Patent Help

Yep. Forget the web. Go to a regular published directory, like Yellow Pages. Start there.

but doesn't it burn if someone else steals your idea.. and then sues you for infringement? doesn't a patent help with that? or do you end up paying to use your own invention?

chris

And remember, if you do patent, the burden of proof lies with the patent holder. Think somebody is infringing? The patent holder has to identify the infringer, prove it, then attempt to prosecute. Patents represent a revenue stream for many companies. They file as many patents as possible, even though they never intend to commercialize or otherwise apply the patent. Their intent is to license the invention to others or catch them infringing (and they typically have large legal staffs and other resources to do that).

I do hold several patents, most of which are assigned to my former employer but many of our most creative products and processes were never patented by choice. If a product or process is truly novel, it is often best to simply trademark and maintain it as internally confidential. Patenting requires disclosure of details that benefit potential competitors. It can actually shorten competitive time to market significantly. Saves them from having to acquire, analyze and copy the product (with some minor modification of course to avoid infringement).

If a product or process is truly novel, it is often best to simply trademark and maintain it as internally confidential.

Not sure how it works in the US, but the UK the word "Trade Mark" or "TM" as it is usually put, as told to me by the UK patent office means "Totally Meaningless".

I have several "TM's" but it does not stop anyone from using the words or letters or design/colours etc, it only stops another party from falsely representing themselves by using the EXACT copy.. other than that it is not worth a hill of beans (in the UK)

Try using the Disney Logo, or any of it's 'trade marked' Characters and you find out just high that hill of beans is! If you have the money to back it, it really means a lot.

I would urge caution.
Do you have a working prototype? Have you researched the potential market?
Generally a patent will cost a great deal and offer little protection if your device is easy to copy.
Remember you can't patent an idea just a device/process etc.
The best way to make money out of it and see it developed into production may be to approach a company making something similar, of course the tricky thing is to demonstrate it without divulging the vital details or IP.
An existing manufacturer will have the resources to develop, market and patent it whereas an individual probably will not. An existing manufacturer will prob be able to produce it quickly and in numbers to deter the copyists.
All the above assumes it is a viable product, and an existing manufacturer may give you an honest appraisal of this.
Del

Thanks for the input, from what I can tell thus far prospects for profiting are dim. Demonstrating a workable prototype to a manufacturer would be easily accomplished. Unfortunately it would not an require much effort to figure out how the device works.

The problem I am addressing which I ran into myself is that compact fluorescent bulbs are unsuitable for use with motion sensors which generally are parasitic devices in that they draw power from the circuit. At least here in the United States incandescent bulbs are legislated to become unavailable in 2012.

The problem is also becoming worse in that many new garage door openers refuse to operate compact fluorescent bulbs.

The solution was extraordinarily simple I'm fairly sure you can figure it out from the information I have provided. The profit opportunity certainly exists as I've been able to locate no other device on the Internet. Unfortunately I probably will not be the one to profit from it.

I have a similar problem with the timers. I would like to use CFL's in my outdoor driveway light that I have on a two-wire timer, but these timers depend on a couple of milliamps of current through the "cold" filament to operate the electronics. These timers do not work with CFL's.

My solution is to wire a 4W bulb in parallel with the CFL. In that way, the timer gets its parasitic current when "off" and I get reduced operating costs when the light is on. Of course we could place a parasitic current into the base of the fixture that would ensure the "off state" power. A PTC device would work rather nicely as well.

Nowadays you can patent a "Buisiness Model". This means you can't sell things the way I do. Really stupid concept.

...and don't let LynDoor Industries or the KrisDel Corporation in on the act!

LynDoor™ Ind. have the best patent attorneys, Dewey, Cheatum and Howe.

KrisDel are just hot dog vendors, past their commercial prime.

LynDoor™ is top notch, all the way!

YWROADRUNNER, Find a local patent attorney and pay him for a 1 hour consultation. Lay everything out and ask him.

I had an experienced attorney do mine, but, at the time I was working for an equipment manufacturer who paid the bills. Patents gave them a competative edge over their competition.

