Literacy Improvement Strategy

I suggest that you contact Richard Dunn. You two seem to be of a like mind. Or maybe kevin12345, the pot head.

Your pitiful respelling of some words, and not others, indicates to me that you are just a juvenile who has given no thought to what you are saying and just want to create chaos or controversy.

Why not quit teaching math too, while we're at it?

Whoz Richard Dunn? A member here? Thanks for the ref, I'll look him up later.

Your response seemz to indicate that you are mistaking my casual minor fonetic adjustments here with actual Nooalf. I woud expect that you woud hav vizited nooalf.com a long time ago and known what youre talking about.

Before you get too far into your campaign to 'fix' English, you really ought to understand how English came to be the way it is. John McWhorter has written a number of books that are both entertaining and informative, which might give you a deeper appreciation of how words and spelling came to be the way they are:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_14?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=john+mcwhorter&sprefix=John+McWhorter

There was a very good PBS series done a number of years ago that also talked about the English language. You can get the series on DVD and there is a companion book worth reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Story-English-Companion-PBS-Television/dp/B001JX2Q3G/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317567435&sr=1-1

And besides, where would Gallagher get his material if it all made sense? Or is it since?

Home.........Comb..........Comb..........Womb.........

Read........reed.......red...........read.......heed........speed...........sped.....dead

I'm very familiar with the history. I read the book that was produced along with the PBS series, The Story of English.

A little Richard Feynman story:

An English professor once complained to him that the quality of the students was terrible; that many of them coudnt spell 'friend' correctly.

Mr. Feynman replied "Maybe therez sumthing rong with the way 'friend' iz spelled."

You wrote, "Wut I'm doing iz infuzing a 100% phonetic system into our society by offering it az a literacy training product."

Why not just learn and teach German if want to spell like it sounds?

Actually, what is wrong with the English language? It has served well for a millennium so far. It was fine for Shakespeare.

If you don't like the spelling, bash the French. Many (if not most) of our words come from the French (even though they are Rooked on Phonics).

Our literacy problem has little to do with the language we learn. It has everything to do with our educational system, which is delusional, and our culture, which is also pathological. It is a systemic problem.

Your solution is to dumb down the language instead of raising up the students! It is also not limited to language studies, but every subject taught. QED I told you our education system is pathological.

You shoud also read the Story of English, Anom. Shakespeare lived before spelling got fossilized. Like his contemporaries, his spelling was very inconsistent. He spelled his own name a half a dozen different wayz!

"Served well for a millenium"? Please.

Therez a website called Children of the Code. Its part uv a big project to raise awareness of the heavy cost we are paying in dollars, and hobbled livez due to illiteracy.

You missed the point. I think there is a huge gulf between the evolution of English and your bastardization of it.

As I said earlier, your solution is to dumb down the lesson rather than raise up the student.

I really hope you are not a teacher because that kind of thinking does a real disservice to the children.

Z man,

Your ideas are far from original. Are you not familiar with the debate that raged between whole language theory vs phonics in language teaching, and that the "whole language" approach was widely adopted and used in schools for about two decades beginning the 1980's, with devastating results?

Or are you in fact, a child of that generation, a product of the same method, an example of the illiteracy produced as a result? Perhaps the same illiteracy that caused you to come up with your own foolish campaign against spelling, without researching the history of past pedagogical practices and their results? If so, you have my sympathy, but NOT MY EAR. Get remedial training and learn to spell, read, and respect academic conventions of researching and citing prior work before announcing and campaigning for your "new" ideas. End of advice.

Just to emphasize to you, the folly of not teaching phonics, and of letting children spell however they like without being corrected, the results of the teaching system were so damaging to the children so taught, that the WHOLE LANGUAGE METHOD HAS BEEN OUTLAWED in a number of states, to prevent further damage to the literacy of the next generation!

