Innovative Design

I doubt that any informed persons will be willing to discuss this, but all sorts of uninformed persons may pop out of the woodwork. Sorry.

You may wish to take a look at posting #37 of our 09/23 "Caption This" thread http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/17654/Caption-This-for-09-23-11#comment777452. Your magnetic system and the solar system shown may have some things in common.

I seem to have popped out of the woodwork. I hope this doesn't cause Tornado to think that I am an uninformed person.

The link went to the whole thread. I didn't find a pertinent comment (including #37)showing an alleged analogy between solar energy and magnetism, but I might have missed it.

The link went to a picture of light bulbs over solar panels that charged the battery to power the light bulbs that produced the power to run the car and charge the light bulbs.

FREE ENERGY

Sorry, it doesn't seem funny if it has to be explained.

The solar panel drawing is an innovative design using light to get free energy.

The OP wants has an innovative design that uses magnetism to get free energy.

OK, maybe I should have stayed in the woodwork.

Perhaps I should have read #2 as ironic rather than straight--my apologies.

Common mistake. I also use the "Caption This" threads as a serious resource for design engineering.

Bruce

You'll need to ignore any physics laws that may interfere with your quest.

I don't think you will find many takers for this commonly asked question.

Best you study magnet theory a little more first to understand why a 'free' energy magnet generator is not possible (hint, permanent magnets aren't and electromagnets can't).

Additionally also see the numerous previous threads on CR4 regarding impractical over-unity and free energy generators using all forms of magnets and the associated explanations regarding magnet theory, over-unity, physics, energy conservation, etc).

Have you considered working with some other form of generation? Wind, wave, geothermal, etc. Plenty of opportunity here.

Even hydroelectric, solar, and wind energy are not "free"; from the selling price one must subtract operating costs such as personnel and maintenance, as well as amortization costs for the capital outlay. That can still be profitable, but not "free."

Unfortunately, this regularly confuses people who don't understand economics, or even simple arithmetic. (Much less physics and thermodynamics.)

If you are attending a university to get your degrees in Mechanical and Environmental Engineering, they must have a Physics Department, too. (If not, there must be a university somewhere near you that has a Physics Department.)

Go talk to the Physics Department secretary and ask which professor teaches introductory E&M (electricity and magnetism). Make an appointment to meet with that professor. Tell him you are a mechanical engineering student and need some advice on building a motor that uses magnetism. If he is patient, he might explain why your concept won't work.

What is the actual energy source for this hard-to-see diagram?

A working model might be nice; but even though You-Tube is untrustworthy, at least it might be a start.

Works like one of those flashlights you shake. Coil around the slider housing.

Momentum of big magnet (on ceramic bearing roller) flips the smaller one as it bounces back and forth off of the polybutadiene (90%+ momentum retention) bumpers (which aren't labeled).

The rare earth magnets won't wear down because the fields are continually reversed.

The momentum (and consequent weight) necessary of the big sliding magnet needs only to be larger than the shear force needed to flip the smaller magnets.

Take any two magnets, hook them together +- and try to pull them directly apart. Hard to do...now slide them apart...about 1/10th the force is all that's required when they are in direct contact, less if they are slightly seperated.

Math easy to do, simple physics, no magic. Needs a resistor on capacitor circuit to keep coil from slowing down the big magnet too much. Balancing act for sure.

In that case, the energy comes from the shaking (mechanical forces), not from the magnets. Unfortunately, this confuses uninformed persons.

No, you don't shake it, you just kick start the big magnet hard enough to flip the other two. It will then reach a 'strokes per minute' speed where the resistance from the coil generating it's own magnetic field (controlled by a resistor) keeps it from running away.

Momentum is your energy generator. When you shake one of those flashlights all you are creating is movement of the sliding part. It could also be done with compressed air, flowing water, wind, tide, whatever ouside reversible energy source available.

Here it is the attraction/repulsion of the three magnets. Once you start it the momentum of the larger magnet overcomes the the shear strength of the two attracting poles.

A real true to life perpetual motion machine!

So, you've built one? I'm guessing no.

Haven't built it yet but I'm trying to talk an out of work GM drive train engineer into working on it.

He can't seem to find a reason it shouldn't work tho ...theoretically.

I don't like the impact aspect I designed to flip the smaller magnets. Cam/gearing would be better so the flip is fast and smooth.

Anyone know if oval gears would make them flip quickly?

The only reason a shake flashlight works is because you are putting energy into it. You have to shake it every so often or the light will dim and finally go out.