Thanks for the advice. I'm trying to get a reference for a patent Atty. Paradoxically enough for my workman's comp Atty.

Having dealt with the legal system for three years now in what should have been an open and shut workman's comp cases the word attorney sends shivers down my spine.

Dewey Cheatham and How if not the name of a law firm is certainly the motto of most. I am beginning to think that the older more reputable law firm of Smith and Wesson may be a more appropriate firm to utilize for most legal disputes.

Smith and Wesson won't bill you 15 minutes for a 3 minute phone call.

I am beginning to think that the older more reputable law firm of Smith and Wesson may be a more appropriate firm to utilize for most legal disputes.

I was not aware that two of the partners in the Security Company I hired to provide asset security had opened a legal practice. I hired the firm of Colt, Remington, Winchester, Smith and Wessson to provide security, and no complaints to date. Part of the contract was a sign to be posted with high visibility: WARNING: TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT. SURVIVORS WILL BE PROSECUTED. Colt, Remington, Winchester, Smith and Wesson. I guess Smith and Wesson would handle the prosecution.

I would like to thank all that have responded, you've given me a lot to think about. While I'm sure it would be a useful device I'm not sure that I can make any money off of it. I will apologize for the cloak and dagger however the potential value of the device was illustrated while visiting the local electronices dealer who was not only extremely interested but he immediately started thinking of how he could profit from the idea.

A quick answer to some of the questions asked. I have a working prototype incorporated into my lighting controls in the garage. A portable proof of concept will take about 10 minutes and a trip to Home Depot to cobble together.

I would be happy to PM any of the regular members that have responded thus far with more specific details trusting your integrity however I am sure you can understand the reluctance to post detail publicly.

P.S I'm sure more specific details of the product would be helpful in evaluating its potential value. Or letting me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree .

Be careful. You don't want to tell anyone, or show anyone your idea before you file..................if you're going to file. This is considered public disclosure, and you can potentially destroy your chances of getting a patent before you even get started.

Many patent attorneys will give you a free or very reasonable initial consultation. If you don't plan on making money from it, don't bother. It's a lot of time, money, trouble and aggravation.

I'm at the 2 year mark since I filed, and supposedly will hear something from the patent office somewhere around the first of the year.

In the meantime, it's a good idea to familiarize yourself with the process and the terms here.

Gone are the days when inventors went and patented their brilliant inventions which changed history.

Reason : Lawyers were people who helped their clients to face off against the giant Government and Industry at that time.

Have you met a patent attorney lately? Anyway, when you do, please ask him to quote on a basis of a percentage of the royalties you will get on your idea. i am really curious to know his reaction. This is not that different from a Class Action ? (for example Erin Brockowich)

I pretty much share your cynical view, it's quite likely that my idea that evolve from fixing a problem I had will be of no value to me. It is a shame that the corporate world has pretty much completely eliminated the potential for individuals to market a product.

From what I can tell they do this either by circumventing a patent or simply engaging in a patent fight of course it all comes down to who can hire a shady lawyer.

We do have a patent attorney in the membership, who has given 'down to earth advice' from time to time - but I don't recall his ID - was pretty active about a year ago, I think. Perhaps have a search on the many other threads on this topic.

_{Or maybe another member has a better memory and can point you directly at him}

It is true that a patent only prohibits others from practicing the invention.

In theory. The patent doesn't prohibit anyone from doing anything. It only gives him the grounds to sue if they do. Which, as you said, is costly.

A patent only affords you the grounds to sue the infringer.....................that's it.

Beyond that, the patent office will be of no help.

I will make this short and sweet, Ive been down this road several times. firstly a patent is not just about protection as much as it is about investors. Investors will not talk to you without YOU having a patent.

Secondly take any and all information you have and mail it to your self.

lastly hire a patent attorney

Good luck!