Shall we review? 1. Your ideas are not original, do your research. 2. The whole language approach, very similar, was advocated and tested in practice for several decades, with the result that it was widely discredited for the very poor literacy outcomes. 3. As a teaching method, it has been formally made illegal by a number of states, to prevent further illiteracy as a result in the public schools, and also allowing any future pedagogical damage by the method, to be the subject of lawsuits. In other words, you can be sued for the illiteracy damage caused by using this method. 4. Cut your losses, Z, and learn to spell. We need a common language to communicate - this one was here first. You need to learn it so you can read what is already written, and you need to write it to be understood. I will not be reading any whiny arguments you may post in gibberish. C'est tout.

Sorry, Artsmith, but you are the wun who needz to do a little research. Nooalf iz PRECISELY the oppozit uv the Whole Word system.

Whole Language (also called Whole Word), for those uv you who never heard uv it, iz the notion that English is so mixed up that its a waste uv time to try teaching any phonetic approach to it - just hav the kidz learn by pure rote memorization. Like Art sed, a complete dizaster. Therez a generation uv adults out there who (not all uv them) can't make hedz or tailz uv an unfamiliar word even if its a word they speak regularly.

The tuff lesson learned by the educational establishment - or I shoud say haf learned - iz that phonetic awareness iz essential to literacy. Nooalf duz that better than any other system out there.

You wrote, "Therez a generation uv adults out there who (not all uv them) can't make hedz or tailz uv an unfamiliar word even if its a word they speak regularly."

That would be the "Texting Generation".

You are trying to solve the wrong problem, dumbing down spelling to make it easier will not improve literacy just as making the value of pi exactly 3 will not make maths easier. You are going to end up with two totally different systems that will confuse more than help.

Just how much time, money and effort do you think it will take and cost to make the transition, and how will you get global recognition even if all of America gets behind this? What about all the existing English language books, signs, internet, etc?

Additionally you have got to be very naive (and even a little bit mad) to think that this idea would ever be accepted in the real world.

If you really want to make a difference try something easier and far more useful, such as converting everyone to the Dvorak keyboard layout.

Dvorak Simplified Keyboard Layout

_{Jack - Don't get me started on TXT.}

You wrote, "If you really want to make a difference try something easier and far more useful..."

Like moving to the metric system, inch by inch. ;-)

I used Dvorak for 2 or 3 yirz, Jack. Even tho I'm not a touch typist, it did speed thingz up a bit.

The strategy I outlined in my opening post costs less than nothing. You will notice that I do not propose converting anybody.

Eventually, thingz will be replaced that havent worn out. That coud be considered a cost, but the motive for replacement woud still partially be for efficiency.

A suggestion for everybody who wants to comment; read at least the 1st 2 pages at Nooalf.com. You will at least hav a chance uv not making yourself seem like a fool.

You woudn't think uv stepping into the ring against Mike Tyson without at least learning the basics uv boxing woud you? So far, you're all flat on the mat and I'm not even breathing hard.

I think you are battling a non-existent problem.

Literacy

That website you cited is just looney.

I might give it some credit, except that there is no problem that needs their solution.

Illiteracy has been on the decline and the trend is declining even more.

This graph is for France, but I doubt it would be any different for any other modern country.

Anon. Hav you ever noticed how Wikipedia often fallz short wen you actually know sumthing about the subject?

In their defense, they do hav a good excuse in this case - literacy rates are measured in more than 1 way and how the data iz collected also varyz quite a bit. Just Google it and check out 10 or so sites and you'll see wut I'm talking about. Sum uv thoze sites seem to be written by people with less than perfectly proficient skill levelz.

Watch sum uv the videoz at Children uv the Code. They are all interviews with credential encrusted academics specializing in literacy and related subjects. I know you are tempted to cherry pick, but if you want to seriously debate with me on this, you hav alot uv catching up to do.

Coud you do sumthing about the chart? It stretched the width uv the whole topic way past the ej uv my screen!

Okay, let's have a serious debate:

First, it is your claim that there is a literacy problem.

Second, you are also claiming that the barrier to literacy is due specifically to the English language.

Those are your claims.

Third, let's communicate in a universal language. I suggest English since I have no familiarity with your language. Do you have proficiency with English?

Now, let's ignore the second claim for the moment. I just want you to substantiate your first claim.

I don't want to see cute videos, I want to see the actual data (and its source) that shows their is a literacy problem.

You rote:

"I don't want to see cute videos, I want to see the actual data (and its source) that shows their is a literacy problem."