If you are saying that this contraption will continue forever once you get it going, you are wrong. It won't.

Why not? I need specifics so I can fix the problem...glittering generalities only bounce off the little mirrors on the disco ball of my mind.

That will not work, no matter what you or anyone else does.

1. Conservation of energy.
2. Misc. friction and other losses.

Take a physics class. Take it again if necessary.

You are discounting the accelerative forces on the large moving magnet created by the two (4) magnetic fields created by the reversal of the smaller magnets.

(+)(-) on one end pulling (accelerating the heavier magnet) & (-)(-) on the other end pushing (accelerating) the larger magnet.

The energy to flip the two magnets is reduced by the fact that the two smaller magnets are connected to each other and held in place by the detent during the phase of the larger magnet and when released, the reversal of the poles of the small magnet that was (-)(-) would help offset the existing attraction of the other small magnet that was in the (+)(-) position.

The earth is a slightly oblate spheroid. Did you know that?

Yes, and I've always believed it was the cause of a slower pace of life in the equatorial regions being that time slows down the faster you go...

Just checking.

Was ammused by the star war pic but really overwhelmed by that chick there wearing that shirt, left.

Then build it, watch it fail to work, and send us a report.

Pessimism of the Intellect, Optimism of the Will

Pessimism of the Intellect means, simply, be a scientist: see the world as it really is, not as you might like it to be. Try to identify and, if necessary, overcome hidden biases or prior assumptions. Always ask yourself: What assumption am I making? What if it is incorrect? How do I know what I know?

Optimism of the Will means, have the courage to attempt difficult things. Sometimes, Will can overcome the odds.

If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry. --- A Farewell to Arms, Ernest Hemingway

Plagiarized from the profile of... Steve Hsu Professor of physics at the University of Oregon.

I see...

This device will be fueled by self-affirmations and prayers. If natural law doesn't work, resort to supernatural.

"Optimism of the Will means, have the courage to attempt difficult things. Sometimes, Will can overcome the odds."

Inspirational thought. It truly is.

What are the odds Steve Hsu understands thermodynamics?

Hey, what has become of John Malise?

Vanished aforethought?

I was wondering where John went too, he needs to take a couple of punches. :)

By the way my first name if Will and I'm semi-retired and working now and then as a trim carpenter, which may explain a lot. :)

In my youth, more than half a lifetime ago, I gave up on bio-chemical research after 5 1/2 years because every time we proposed something for a project, the military was the first to step up with the funds and was only interested in making a weapon out of it.

In research you only deal with what everyone else missed, didn't think was important, or thought was unlikely or impossible.

I scraped by in my third year physical chemistry class taught by the head of the department only because I answered the extra credit question on the final exam. He had been putting it on his final exams for 39 years and no one ever got it right until I looked at it and thought "Freebee!" It was a complex formula to be solved involving deflection of neutrons by intense magnetic fields. I had been doing a lot of reading about solar bombardment for a project studying why some viruse's outer shells are more stable than others. That was in 1971...obviously the answer was 'Zero'. deflection'.

But, there's is always an exception-who says you are wrong, Yes, you're idea works-like that of a pendulum clock, the only thing you need is a pendulum with a mass of Jupiter to gain a seemingly perpetual potential and advantage.

How Faraday Flashlights Work

You do know that the magnet doesn't move continuously, right? That animation should also show the person shaking the flashlight to make the magnet slide back and forth. When they stop shaking the flashlight, the magnet stops moving.

I hate to be a spoiler, but you have posted an image that claims COPYRIGHT as a part of the image. When it is removed, it will not be because admin has singled you out as one to persecute.... just don't post copyrighted stuff.

The laws of conservation of energy apply to everything in the universe except gravity and magnetism...these are still mysteries and open to discussion.

If you are predicating success on the basis of mysteries, that belongs in a religion forum rather than engineering. I don't think anything has yet been found in gravitation or magnetism that violates conservation of energy; and I doubt that any such thing will ever be found. But if you do find it, then (not now) you can prove prior science wrong.

Maybe take another class a time or two....

You are studying for a double masters?

Maybe you skipped some earlier stages like a high school diploma?

You are on a fools errand! Have fun as I suppose it fits.

Yes, that is the way to prove the claim true or false, writing again in different words but the same thought as Tornado above said, in order for your claim to be true it must pass the two criterias

1) 1st law of thermodynamics-conservation of energy, some inventors tangled with this law more often, that say for example Work -W could be converted to Heat-Q and Heat to Work

W=>Q & Q=>W , but in reality, there is about a one way road, which is actually the law below.