A lot of truth here. I would only change the word 'attorney' to 'professional'.

noted

When mailing it to yourself remember two things -

1. Put a tamper proof seal across the flap
2. Do NOT open it when it arrives.

The reson for this is that it acts as a time capsule - proof of what you knew/had invented when. The when is vital in the patent world.

I see the Union Jack is part of your signature, so perhaps things are different from whence you come, but the whole 'mailing something to yourself' idea, will not stand up in an American court. It proves nothing, as people could always mail a minimally sealed envelope to themselves, and put anything they like in it, and then reseal it. There is no better way to accomplish a legal record, than to put it all in a bound ledger that has sequentially numbered pages date your work, and regularly have two witnesses sign that they have read and understand your work. The witnesses need to sign nondisclosures documents.

File a provisional patent application, giving as full a description of your idea and its embodiments as you can. Don't worry about the formalities of a non-provisional application -- you have a year to file this, following up on the non-provisional with formal claims and drawings, etc. It would be good to have this in hand when you meet for your initial consultation with your patent attorney/agent. A letter to yourself won't give you a priority date, but filing a provisional will.

Do a patent search and a search of trade literature to see if something like it is known. Get your free account at freepatentsonline.com so you can download pdfs of patents and published applications. After searching a while you should be able to zero in on what class/subclass your invention is in. The Manual of Classification should then be consulted to give you the right terms of art to use in describing your idea and to confirm your initial assessment of its classification. Doing lots of searching will help you with the Background section of your non-provisional application.

It often amazes me how accurately stating the problem suggests the solution. Your search will help with stating the problem in specific enough terms that the solution seems to follow obviously.

First and foremost, you need to perform a patent search on this very simple device. The best $950.00 I ever spent, was for a qualified patent attorney to tell me that I need not waste any more money. It seems that even if someone writes their patent so broad that it covers your device, and even if they are not issued a patent, then you cannot pursue a patent because all patent applications are now open for search as well, and his patent application placed my derivation into the public domain. Such are the type of pitfalls that you face when strolling through this mine field.

Also, if it is so obvious, there is a very good chance that you would be turned down for a patent anyway.

Thirdly, DO NOT spend a penny with ANY invention promotion company. You will be taken for a lot more than a patent search costs. You have been warned.

Fourthly, if you should happen to find anyone willing to buy your idea, take the money and run. A good invention is doing well to earn the inventor 7 to 10% of gross, if it sells big. That is unless the inventor intends to make that product himself at his kitchen table, and sell as many as he and his willing relatives can make. Cause if you have to start hiring people, you have opened up an entirely different can of worms.

Have a nice day!

I would suggest you do a little research yourself first..... lawyers have this radar that spots someone who knows very little and if you are armed with a certain amount of info, then they tend NOT to blind you with BS...

So, here are a few link for the UK Patent Office.. the processes are almost the same and if you require a worldwide patent, its good to know there are other organisations in other countries that can and will do the same type of thing.

so try out these links see if they help you..

http://www.patentmyidea.org/patenting/uk-patent-office.php

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-apply.pdf

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/patent.htm

Just copy and paste these links into your address bar.

One more thing.. in the UK where I live, the UK Patents Office is only 5 minutes from me, and when they moved from London to South Wales, they had an open day, showing the local residents how they work etc... the boss of the Patents office said one thing that has always stuck with me..

"If you are thinking of inventing something..Don't,..chances are its already been invented so check with us (the Patent Office) first, do your research with us, get all the tech info you can which we can supply, and make the invention better, then it becomes yours".

So research your invention, see if there is a patent for something similar or the same, and study the patent, then modify, then reapply for a patent.

That's what a patent lawyer would do first and charge you a small fortune for.

To get a wider (than just UK ) coverage, try the European Patent Office:

http://www.epo.org/

I used to use EPO, USPTO and occasionally the Japanese Patent Office...with those three you cover most of the industrial world. When looking into coverage by state (nation), if you get that far, think about whether you'll be able to detect infringement in that state and whether you'd do anything about it if you did.

Very good advice so far. Got me thinking a bit.... please bear with me.