Sum uv the 'cute videoz' are frum the people who are the original source uv the data. Its a big site. Lots uv text transcripts if you prefer, and maybe sum charts with stats 'sumweir'.

We arent in the Matrix, dude. I cant plug a jack in the base uv your skull and pump the info directly into your brain. You will just hav to go thru the effort uv taking it in thru your eyez and earz. You can Google just like me.

An important stat iz for 4th graderz in the US. Its wen students are at a critical period in which they seriously need to be literate, otherwize they will be unable to keep up in all subjects. Its an oversimplification, but the illiteracy rate haz been stuck at approximately 17% for decadez. The complexityz are region, race, affluence, and, most influential to the number being stated, level uv literacy.

But youre probably not going to bother, considering your posts so far.

So lets just go to the basic premise.

Your claim iz that disorganization iz uv no consequence. Lets magnify that with the microscope uv exaggeration.

Wut if ALL the letterz uv the alfabet reprezented ALL the soundz, az found by examplez thruout the vocabulary? Then lets say there are only 19 letterz and 5 uv them are almost alwayz silent, and there are 278 different digrafs, trigrafs and clusterz up to 8 letterz to make up for the shortfall. B, for example, iz gone, so we have KE, RL, MQLL and sumtimez ASSKLOWN to spell the B sound. Thered be a thick book uv rulez that suppozedly explainz and organizez it all. Then toss in about 1,000 common wordz that don't follow any uv theze 'rulez'.

By your lojik, it shoud be no problem. Kidz will learn to read and rite just fine. Word rate riting speed will be the same az it iz in any other language, no matter how fonetic.

1. Rhetoric - all of it. You have not presented your data. Where is your case for your first claim?

2. You can't write English. Your grammar is horrible, therefore you can't effectively communicate and have violated my 3rd point for a serious debate. Are you literate or are you attempting to use yourself as that data point in my first point?

You asked for a serious debate and I am willing to do it. The terms of the debate are clear and I will give you another chance to do it if you are serious. Just show me the data.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=991&bih=384&q=literacy+rates+for+4th+graders&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

http://bangordailynews.com/2010/05/18/news/bangor/4thgradersrsquo-reading-levels-raise-alarm/

http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Literacy/stats.asp

http://www.readfaster.com/education_stats.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

http://www.studentsfirst.org/pages/the-stats

Excellent! I applaud your work.

I can't get through all of the links in any detail, but let's accept that we are not performing to par.

Actually, there is tangible evidence that is the case. The USA ranks #45 in the world for literacy. That means there are a significant number of countries leading us. We have a 99% literacy rate, but 44 others have higher.

The next question is what are the barriers for the US?

You have posited that the English language is the barrier because it is so difficult to learn.

Actually, English ranks as a moderately easy language to learn for native students in the world. Languages such as German rank somewhat harder for the native student to grasp. Japanese is much harder than German. Cantonese and other Chinese variants are the hardest.

If we compare the position for most literate countries to ours we find Germany and Japan rate above the USA (31 and 35 respectively).

Clearly, if language difficulty was the predominant cause for literacy failure you would not expect Germany and Japan to exceed our own illiteracy rate.

The answer is that language difficulty is not the main cause of failure. The root of the problem must lie somewhere else - the educational system and parents themselves.

This brings me back to my original reply that stated that language difficulty was not the barrier to literacy.

Lastly, if you look at the ranking of most spoken languages in the world you find that English is #2 only beaten by Mandarin due to the sheer population numbers. The countries that have a higher rate of literacy also have a very high rate of English as a second language. If English was the barrier you claimed, then learning a more difficult native language such as German or Japanese would compound the literacy problem when coupled with learning English as a second language. However, those countries rate better than the US. European and other countries that do not natively speak English successfully learn to be competent in English for a significant number of their populations and rate higher in overall literacy.

The summary for everything I have written is that there is no supportive evidence that suggests that our world-wide literacy position is associated with language difficulty. The problem must lie somewhere else.

"Actually, English ranks as a moderately easy language to learn for native students in the world. Languages such as German rank somewhat harder for the native student to grasp. Japanese is much harder than German. Cantonese and other Chinese variants are the hardest."