2) 2nd Law of thermodynamics

Work could be 100% converted to Heat, but Heat can not be converted to 100% Work without losses.

Should your invention or idea, disagree even only one of the 2 laws, I tell you, its a crap

As a matter of fact most Quantum Physicists-do believe in crap and have crap research, I should say. They just don't realize it, lol.

Why not?

Once you start it, the momentum added to the attraction on one end and the repulsion on the other of the heavy magnet should be more than the force required to flip the two smaller magnets reversing the poles and the direction of the sliding magnet if the gearing is correct.

There would be a detent and a trigger release holding the smaller magnets in position until the large magnet contacted the plungers.

There is increasing momentum as two opposite poles get closer to each other. There is also decreasing momentum as they move away from each other. During this whole cycle, there is something called friction between mechanical parts and air (or whatever hot air gases your contraption is supported surrounded by.

What is entropy?

Ceramic bearings. I know, I need to shave one corner off of the attracting ends of the rotating magnets to modify the magnetic field so that it minimizes the 'moving away momentum loss'. I'm not done ironing out the details quite yet...

Entropy is the measure of stabile random chaos. In any material, more so in gasses and liquids, there is constant random movement of the molecules in relation to each other creating a kind of stable chaotic movement of the molecules amongst each other as a group. Picture the Guiness World Record event for the most Square Dancers Dancing To One Song. Then multiply that times both Boltzman's Constant and the size of the barn.

But entropy is arguably an irrevelant measurement since it is measuring a stable state.

I know, I need to shave one corner off of the attracting ends of the rotating magnets to modify the magnetic field so that it minimizes the 'moving away momentum loss'.

Hilarious! Oh, wait... do you actually believe that will work?

OK. Clever joke! You really had us all going there for awhile! LMAOROFL. Hee hee!

Why there is no heat generated by the random entropic movemet of contained molecules I don't know.

Momentum ≠ energy. Nor does momentum generate any energy beyond what was already put into the moving mass.

True, in the second part but that first 'equation' might be argued against.

p= m * v

But one of Newton's Laws sez:

If both sides of the above equation are multiplied by the quantity t, a new equation results.

So, we find that the speed (V) of the moving magnet (m) is increased relative the amount of time it takes to travel between the gear bumpers multiplied by the combined forces (F) of the three magnets or:

F • t = m • Δ v

This equation would also apply to the loss in momentum that the moving magnet would incur when it impacts the sliding gear system and flips the smaller magnets.

BUT...as speed increases, the velocity loss (delta v) from the flip mechanism impact (F) becomes a smaller and smaller percentage of the momentum of the moving magnet (m) because the time (t) it takes the flip mechanism to operate decreases.

Velocity-Time Graph

I see your point, you're equation works considering only the whole set-up is a close system, assuming you have no frictional losses in your contacting surface neither heat generated on the process. So your machine is perpetual now, ok. Then, say what's the use of your machine now, when it's close(it can not interact with outside system)? Work & Heat both crosses boundary conversely it's not defined when not crossing.

One more, there's no work or energy in perpetuity why? there is no force, why? v= Const

Recalling Energy E=F*d; F=mdv/dt, say when v=const then dv=0 & F=0

What then if you are able to create a perpetual machine, who cares.? just joking

Do you have a schematic diagram perhaps, how your system works? Please provide details.

Is it like the idea of how a pendulum clock works?

"I have designed (only out line diagram) of an engine in which power is generated for each stroke"

As in a double acting internal combustion engine?

The "free energy form magnets" have already been discussed.

"Everything that can be invented, has already been invented"....quoted in 1899 by Charles H. Duell, U.S. Commissioner of Patents. 1899!

That's a patently false statement!

Google = wikipedia Steorn

Regards JD.

Mechanically the same basic idea as this...but suppose they had introduced steam pressure into the piston as well releasing it the appropriate direction helping to drive itself. Piston - Driven backward and forward within the cylinder by steam pressure, producing mechanical motion from steam expansion. Valve - Controls the supply of steam to the cylinders, timing is synchronised by the valve gear connect to the Drivers. Steam locomotives may have slide valves, piston valves or poppet valves.

John must have gone on a walkabout...

I have now modified the gizmo with a second coil/variable resistor so that the momentum pulse going in one direction can made slightly larger than the pulse going in the other direction so it can be used to propel spaceships indefinetly to the ends of the universe.

We're waiting for show-and-tell time, even if only a You-Tube. Good luck.