Previous in Forum: Free CFD package   Next in Forum: NASA Crossbow!
Close
Close
Close
Page 2 of 2: « First < Prev 1 2 Last »
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467

Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/03/2011 9:49 AM

NASA's top climate scientist, James Hansen, has essentially declared, that if Canada's tar sands are tapped and exploited, it will be the end of planet earth.

The Keystone pipeline decision has been kicked up until 2013, which would pipe crude from Canada to the refineries in Texas. Canada's attitude toward this decision is basically, "F" you, we'll build a pipeline to the west coast and send our oil to Asia.

http://understory.ran.org/2011/08/29/photo-of-the-day-james-hansen-arrested-for-protesting-keystone-xl-tar-sands-pipeline/

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20110826/james-hansen-nasa-climate-change-scientist-keystone-xl-oil-sands-pipeline-protests-mckibben-white-house

What about US shale oil........................will that be shut down too?

http://dailyreckoning.com/oil-shale-reserves/

The problem I have with the environmentalists, is that they readily admit that we don't have any viable alternatives to fossil fuel right now, but we must stop using it anyway. How is that going to work out?

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1358
Good Answers: 109
#123
In reply to #120
Find in discussion

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 5:55 PM

I was trying to be light about the situation . I love shellfish and everything fish. However, I have spent about the last 44 years in the environmental field and on both sides. If you get involved in a cleanup of an oil spill or such, you will find extraction or separation of soil and oil somewhat similar but not limited to the actions of mining the tar sands. And believe me the projects are not pretty to look at. Ask a private individual who had to clean a "minor" oil spill around their house.

The so called pastoral scene is somewhat misleading. The Athabaska water system has been long known to be contaminated by oil from the insitu tar sands. Fish were reported to have oily tastes. Even the CBC a Canadian broadcaster did documentaries on the Athabaska problem dating back to the 60s. Looks are only a small portion of an environment and in fact most of the contamination of ground water and soil is unseen by direct observation. I am not aware of many projects that exploit resources that have that nice look. Forestry, mining, and hydro projects all look terrible while being undertaken. It is how we make a living and Canadians enjoy a fairly robust standard of living because we have rich natural resources.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 41
#67

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/05/2011 9:23 AM

My understanding is that even if the pipeline is built there is no guarantee that the product will be sold or used here in the US. The pipeline would terminate in a free trade zone so that we would conceivably not only not get the product but no taxes would be paid either. All in all a lose lose situation for the US.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 268
#76

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/05/2011 3:45 PM

If you start using Thorium, then problem solved...

__________________
guds777
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#77
In reply to #76

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/05/2011 4:35 PM

Glad to see someone is ahead of the curve.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#83

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 6:35 AM

Just to let everyone know. I wouldn't feel any better about a NASA scientist enriching himself financially by running around and saying that global warming was a hoax.

OMG, could you imagine the outcry if that was to happen? People would be marching in the streets calling for his head. Every media outlet in the country would be saying that he's lost his mind.

The fact that this guy is able to use his position to leapfrog himself onto a big soap box, illustrates the double standard that exists within the US. We are only allowed to hear one side of the climate change argument. Anything that doesn't fit the template is suppressed. Not just in the US either.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#88

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 8:19 AM

There's money to be made from proselytizing and building a hard core of true believers.

Religious belief evades logic. Fanaticism evades ethics

Call me a blasphemer. The louder anyone tells me that something is so and I must believe or else...then the harder I look for the flaws in those beliefs. .

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Reply
Guru
Belgium - Member - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glabbeek, Belgium
Posts: 1481
Good Answers: 28
#89
In reply to #88

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 8:52 AM

You are so right.

The harder they try to discredit a group of logically data driven scientists, the more I think that there is something that we should not know.

__________________
"Here we are now, entertain us"
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#90
In reply to #89

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 9:22 AM

Well, we know of at least one that is driven by money and fame.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#91
In reply to #90

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 9:46 AM

His argument is based on all of the oil from the Canadian oil sands being burned in an instant. That's not going to happen, so it's no longer science.

It's like saying that volcano's are going to destroy the earth, because if every active volcano erupted at exactly the same time, it would severely alter our climate.

It looks to me like this guy is capitalizing on the fact that there are millions of mushy minded individuals that are waiting for the Pied Piper of climate change to emerge and lead them to the promised land of a world without fossil fuel.

It's simply not going to happen any time soon. To believe otherwise is delusional.

