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Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/08/2011 7:42 PM

The situation:

I service a shredder that feeds a pulper. It shreds debris and feeds the slurry to a pump located aprox. 8 feet away. The drive motor is 3 phase, 208V. The shredder and pump use the same supply source from a 30 amp breaker mounted in the control panel. When the shredder rotation is correct, it feeds the pump. When rotation is incorrect the pump is starved and and it loses suction.

The problem:

The shredder has "magically" reversed rotation twice in the past month. However the pump has not. I noted that the shredder was not running in the correct rotation (pump was correct) and switched two leads to correct the rotation. But rotation did not change. It would not be the first time that I became distracted and put the leads back in the same placement. So I swapped them again and the shredder rotation was correct.

Is there any way that the motor can "magically" change rotation without changing lead positions ? Or not reverse when lead positions are changed? The unit is a couple of months old. I am thinking of switching contactors between the shredder and pump just to see if the pump magically reverses rotation, a good place to start I figure. As far as I can determine no in house maintenance folk have even opened the control panel. Any input would be appreciated and more information can be provided if requested.

I Thank you all in advance.

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#1

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/08/2011 8:32 PM

That's a wild one Dammit................good name. I don't know the answer, but I posted so I can be subscribed.

Welcome aboard. Just don't be screaming personal attack when people say, 'I already told you once Dammit, you're just not listening.'

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#8
In reply to #1

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:05 AM

It is also a new one for me... and I have been doing this a week or six.. I will let you and all know when we get it resolved.....

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#2

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/08/2011 9:46 PM

Are separate 3ph motors fitted to both the shredder and the pump?

I wonder if it is simply the contactor not closing all three phases simultaneously allowing the motor to reverse direction in certain circumstances, such as if the shaft is also mechanically forced to rotate the wrong way.

I think it is possible, or perhaps I am getting confused with something else.

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:08 AM

My thoughts as well. Will not be able to return to the location until Tuesday. Will swap contactors and re-terminate wiring at the motor at that time ( just in case there is a poor connection at the motor ) .

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#3

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/09/2011 12:16 AM

Some shredders have an auto-reverse feature that runs the shredder backward for a moment in case it jams. Does your control panel have a reversing starter in it for the shredder motor?

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:11 AM

No reversing contactor in this situation. Good thought though..

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#4

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/09/2011 3:10 AM

Have a close look at the contacts, connections, etc. for the shredder. A lightly loaded motor can start on just two phases, then it a 50/50 chance as to which way it goes. The overloads should protect against this assuming they are fitted.

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#11
In reply to #4

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:12 AM

On my list to check on Tuesday.... Thank You..

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#5

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/09/2011 3:15 AM

I remember my old foot-operated sewing machine, where an oscillation movement at foot board is converted in to rotary movement of a large wheel which then drive the machine wheel with a belt. The conversion mechanism from oscillation to rotary movement consists of a ball joint, a connecting rod and a crank. For running the sewing machine in forward direction, we have to move the machine wheel a little with hand and then foot pressure will work in that direction. But if we do not move the machine wheel by hand, then machine may move in any direction depending upon the angular position of crank before starting.

So, check whether you have similar mechanism with shredder. If yes, then it's no more a magic, just you have to check crank angle before starting.

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#12
In reply to #5

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:18 AM

Thank you for your response. The shredder is static until power is applied. I do see where you were headed. I will recall that for future reference.This unit is direct drive to the motor.

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#6

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/09/2011 4:46 AM

starter relay problem?

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#13
In reply to #6

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:33 AM

Straight shot from contactor. Relay would just spank the contactor coil. Gives me the thought to run an OHMS check on that coil. I have had some slow movers with poor latching due to a couple or few hundred more windings on the coil. I was in the coil manufacturing business once upon a time... we used to test 10 of every 100 that we made....if all 10 passed, the 100 passed. If one in 10 failed, they all failed...That was the routine back 30 years or so ago. Thank you for reminding me that Quality Control is only as good as the parameters set by the manufacturer..

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#7

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/09/2011 11:22 PM

Dammit ! You may have something revolutionary here ! An UN-Shredder ! Think of the possibilities ! An UNDO machine ! Awesome

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#15
In reply to #7

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:50 AM

An UN-shredder! An UNDO machine !!!!! The possibilities stagger the mind!!! Kinda' like a " do over " when I was a tadpole... I do like where I have arrived, but I do wonder where I would be had I taken the path to the left in lieu of the path to where I am.... I think that is what you try to teach the folks that are close to you..... " Learn from my mistakes "..... In my case, when they don't, I do have the option to say " I told you so "..

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 1:01 AM

Seriously, though, the problem is very intriguing, since the 3φ supply hasn't been changed by the utility since the pump is running ok. i am looking forward to your findings ....

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 1:14 AM

I look forward to the resolution as well.. I am like a dog chewing on a bone with a problem that I cannot solve.. I will not resolve the problem WE will! CR4 is an extreme resource.... I thank you and everyone in Advance for the assistance...

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#21
In reply to #7

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 5:12 AM

Dammit, I agree. Huge potential here. Do NOT change anything..... Put it on Ebay immediately

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#14

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:43 AM

There is one possibility; very high harmonics on power line. Check for power line harmonics using Fluke-434 or similar instrument.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 12:58 AM

I am only semi-familiar with harmonics.. Both the pump and shredder are fed by the same breaker. Can one unit be affected and the other one not due to harmonics ??( Assuming that harmonics are only related to the source of power ) If so, what would be my cure ??

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#19
In reply to #16

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 3:17 AM

VFDs, DC Thyristor Drives, High Power Rectifiers, etc generate Harmonic currents. More than 30% harmonic currents do create problems for smaller loads. 3rd, 5th, 7th harmonics try to rotate the motors in reverse direction. hence once get checked all power lines in your plant. One symptom to identify harmonics is "normal PF correction capacitors" tend fail frequently.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/10/2011 4:50 AM

GA. Some thing different, could not be thought of by others.

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#23
In reply to #16

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/11/2011 11:28 PM

Yes. Only one load may effect. First do confirm whether harmonics are present on your power lines or not. Solution depends on analyser data; what harmonics are present, ITHD, VTHD values, dominant harmonic numbers, etc.

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#22

Re: Shredder "Magically" Reverses Rotation, Why?

09/11/2011 9:04 PM

I am just subscribing to hear the solution, it is intriguing!

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