And where do you get these 'facts' frum? Are you refering to the total language, bekuz they don't even teach spelling az a subject in German skoolz.

Sorry, can you write in English? That was part of the terms of the discussion.

Do that and we can talk sources and any contrary information you may have.

I find your way of communicating disrespectful (unless you are intellectually challenged, but I am going to assume not).

I am not going down to that (or your) level. You have to come up to mine if you want to continue this discussion or it ends here.

I agree. It's difficult enough to follow the logic thought process disjointed ramblings without having to try to de-code the words.

yor xu gi hq sed saksper rot standrd inglis befor it egzistid (& u numbr uv uxr mistaks), so hq nedz tq be razing xer gam her?

yq kant be boxrd tq dq u gqgl src & get sum faks befor yq volunter an opinyn, & xen wen i provid sum links for yq, yq kant find xu tim tq red xem.

yr not going tq boxr reding xis exr. its tq difikult for yq. pepl uv ordinere intelijens or abl tq wrk xer wa xrq xis, slakrz nqalf, wix u litl efrt & xa or yqjyule up tq sped wixin 1 paj.

lets se if lin iz smort enuf tq translat it for yq.

Game over, dude.

(insrt roling iz emotikon her. xu suleksn uperz belo xe botm uv mi skren wix no wa tq skrol down tq it.)

lik u dilqjunl nrd hq jumps intq xu ring on amicr nit & gets nokt owt bi xu frst punc. now yr dreming xat yq put up u gud fit & wun, but rele yr being weld owt tq xe ambyqlins.

This is virtually unintelligible . In this short post you have completely dis-proven your arguments for phonetic spelling being easier to understand than standard English (and yes I think I know why you posted this way).

Your other posts have not convinced me of any possible merits or advantages of phonetic spelling once the real world pros and cons are weighed objectively.

In my opinion (based on the facts presented to me here) your ideas and thinking just won't work in the real world, and even obvious economic, social and cultural problems with your ideas (many of which we have pointed out for comment and discussion) seem lost on you.

I am removing myself from this thread (and that doesn't happen very often).

It iz intellijabl if you try hard enuf (harder for sum people). I got tired uv Anonz bufoonery.

You don't hav to understand my lojik to believe that fonetic spelling iz better than traditional English. See if you can find any facts relating to literacy training costs in Italy, South Korea, Bosnia, or even any uv the Spanish speaking nationz.

And, if you get up the gumption, tranzlate the slakrz nqalf posts and count how many more letterz there are.

Even a cursory account uv all the waste created by regular spelling will give you a notion that its in the hundredz uv billionz annually.

I fear that I may have done Mr. Dunn a great disservice by suggesting that you two were of a like mind.

I have now come to the conclusion that Mr. Dunn is far more intelligent, and infinitely more articulate than you.

My apologies to Mr. Dunn.

Coud be.

Maybe hez a genius and woud hav provided many profound insights and revolutionary revelationz to the CR4 memberz.

But we'll probably never know kuz you chased him away.

You are only interested in little tek trivia questionz and feel threatened by anybody whoz saying stuff that duznt fit in with wuts securely cemented in your brain. Throwing insults works for you. Its eazy, and you are sure to get the thumz up 'good ansr' frum your similarly fearful frendz.

Tell me why it is that you choose to butcher only part of the language, while leaving other words intact? And, seeming, more complex than necessary.

Is it your contention that if people adopted your "quaint" system _{(OOPS, can't use that word. Your dismemberment of only some of the language demonstrates there is no system, or "method to your madness)} way of spelling that would make them more literate?

By what gauge will you judge the success of your wondrous new language?

A good question.

Wut I am doing with this mild and inconsistent fonetic improvement iz chipping away at the cement in peoplez hedz concerning spelling. Or you can think uv it az wearing out the Spelling Cop in their hedz.

Our early grade skool yirz are dominated by ritualz, gamez and rote memorization uv the spelling. The premise thats hammered into our hedz iz that therez only 1 correct combination uv letterz for every word and if you get it rong, youre stupid. The spelling itself duznt need to make sense; it iz the way it iz by the authority uv the adults and youre in big trouble if you question it or fail to master it.

