Lithium Or Ni-Cad?

I can tell you right now the lithiums don't do well in cool/cold weather if thats going to be an issue.

Brand wise thats up to you being most of them all use the same or similar battery cells in there battery packs so one wont necessarily outlast the other in terms of battery service life.

Run time is a factor of voltage and amp hour ratings so the more of either helps.

40F is a bitter Winter day down here........ So I do not think cold is problem.

What is AMP hour rating?

Lithium - longer life with less problems.

A good battery blog http://thisweekinbatteries.blogspot.com/2011/03/to-be-or-not-to-be-green-that-is.html

Amp hour rating is the total amount of charge that can be stored in a battery. Unfortunately there are so many additional factors (DC motor design, gear reduction, rotation inertia, speed control electronics) that it is difficult to make a real quantitative assessment that a D drill with a 4 AH battery will last longer between charges than an R drill with a 3.5 AH battery.

I think that you will do better though with a Lithium Ion battery system than a Ni-Cad due to the charge/discharge characteristics. Lithium Ion batteries have a higher energy density than Ni-Cad batteries. Ni-Cad batteries should be drained of at least half of their charge before recharging to maximize their lifetime. In contrast Li-Ion will not suffer from any discharge memory problems by being constantly recharged. To give Ni_Cad their due respect, a Ni_Cad battery will retain more of its total charge while being stored.

I have to disagree. Lithium batteries are far, far better at charge retention in the real world. Ni-Cd batteries tend to self-discharge themselves in about a month on the shelf, whilst Lithium should be charged every 6 months, whether they need it or not.

Yes, a brand new NiCd cell might hold charge very well for a long time, but usually in a battery pack there will be at least one cell that lets the side down. Further, you can't tell so easily! The DVM will tell you the NiCd is fine, but put it under load for a few seconds and the voltage will sag, which, if driving a powertool, is useless. Lithium doesn't have this issue.

To answer the OP, I have a Dewalt and a Ryobi lithium battery pack, and two NiCd Ryobi batteries. I've just used the single Dewalt battery for a few hours today, same as yesterday, and it is fine. It's the 2Ahr 18V one. The Ryobi, I tend to use in the various other tools I have (all 1+ system) rather than the drill (which isn't as good as the Dewalt and is simply a back-up) and the new Lithium 1.4Ah battery is brilliant. It stays charged, unlike the NiCds, and runs for far longer even than a fresh NiCd charge, because it keeps going until it stops, rather than winding rapidly down from it's peak to useless.

I also have a sideline to my locksmithing business, changing out the batteries in people's locksmithing tools, and I have made a small fortune adding lithium batteries to replace heavier, less useful (but far cheaper) NiCd batteries in tools. From extensive reviews, and personal experience, I can tell you that while a single freezing night in the van often kills a NiCd until recharged, the lithiums I use are just fine for weeks.

Thank you. That pretty much seals the deal on Lithium power tools.

I like Makita tools anyway and theirs seems to be well written about.

I have been using my 18v Lithium Makita's for the past four years. I can tell you Makita makes a great tool and the lithium battery is great... I use these tools almost everyday with three batteries in rotation. It takes less than 30 minutes for a charge. The only time I out-cycle my batteries is if I am boring 2.5" holes continuously.

All of Makita's 18v tool selection is great; and, to my amazement, even the little vacuum (I got it free)works well. Trim saw, sawzall, angle grinder, heavy-duty drill, medium-duty drill, and impact driver are all indispensable to me. The only drawback is the price of the batteries. I have burned through three (in 4 years of nearly everyday use) and they run $70-$100/each for the 3.0 Ah.

In fact, today I bought another battery (to make 4 in rotation) and another charger for a reasonable price. Also, the bare tool price (no battery) is very reasonable.

Also check out independent online reviews of cordless drills for side-by-side comparisons. A simple internet search should find these.

.... I found a 2008 survey on 10 drills . The Makita 18V BHP454 had the Best Overall for the survey. Amp-Hour: 3.0

Is there any way I can use just a Lithium battery pack with my Hitachi 3/8" 18v cordless or does a Ni-cad have to be used if that is what it came with?