Is your invention so unique that others will jump to buy samples and copy? Sorry to be blunt here, but as a person having a few patents to my name (courtesy of my company), i don't think my ideas were earthshaking...

If your answer is YES, it is unique and will be copied, you have to go for a patent.

If you think no, while it is a good innovation, it is unlikely that someone will retool and restructure their manufacturing just for this, then don't patent, just produce or sell the idea to good buyer. Maybe that buyer will patent at his cost.

the best example of NOT applying for a patent is the guy who invented the spread sheet.

He showed it to the guy who now owns and run Excel, he patented the spread sheet, and made millions!

I work in pharmaceuticals and we say 'a patent is a bribe to get the chemist to start talking about his invention'. And it is true, it is the what you earn for displaying to the world something novel that might help them, else you hold your breath with the idea inside you for always!

:)

I would like to thank all the members that have responded. I certainly am in a far better position to precede that I was 24 hours ago, thanks to the information provided. A professional pilot friend of mine who is encouraging this endeavor reminded me of a long forgotten idea I had for the doughnut shop coffee lid.

Years before they became popular, I thought about making the product. He told me that every time he pushes the flap on a coffee lid he thinks of me.

I would hate to think that I missed the boat twice, actually many more times than that. I'm sure many members of have the same experience. Thanks again for all the advice

I only have one comment to add to the excellent GA's above. Make sure you get a Design Patent AND a Utility Patent. Design Patent only protects the current design and it can be changed. The Utility Patent protects the "use" or how it works and for what purpose. Most Patent firms will only get you the Design Patent unless you specifically ask for the Utility Patent with it.

The firm: Make sure you find a firm that is listed on the USPTO office website. The PTO webiste for patents can be viewed here and has a lot of information for you.

From my experience (I could no longer pay the local firm I was using for my patents), it costs around $10-15k US for each patent. The companies do a search of the current patents to ensure your patent doesn't infringe on another.

Also, I started with Davison & Associates (I think their name changed). I stopped after the initial investment of $300. A couple years later, I was notified for a class action lawsuit against them. I got my money back plus interest after the lawsuit was settled. Lesson learned! Don't use any patent company that advertises on tv or the net. The lawsuit is listed on the PTO website.

I'm sorry - this is nonsense. First, if you go to a legitimate patent firm, among the first things you will talk about is what you want to protect. Second, most of the time design patents are useless - they only help if, indeed, you have given the invention a specific appearance. Getting around a design patent is usually trivial. Third, the USPTO website does not list firms - only agents and attorneys who have passed the federal patent bar, and are thereby able to represent others in their efforts to gain patent protection. Note that regular attorneys cannot represent you in getting a patent - only people like me. Fourth, unfortunately there are a lot of bastards out there. There is a HUGE difference between an "Invention Company" (or patent company) and a law firm or sole practitioner. I am glad you got your money back. Finally, while the price you list is indeed about right for a patent attorney in a New York skyscraper where the partners have balconies, a more common price would be about half that, with an initial step of a search and a provisional at around $5-700. That is, if you are working with someone who is actually on your side, rather than after your wallet!

Welcome to CR4! and ga for the accurate, perpetually sought after info.

That is not nonsense. That is what I went through with the Firm that I had chosen. The Firm (not mentioning name) had hired a few of the agents and attorneys listed on the USPTO website. That is how I found them. They also had mechanical engineers, marketers, and researchers. I brought my idea to them. Their engineers finished the design (I didn't have all of the details worked out before going in) and the researchers found all of the patents that could be created out of the design. The attorneys and agents completed the patent application. The marketing portion of the firm had the materials ready to be proposed to A.R.E. (It was a new design for a tonneau cover for a truck). I still have the packet at home (minus the full application and full design details because I didn't pay the rest of the money for it which was $15k). It was going to have 3 patents for different parts of the system. The other parts were to be marketed to some other companies that they had found. To this day, they are still held by the confidentiality clause of the contract.

There is a good bit of irony that the "targeted ads" in my browser as I read this thread are advertising links to invention assistance....