And that doesn't mean I'm pro big oil. I'd love to have a viable alternative in place...................all of us would. But that's not reality.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#94
In reply to #89

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 11:30 AM

Yep that part that seems to get overlooked so often with global warming and climate change is the fact that everywhere got warmer that didn't stay the same or get cooler.

If my back yard got warmer then its real if your back yard stayed the same or got cooler that doesn't count.

One of the first things I learned in science is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In climate change if one place gets less favorable for one reason to one thing it also becomes more favorable for something else for another reason. The good VS bad view of said change solidly rests on whom got the gain and whom got the loss.

Is the house too hot or too cold? That all depends on whom you ask, me or the wife!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#164
In reply to #88

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 9:11 PM

Thats screwey logic. Why not look at the data instead?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#167
In reply to #164

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:01 PM

"There's money to be made from proselytizing and building a hard core of true believers.

Religious belief evades logic. Fanaticism evades ethics

Call me a blasphemer. The louder anyone tells me that something is so and I must believe or else...then the harder I look for the flaws in those beliefs."

Sounds like pretty solid logic to me Wal.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/prophettestsfv5.pdf

Almost biblical maybe?

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#169
In reply to #167

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:26 PM

I've had more than a few way out whiskey soaked posts on here, but the parallels between climate change and religious zealotry are becoming so apparent that even I am getting concerned.

Climate change boils down to SCIENCE!!!! It is not SETTLED SCIENCE!!!!

WTF, is climate change going to become another banned topic?

Last time we got yelled at like this was when we didn't think it was necessary to build nets around baseball fields to catch the fans.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#180
In reply to #169

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 5:56 AM

not a banned topic

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/4193

there's plenty more in the archives

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#181
In reply to #180

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 8:31 AM

Oh I know it. I didn't even mean to start a climate change thread. It was intended to be about the behavior of certain scientists.........................although the old climate argument was bound to surface I guess.

It really doesn't matter to me what the subject matter is. When scientists lose objectivity, and it's reflected in their work...............all of us lose. In the case of climate change, any mistruths, from either side of the debate, should have been exposed and squelched before any of it was released for public consumption. Now the entire debate has become a big emotionally charged train wreck, even for the scientists apparently, and science has been stuffed in the back seat. The way things sit at this point, there's no way that people like us are ever going to be able to figure out what's real and what's hype.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#182
In reply to #181

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 9:24 AM

Denying that humans have had a major impact on the planet would be a prime example of loss of objectivity

using temperature change & CO2 as benchmarks are attempts to dumbdown the conversation to soundbytes for general consumption

of course people on both sides will figure out how to get paid

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#184
In reply to #181

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 12:31 PM

Well, what can you expect. If you throw a bone into a pit with hungry dogs there is bound to be scuffle.

However, all is not lost (or is it). The UN is proposing a world Climate Court with a mission to enforce whatever comes out of the UN in the way of climate change regulations.

The scary part is that these regulations are going to be a mechanism/tool for "equalization" of justice (and wealth) between developed countries and underdeveloped countries, which could be an abuse of power. Another proposed document is calling for an end of all wars so that there is less impact on the climate.

I guess we can all disarm now and let the UN be the final arbitrator of good and evil.

The UN has a lot of experience with evil after they have been caught red handed with the largest monetary scandal in the history of the world. The UN should have no trouble recognizing it and perhaps endorsing it if furthers the UN agenda.

While this may seem like a rant it really is a means to illustrate how climate science is hijacked for political ends.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#185
In reply to #184

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 1:16 PM

Gee, that's encouraging. There's also talk about one world currency and one centralized authority over it. Soon everything will be perfect.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#186
In reply to #181

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 1:20 PM

You know that is so untrue. You continue to ignore the truth. Jones did good research and it has been verified by a guy who did not believe in global warming until he did his own research.

The scientists just do the experiments and report the results. And they only do this on projects that get funded. In Canada, our lovely Stephen Harper has defunded a scientist because she found evidence of some (unknown) viral disease in wild pacific salmon. Without the money, she cannot investigate. That is a real foolhardy move because it could spread to other fish.

(Even though She got published in a big peer reviewed magazine, he defunded her and refused to let her talk to the press. This may not be the soviet union but we have our Stalin wannabe.

Another scientist found evidence of another virus, so the government let the fish rot a bit and then sent them to Norway for confirmation. (Instead of sending them to Seattle which is a ferry ride away). The Americans take much better care of their pacific wild salmon stocks than we do so they are very nervous about this.