Electrically it is possible if you can get identical voltages. However, this will not be practical because the charger must be different. Especially if you wish to quick charge. Besides, I expect that the major expense will be the battery and charger anyway. You might as well get the matching drill with them.

I use only Makita cordless tools. A friend of mine was a shower door installer, and averaged 12 installs per day. He tried a lot of different brands and finally settled on Makita.

If the fit is correct, any Lithium-Ion battery will work in place of a Ni-Cad, the tool does not care.

Voltages are different between battery types. That means charging voltage needs to be different.

I do like Makita tools but a number of different brands mentioned here are all first class.

And it isn't just charging voltages either Russ, the whole charging current/voltage profile can be different. in the case of almost all lithium ion chemistries, the internal resistance is so low that you have to limit the charging current depending on the battery voltage to prevent overheating/fires. There is a voltage threshold in the charging curve that the charging circuit must detect and quickly reduce the charging current to prevent overcharging as well. many cell manufacturers demand that you supply a prototype charging circuit to them for testing before they will agree to sell you battery packs to limit their liability because the charging profile is so complex and touchy.

Yes, of course the voltage needs to be the same.

Many chargers these days are capable of charging batteries from the older 7.2V up to the 18v models, eliminating the guesswork or worry.

Let us know what you blow up next!

Unless one knows what they are doing it is best by far to use the correct charger for the correct battery. As was pointed out - the charging profiles for different types of batteries are different.

Of course if one wishes to create a small disaster or to ruin their battery I suppose it doesn't make much difference.

Are you for real? Try this.

That little google button on your computer might just make you seem smarter if you use it before you reply.

Absolutely correct.

I know this is an old thread now, but his point is a vital safety point. NEVER EVER use the wrong voltage lithium battery charger (or one unknown to you) for charging a (random or known) lithium battery.

Even the best chargers for lithium batteries CANNOT tell the difference between a "topping up" of a 4 cell pack (4.0*4 = 16.0V) and a "flat" 5 cell pack (3.2V * 5 = 16V). Without a clever connector or a human, something is very likely to go wrong.

The poster who linked to the DeWalt chargers is being disingenuous, because obviously DeWalt batteries and chargers are designed to work together. Slapping a different physical size or shape of battery into it will give out a different charge, because it wasn't designed for it.

Don't believe me? Fine. It's your house that'll burn down. Mine's detached.

Buy and American // and non Union. That way it will cost you less, and we can keep more jobs here.

I'd love to buy American....problem is all I see on any of these tools is Made in China.

Check out the DeWalt NANO-lithium batterys.High capacity,constant current available for full length of charge, and very fast recharge.Long shelf life without losing charge.A contractor's dream for intensive hard reliable use.The nano battery will even retrofit some of their older tools.

That's what my Dewalt has, and it's pretty incredible performance, even by lithium battery standards.

I was doing demo's at a trade show for 3 hours Saturday, and I didn't even need to recharge the single battery. Same on Sunday.

Next time, I'll buy another Dewalt.

I own 4 Milwaukee drills that had NiCADs when new. Changed to NiMH with charger and got a much quicker recharge, longer lasting charge whilst stored and more power over the years. i.e. the NiCADs deliver less power for a shorter time when they get old.

I have killed the motors in 2 of my 36v NiMH BOSCH drills.

I use MAKITA almost exclusively in my 240v tools but their battery tools didn't compare with the MILWAUKEE and BOSCH battery tools i use. It may be different now.

regards,

Jim

I understand from Venkat at TWB (the link I posted) that one trick for Lithium batteries is to not keep them on charge when fully charged and never let them go empty - either condition is not good for long life - floating in between 20% and fully charged is best.

Very important point. I got a super cheep Li ion drill but the unit does not have a cutoff to keep from over draining the battery. I fully charged the unit before use and then used it for a large project and it worked great most of the day. By the end of the day it was running very low but I only had a little more to go and ran the battery all the way down. I killed the battery pack on the first use! It has never held a charge worth a dam since.

That must have been a very cheap drill!

I've got 3 that I used for years that were 18V and cheaper than the batteries alone should have been (£50 each!) and they had a proper cut-out. Without it, as you say, it'll destroy the less strong cells completely first time out.