We are indoctrinated with it, pretty much like a cult religion. The creed iz 'lojik and efficiency are unimportant, obey authority without question.'

This mindset iz the only real obstacle to reform.

By omitting sum uv the barnacle letterz, replacing the stupid 'ph' with 'f' and generally ignoring the 'correct' doctrine in favor uv more fonetic alternativez, I am showing that there iz no reazon for strikt spelling. You can still read it; 'enough' iz just a stupid waste uv everybudyz time since nobody wil fail to read 'enuf'. (except maybe sum uv thoze Whole Word victimz).

Altho its not required to convert literate adults to Nooalf, the Spelling Cop obstructs kidz frum learning it. defeating andor bypassing him iz the challange.

If I were to write in real Nooalf, most people woud not even try to read it. Even tho its specificly dezigned to be readable by most people, its still too big uv a step for them for forumz and other such casual reading.

Never mind I retract the statement I made here. It wasn't even snarky, but I thought better of it.

Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to understand how this abomination you have created will benefit society.

Maybe you just really hated your grade school english teacher?

Sumthing awful.com - Fond memoriez frum the early dayz uv the campaign.

I got a flud uv emailz frum outraged Awful readerz. A duzen or so, in an attempt to look clever, wrote a sentence or 2 in Nooalf, getting it pretty much rite!

No, I got along OK with my teacherz. It wuz actually my 1st grade teacher'z inability to provide an explanation uv the 'e' at the end uv 'gate' that started me on this.

A suggestion for everybody who wants to comment; read at least the 1st 2 pages at Nooalf.com. You will at least hav a chance uv not making yourself seem like a fool.

I agree, but reading it certainly did nothing to convince me (on the contrary).

You woudn't think uv stepping into the ring against Mike Tyson without at least learning the basics uv boxing woud you? So far, you're all flat on the mat and I'm not even breathing hard.

Thanks for not quoting the Wright brothers in an example.

I remain unconvinced there is a problem that requires us to change to phonetic english, and certainly unconvinced it won't cost billions world-wide to implement. The marketing campaign alone would dwarf that of a US presidential campign........

Would you like to explain how you think the change to phonetic english can be done for practically next to nothing (even if a majority of the population didn't care one way or the other)?

I'm selling the Nooalf super Mini Chart for 5 bucks, or even less for quantity purchases. Immediately, its actually saving money over less effective teaching methods and products. Jolly Phonics, for example will lighten your wallet by about 350$ for the starter kit! The kids who begin reading with Nooalf will know what a mess regular English is even as they learn it. When they grow up and become the teachers, engineers, parents, president, etc., they will be able to decide to retire this inefficient burden.

Youre still thinking in terms of Uncle Skam forcing it on the public. Teddy Roosevelt gave that a try in 1906. ( I have original copyz uv the 2 booklets ) Maybe if hiz opponents in Congress hadnt killed it, it mite hav worked, but its still a valid example uv why its a mistake to leave it to the gummit.

Well I can think of more harmful ways to part people with their money. Try the southern states, and try and do something productive with the money.

...<head in hands>.

i may have misunderstood your post, but....are you under the impression that using a phonetic language will drastically improve literacy?

In India, we have >20 official languages. All but one are phonetic, there is never any doubt as to how to pronounce something that is written.

We are not proud of our literacy. With a mommoth population, there are many constraints, millions are helping, the government is trying its best, some difference is visible, but it is a long road.

Phonetic languages have nothing to do with this.

i am somewhat ashamed to say that i am not as fluent in writing in my mother tongue as i am in English. i even think most of the time in English. Because in 45 years of working life, the most common working-place-language i have had with my countrymen was English.

Anything that iz an obstacle to literacy will obviously increase the rate uv illiteracy. Poverty iz a big obstacle. Reducing the effort required to become literate obviously helps.

Nice to be literate, better to be rich

Your first phonetic spelling "Wut I'm doing iz infuzing a 100% phonetic system into our society" .
Second spelling "my casual minor fonetic adjustments"

Does this mean we can all spell the way we want or are there rules to follow?

