 2MVA Dy transformer?

Or the price only determines by the capacity of the transformer?

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: Vector Group Vs Price
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 10:30 AM

Which country?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
India - Member - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Temporarily at Ashburn, VA
Posts: 2744
Good Answers: 164
#2

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 10:50 AM

i have absolutely no idea, having zero knowledge in this field. i am eager to see experts give their responses...

But i think, is it logical ? If one was cheaper, why would anyone want to buy a more expensive one just for a neutral (or absence of one)? i await with bated breath....

__________________
Nothing worthwhile can ever be taught, it can only be learnt.
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - ESD - New Member India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pune , India
Posts: 875
Good Answers: 42
#11
In reply to #2

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/24/2011 12:10 AM

The decision to go for DD/DD or DD/DY mainly depend on your requirement . If a step up transformer for EHT transmission ( 11kV to 220 kV or 400 kV )can be DD/ DD as the transmission is 3 phase 3 wire and there is no requirement of neutral . Where as in case of a 3 phase 11kV /430 V transformer for LT distribution transformer Neutral is a must as the distribution will be 3 Phase 4 wire system necessary to provide 230 V line (220/110 V in case where that voltage distribution system prevails)to neutral supply to single phase consumers .( Only if the complete load is purely 3 phase delta then DD /DD transformation system can be used.So it is not financial consideration but technical requirement by which decision is taken.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#3

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 10:52 AM

Who on earth are you getting quotes from?

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#4

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 11:03 AM

A Dd transformer, needing no neutral terminal, is a simpler piece of equipment.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 80
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 11:34 AM

It also means cheaper? I'm asking because I have to change the vector group of 3 winding transformer from Dy5 Dy5 to Dy5 Dd0.

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Liverpool, NY
Posts: 961
Good Answers: 131
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/22/2011 12:16 PM

It MAY be less expensive, because the manufacturer needs to install one less bushing (and associated hole in the tank, bushing flange, cable, etc.), but you cannot be sure until you get a quote. There may be other considerations such as the size and length of the conductor used in the delta vs. wye winding, the amount and type of insulation used, how the winding is blocked and braced, etc. There are many factors, so it is impossible to make a generalized statement that delta will cost less than wye.

There are other considerations for your electrical system to consider. Can you adequately protect for ground faults if you don't have a neutral from the transformer? How will you protect for ground faults? Are you loads all 3-phase motors, or are there single-phase loads also.

Be careful when you say "I can just change it to a delta winding" without examining all the impacts. "Cheaper" often comes with an unintended price!

__________________
To get the right answers, first you need to ask the right questions.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#10
In reply to #5

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/23/2011 8:40 AM

Get some proper quotes and find out!

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Power-User
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia/India
Posts: 365
Good Answers: 1
#7

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/23/2011 12:12 AM

In three phase transformer of 1:n ratio

for primary (V,I) there is (n.V, I/n) secondary in case of Delta-Delta.

(n.√3.V, I/(√3.n) Delta-Star.

(n.V/√3, √.I/n) Star-Delta.

(n.V,I/n) Star-Star.

These parameters are important while selecting capacity of transformer.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: India
Posts: 91
Good Answers: 6
#8

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/23/2011 2:02 AM

I think Yes,

Let us consider 2 MVA 6600V/440V trafo.

Pirmary current = 2000/1.732* 6.6= 174A

secondary current=2000/0.44=2600A

In case secondary is delta, line current is 2600A. But Each winding need to withstand 2600/1.732= 1501A

But in case secondary is star connected, each winding need to withstand 2600A.

So the increase in winding thickness increase the price.

Am i wrong or correct?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1013
Good Answers: 36
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/23/2011 3:43 AM

You are Wrong.

Your Formula for the 2ndary is missing the 1.732:

S = UxIx1.732 ==> I primary = 2000 x 1000 /(6600 x 1.732)

I secondary = 2000 x 1000 / (440 x 1.732)

Even though you got the answers correct in those lines.

The current in both cases will be the same in the windings.

Register to Reply
3
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: India
Posts: 91
Good Answers: 6
#12
In reply to #9

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/24/2011 1:30 AM

Thank you for correction.

Consider the case 1:

Two numbers of 2 MVA trafo with same specification of primary/secondary voltage, but one is DD and other is DY. Let us consider 6600/440V

A)

In DD trafo, secondary is delta. So voltage across each winding in secondary is 440. i.e. 440V is induced in each winding.

Phase current =1.732* line current

Line current =2600A

Current in each winding or phase is -1501A (as already mentioned in pervious post)

B)

In DY trafo,

Secondary line voltage = 440V

Phase voltage =440/1.732 =254V

So voltage induced in each phase= 254V.

Line current = phase current =2600A.

Conclusion:

· In DD number of secondary turns in each winding would be higher than the DY by 1.732 times (according to the voltage induced (440/254V))

· In DD secondary winding thickness would be lesser than DY (according to the current capacity(1501/2600A))

These points also affect the price.

Consider the case 2:

Two numbers of 2 MVA trafo with different specification of primary/secondary voltage, but one is DD and other is DY.

Let us consider 6600/440V in delta

6600/762V in star.

In these case the same trafo secondary can be converted from Delta to Star. No changes in thickness and turns ratio.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Power-User
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia/India
Posts: 365
Good Answers: 1
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/24/2011 3:09 AM

Correct ! GA for you.

Register to Reply
Guru
India - Member - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Temporarily at Ashburn, VA
Posts: 2744
Good Answers: 164
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/24/2011 4:42 AM

Conclusion:

· In DD number of secondary turns in each winding would be higher than the DY by 1.732 times (according to the voltage induced (440/254V))

· In DD secondary winding thickness would be lesser than DY (according to the current capacity(1501/2600A))

These points also affect the price.

Er.... more turns of less cross-section vs less turns of more cross-section....do you thing that copper will be less in one? If you do detailed calculations, you will realise that there is no free lunch in the world....both will be the same.

__________________
Nothing worthwhile can ever be taught, it can only be learnt.
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: India
Posts: 91
Good Answers: 6
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

08/26/2011 10:51 AM

Yes Sir,

They do not affect the price much, but affect.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: India
Posts: 91
Good Answers: 6
#16
In reply to #14

Re: Vector Group Vs Price

10/15/2011 11:14 PM

At low voltage, cost of conductor is the main concern.

At High voltage, cost of insulation is the main concern. (Delta winding voltage is √3 times higher than star- So insulation cost & thickness rises)

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 16 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); hithuanand (2); kvsridhar (2); LAA_Lucke (1); Local_Eng (1); Lspraba (4); PeterT (1); PWSlack (3); V.I.Abraham (1)

Previous in Forum: Solid State Stabilizer   Next in Forum: Series Couplers

Advertisement