Buy a single Dewalt, and it'll last a lot longer. I've not looked back!

Yes, I got the 18V drill with battery for $24. Unit does not even have a manufacture name on it. Maybe when I have some time I will open it up and put in a cutout ckt. I found this place http://batteryrefill.com/ They have done wonders for my OLD laptop.

Two Bosch cordless drills are in use here (usual discalimer). After eight years the battery on one of them needed replacement. Given that is had been used to completely install the second-fix of a house extension, it represents good value.

Get a "RIDGID" tool AND battery guarnteed for LIFE.

oilcan13

QUESTION:

With my old DeWalt Ni-Cad, I would drain the batteries down to almost nothing and then snap them into a flashlight attachment ( ON) so as to fully drain them. This seemed to gaurantee me a full charge and defeat any 'memory'.

2 years later, the batteries have 15 minutes of work life on screw heads.

I do not use them a lot, just for the ongoing house repairs.

SO, NOW.....what would I do to prolong the Lithium battery packs?????

Maintain the charge between 20% and less than fully charged - Venkat goes over that though you would have to search for the right post.

He has a good sense of humor so most of his posts are interesting.

Don't deliberately fully discharge a Li-Ion battery. But if this happens on a job, don't worry about it. Other than that, just use the battery operated tool as you normally would.

.....Got a friend with a glass eye and rippled(scarred) left cheek from doing this exact thing.

My personal choice would be the Litium Ion. Even with occaisional use (as a homeowner) I've had very poor lifespan on nicad packs. To the point a number of years ago I swore I'd never buy another.

Ryobi is going to be the cheapest but lowest quality of the three brands you named specifically. I consider Dewalt the best but you pay a premium for that. Is this used for a jobsite....or a homeowner? For a homeowner the cheaper brands can make more sense, but if you use them heavily on a daily basis ....pay for the quality ones.

Netmaker, I am in agreement with everyone about the appropriateness of LiIon batteries for this application, something to consider as well, but has not been discussed is weight of the tool. NiCad/NiMH (they can use the same chargers and are basically interchangeable.) weigh a lot more than LiIon batteries and therefore you are not as fatigued at the end of the day. I have a Ryobi ONE+ set that interchange batteries and they have both NiMH and Lithium batteries that interchange (the LiIon charger will charge the older NiMH/NiCad cells but not the other way around.) but the hand saw is a POS. but the drill and the rest are pretty decent. One advantage of chosing a common name brand is that extra batteries and chargers and such are readily available so you can always have another battery or two being charged while you are working with one. LiIon's charge very quickly (hour or two) whereas NiCad/NiMH don't (6-8 hours for full charge). and LiIon cells hold their charge longer before self-discharging.

Both NiMH battery tools i have (Bosch and Milwaukee ) have a rapid charge of about 30mins. The Bosch tools came with the correct charger but the Milwaukees were older and i had to buy a new charger for their NiMH batteries as the NiCd charger wouldn't do it.

I don't have any LiIon battery tools but reading these posts they sound good. The price for tools and replacement batteries in OZ seems to be much higher than on 'tother side of the world. The Bosch 36v hammer drill with spare battery and a charger is $A580 about $US610.

cheers,

Jim

it is possible to rapid charge NiMH batteries but at the expense of shortening their life. You can't rapid charge NiCad's. Chargers that can handle both (and many can, although you occasionally run across one that can't.) USUALLY can detect which type it is charging and compensate. you can't use a NiMH rapid charger for NiCad's usually.

Batteries are a very interesting topic with each type being very different than others.

Most people seem to think of them as something you grab what ever off the shelf and drop it into the consumer without bothering to think. I ruined a camera that way one time - got lucky and Kodak replaced it free of charge.

I have a whole bunch of Ryobi One+ 18 VDC tools and run only Lithium batteries. Besides, they're cheap as hell and not overpriced like other brands. I've never had any trouble with any of them, but then again, I'm not a Contractor and only use them around the house doing repairs and the like. My Ryobi battery charger will charge both Lithium ion and NiCad batteries. I don't use the Nicad batteries anymore as they're useless and don't hold a charge for any length of time.