Woodn it b rulz 2 folo?

Or, one of my favorites, "Rules, we don't need no stinking rules!"

And, while I'm on the subject, why not do away with capitalization and punctuation, too. Then we really would be at the retarded adolescent level.

And, while I'm on the subject, why not do away with capitalization and punctuation, too. Then we really would be at the retarded adolescent level.

Not until we all start communicating in cellphone TXT language. Now there's a communication barrier, and I am told a job application CV killer.

Does this mean we can all spell the way we want or are there rules to follow?

In this case I think it is a simple spelling mistake <groan>.

Not surprisingly the computer's spell check function doesn't work with the phonetic system.

I wonder if a phonetic dictionary even exists, otherwise children would be put at a disadvantage when using a computer (or is this putting the cart before the horse, making a mountain out of a mole hill, etc).

On an additional subject, can you imagine how much ridicule Americans (and anyone else foolish enough) would get if they adopted the phonetic system? If you think about it, worst case it could start quite a few wars. Something to think about.

"On an additional subject, can you imagine how much ridicule Americans (and anyone else foolish enough) would get if they adopted the phonetic system? If you think about it, worst case it could start quite a few wars. Something to think about."

I can do thoze thingz! That makes me a wierdo here!

Seriously guyz - Do you hav persistent dyspepsia, or bad jobz with Lumbergian bossez? Nasty nag wivez, maybe? Lashing out at strangerz will not solve your problemz.

xats prite kql. aksyqle, xats xu frst tim iv sen mor xan a fyq wrdz uv let spek.

You are a genius !!! Legend has it that 12 people in the world understood Einstein. Since nobody understands you...you have to be a greater genius

It is said that there is a very fine line between genius and insanity.

I think our "friend" has gone beyond genius.

The earlier reference to retarded adolescents comes back to mind.

Cheers to you.

How did I miss this one?

Dude. Check out sign language. I only know a little, but it is an incredible form of language. Simple, universal, and an entire train of thought can be expressed with a couple of gestures.

You're on the wrong track man. Who do you hope to impress by replacing s with z...............for the most part.

Hell, pig latin is more fascinating.

Besides. The only way you can be special is by writing or typing. When you speak, you sound just like the rest of us......................except your a monkey. Which is pretty cool. Nevermind.

I'll hav a look.

I watched Waiting For Superman today. Its a documentary about the sorry state uv American education.

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/action/

Very sad, especially considering we used to be the envy uv the world.

(a note to the webmaster: The link button goofs thingz up for netbooks)

It is a disgrace.

The problem with your new language system, is that it's just a version of phonetics.

Unfortunately, while it looks like you are just spelling things the way they sound, there is no way to differentiate between long and short vowels, so your sentences just become a confusing hodge podge of made up words.

I think that if you're putting time and effort into reading and writing this new language of yours, you're really wasting your time. I certainly hope you don't think that teaching kids to write like this is going to fix anything.

Not sure wut you mean by 'just a version of phonetics'. Maybe youre mistaking wut I write here for Nooalf?

I have a page on the site about the lojik behind the system. Its difficult for sum people, but if you can get thru it, (its written in Nooalf) you will realize that there iz another way to think about the relation between speech and spelling. You mite even realize that its a better way.

About your point: There iz no such thing az long and short vowelz.

Yeah, difficult and inferior.

For example: If I'm reading one of your sentences and you use the word "chaz". I have no way of knowing if you're talking about a lounge chair, or Cher's new son, on Dancing With The Stars. The only way to know is to analyze the sentence and try to figure out the context.

It's a pretty silly way to spend your time, but, to each his own. If I ever decide that I'm in the mood for a headache, I'll check out some of your links.

I think you know what I mean by phonetics, and I'm only basing the reference on what you've written. You're attempting to type words exactly as they sound when spoken. No magic there. Problem is, it doesn't work across the board. So you just end up with a hard to understand, chopped up, mess.

Real Nooalf iz a 1 letter = 1 sound system, so Chaz and chaise are spelled different. It looks like CaZ and CAZ with non-Nooalf fonts. If you install the 2nq4yq font, the lower case a looks like a capital A with the horizontal bar missing.