<<<<<<<<--- DON'T USE THESE GUYS

OR THESE--- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

OR THOSE DOWN THERE!

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

thats me with the ga. btw

as much as we have talked of patents on this site, I found your post insightful and helpful.

Chris

GA

One other free piece of advice. Listen to your patent professional when deciding what, and how, to disclose information in your patent.

I had numerous discussion with mine about the fact that I wanted to describe things in more detail than necessary.

Very good point!

On times, in UK/Europe, the filing fee covers the first 3 years and then there's an annual charge up to 20 years. Missing one causes the patent to lapse.

2 - 3 years to grant is about right.

Patenting an idea is a tricky business that may give you a certain protection in your country and some other that signed an international agreement about 100 years ago. Remember that if the technology that is needed to produce your invention it is not very high, you can bet that it will be "cloned" in China within weeks. In your place, I would look for a company capable of mass producing this device, make a fair agreement, participate in the development... and enjoy the ride: remember that it is better to get a 5% of 10 bucks rather than having 100% of nothing!

Pick up a copy of Patent it Yourself by David Pressman. The author is a patent attorney who discusses every aspect of the process starting with how to determine if you should even bother. It is an excellent book, very informative, and well worth reading.

When I was younger I got interested in patents, I held one patent. Some of the lessons learnt along the way are, yes you need a patent attorney, but not for a provisional, with examination of the wording of patents you should be able to do your own, at a reduced cost. I once did a final patent, first up without registering a provisional first, and then found that I could not change any of the claims? But you can update your claims if you first register a provisional?

A fact not raised in the posts is that a provisional patent gives you world wide protection and can be updated when you register your final patent, modifications can be included, but a final patent is only for that country for which you apply for, and to cover other countries comes at a cost.

I once did the drawings for a friend, of an idea he had, and which he patented, it was successful in Australia but because he had not coved other countries (India), it was manufactured and sold world wide by them.

Hope you are successful.

Regards JD.

First of all mere ideas are not patentable.

If you have made and seen your device workable, don't disclose to any one.

Now based on your topic, name of the device, with a generalized functional key word entry go for google search by way of putting in all key words related to your device or technology area.

Also conduct patent search on published documents preferably international/ USPTO/ WIPO/ EPO related to your area as well as specialization.

You will just wonder about the vastness of inventions unique in various perspectives and conclude upon the fact if yours is novel,having a difference from that of other[inventiveness] as well as industrially applicable.

Patent procedures and guidelines you can find from your country patent office publications as regard to the format, procedures. contents, claims writing etc.

Best thing is to go for a provisional filing, go to a patent agent/attorney who will do the professional drafting for you. In case it is worth international a professional drafting by expert attorney is essential.

If you are sure it is worth patenting, keep your lips closed.

I'm checking out, now. I have no more to add, except to say that having that first patent awarded to me was a big deal in my life.

With that, I became able to call myself a bona fide inventor.

Good Luck!

From Experience:

A trademark does not give patent protection.Neither does a copyright. All are 3 separate entities, designed for different purposes. Do not be mislead by the uninformed or inexperienced. I have all 3, so I have been there,done that.

In the USA, a drawing is not required; a high resolution image can be substituted with bullets inserted to number items that will later be referenced in the claims section of the patent.

The wording and content of the claims is the meat of the patent. Try to imagine every modification to the machine, and list it as a "possible incarnation" or improvement.

Of course, you can't think of EVERYTHING, but give it your best effort, and have your lawyer try to "bullet proof" the claims.Be difficult.Reject it a couple of times because of insufficient protection, and let him lick his calf over a bit. Lawyers think better when they are angry.

As stated elsewhere, go to your local yellow pages, and ask for references, or do a patent search on line, by attorney name.This will tell you if the guy is legit.

If he has been the attorney for several patents, he is probably on the up-and-up.

Good Luck!

I've been a little busy the last day are so however I have been following the thread. As usual there's been a lot of good information posted. If I replied to every useful post I'd spend the next two days typing. So thanks again guys.