Just adding my 2 Cents worth, and that doesn't go far these days!

I had to return a " ni-cad high voltage Black and Decker" weedeater because it discharged in about 15 minutes. A small lithium battery model from DR does a lot more work overall, and lasts about as long as I do. Also costs less.

Will never go ni-cad again.

One thing that hasn't been touched on is frequency of use. If you are a contractor who constantly uses these tools, buying a good quality tool thats light and quick to recharge makes sense. If you are a home owner who uses one every 6 months, you are better off with a corded drill. By the time you need the cordless again the batteries will be pooched and replacing a pair of batteries is about the same cost as a new drill.

I do NOT use the drill every day but it is used at least once every week.

I screw in bolts and unscrew.....some lag bolts and some machined parts assembly.

But NO, not a contractor type use.

No comparison. Lithium is the way to go. Holds a charge better when not used, far better power-to-weight ratio.

I have a Milwaukee right angle drill that just keeps going and going on a charge, and which has nice features like a chuck that locks when not running so you can tighten it really well. Dewalt is pretty good too.

anything with a cord will outlast & out preform cordless junk

Some corded tools will not outlast a bottle of milk left out in the sun! Whilst some battery powered tools will. It is fair to say that that a good corded tool will cost a lot less than a good battery tool and will always go, even if left in the cupboard for a long time.

You are missing the point entirely. I (we) use cordless because we are sometimes in areas where a long cord is not feasible or where electricty is NOT available.

On a remote location site, there is NO electricty and a corded tool is worthless.

Also, it is much easier to pick up a cordless drill and screw or unscrew something

than it is to hunt down an extention cord, hook it up and then drag it to where you need.

Both have their benefits.

Thank you for the comments.

Any one knows what would be the difference in lasting power between an 18V and 24V if you were doing the same task, ( over and over and over) For example: 2"dry wall screws in , 3/4" soft pine?

20% longer bewteen charges?

30%?

???

typically only difference will be available torque I would expect.

I think the only gain is torque; and you get less life cycles (total charges) from the higher voltage battery.

I'm curious about why this would be the case. Could you explain it? I would have thought lower overall work time per charge. (assuming equal sized battery packs)

I came across this fact when looking to upgrade a cordless drill quite a few years ago. This was for Ni-Cad's and I'm not sure it applies to Lithium. As I understood it, the battery cells in a higher voltage battery are just rearranged in parallel/series to accomplish the different voltages. With the higher voltage you are discharging a smaller reservoir at a higher potential/ with the lower voltage you discharging a larger reservoir at a lower potential.

My Bosch 36v drills don't last any longer than the 18v Milwaukees. Both brands have 80nm torque so i guess it's down to the gearing. I haven't measured the output speeds of them to see if this is so.

Also it depends on the brand/quality of the batteries. A cheap 18v battery drill i bought to see if they were any good was worse than useless. No torque, a very short run time and a short life span.

So i can say that when comparing drills it isn't like comparing apples with apples but then again i guess it is. If you compare different varieties at different levels of ripeness, oh crikey, you get the picture

Yes. Typically the 24V units have greater watt-hour capacity (same AH capacity but higher voltage). Assuming both units have torque regulation, the power used per screw is the same for each, so the one with the higher Wh capacity will drive more screws.

However there are loads of exceptions. You have to know both the voltage and Ah rating to know the Wh ratings.

If you go to the manufacturer sites you can find number of screws per charge, etc.

Re your earlier question, there is little to do to prolong the life of LI batteries, because most have good chargers and good drain limiting circuits. You cannot fully drain an LI battery in any well-designed electric tool, you can't overcharge it, etc. etc.

Most LI tool batteries are series, not series parallel, by the way.

".........you get less life cycles (total charges) from the higher voltage battery."

This is true? Good to know that.

You won't wear out any of the tools.

For the money, Ryobi's new Lithium batteries with their new (lime green) smart charger.

I have a truckload of Ryobi battery tools and none of them have ever quit, just the old style Ni-Cad batteries died after a year or two of constant daily use.

I haven't killed a Lithium battery yet.