Harper's government has also defunded the weather stations in northern Canada. This is a blatent attempt to hide global warming data by simply not collecting it.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#170
In reply to #167

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:42 PM

"Religious belief evades logic. Fanaticism evades ethics"

I don't call you a blasphemer. I call you a true believer (and other things too) Note the second part of the quote above. Why do you suppose the Koch funded global warming skeptic (and scientist) changed his view?

Koch funded him BECAUSE the man was a climate change skeptic. And Koch industries have a shitload of money. If he had just found that global warming isn't happening, he would have been rolling in money for the rest of his life.

He changed his views because he is an honest SCIENTIST and his tests and results showed him that his beliefs were WRONG. However you cannot change your views because you are just as bad and as shameless a conspiracy theorist as any 911 Truther or Obama Birther.

(And I am sure there are a bunch of those lovely people here too).

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2011/11/koch-brother-funded-scientist-and.html Let's hear you and others debunk that guy.

(I am sure you will try because of what you are)

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#172
In reply to #170

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 11:15 PM

So lets say we eliminate the phony carbon exchange from the equation, and let the science do what science is intended to do.

Without the lure of easy money, either directly, through guaranteed loans, subsidies, tax breaks, fat grants, etc., I can't help but wonder if the interest in climate change would wane.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 129
#175
In reply to #172

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 12:10 AM

Possibly 'waning' is the best outcome. Then we would be spared all the BS rhetoric trying to motivate ostriches to action.

It will probably resurface as the climate violence scales up. But, as many of you might know, my belief is the biosphere is past the 'tipping point', so any action by Man, who did it, or what caused/is causing it, is fairly mute.

What needs to happen is "efficiency" within the realization of dwindling resources and increasing complexity of accessing/utilizing the reserves, factoring in an increasingly hostile climate.

Questions like;

Can Man erect/harvest wind power in 200 mph conditions?

Can Man get useful PV output in perpetual overcast?

Can Man extract undersea oil in hurricane conditions?

Can Man mine and/or transport confronted by meters of rain, ice, snow, floods?

At the minute, one flood in Thailand and the production of hard drives ceases.

And BTW I'm not the AP above, but the polar sea ice observation is an undeniable problem indicator, so far as Man compatible climate is concerned.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#178
In reply to #175

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 12:32 AM

Where have you been? Making the move from base camp to optimism? Nice!!!

I'm pretty much in agreement...........................sort of.

Regardless of what the climate is doing, and whether or not we're responsible for it, as resources continue to grow more scarce, the day will probably come when humans just cancel ourselves out as we fight over whatever is left. Oh well.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#179
In reply to #175

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 5:38 AM

+1

as would be the custom on other forums

the discussion is very similar to political ones these days

the extreme's on both sides dominating a mostly philosopical discussion & precluding any real work being done...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1358
Good Answers: 109
#177
In reply to #170

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 12:23 AM

If we are to resort to third party conversions as proof of climate science be careful. I posted this once in another blog:

Freeman Dyson a renowned physicist best states the case for scientific study:

On Global Warming: (from wickapedia)

Dyson agrees that anthropogenic global warming exists, and has written
" One of the main causes of warming is the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere resulting from our burning of fossil fuels such as oil and coal and natural gas.[21] "

However, he has argued that existing simulation models of climate fail to account for some important factors, and hence the results will contain too much error to reliably predict future trends.
" The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world we live in...[21] "

He is among signatories of a letter to the UN criticizing the IPCC [22][23][24] and has also argued against the ostracization of scientists whose views depart from the acknowledged mainstream of scientific opinion on climate change, stating that "heretics" have historically been an important force in driving scientific progress.
" heretics who question the dogmas are needed... I am proud to be a heretic. The world always needs heretics to challenge the prevailing orthodoxies.[21] "

More recently, he has endorsed the now common usage of "global warming" as synonymous with global anthropogenic climate change, referring to recent
" measurements that transformed global warming from a vague theoretical speculation into a precise observational science.[25] "

but has argued that political efforts to reduce the causes of climate change distract from other global problems that should take priority.
" I'm not saying the warming doesn't cause problems, obviously it does. Obviously we should be trying to understand it. I'm saying that the problems are being grossly exaggerated. They take away money and attention from other problems that are much more urgent and important. Poverty, infectious diseases, public education and public health. Not to mention the preservation of living creatures on land and in the oceans.[26] "

Dyson's views on global warming have been criticized as failing to understand the amount of carbon sequestration needed.[27] Dyson has proposed that whatever inflammations the climate was experiencing might be a good thing because carbon dioxide helps plants of all kinds grow. His caveat is that if CO2 levels soar too high, they could be soothed by the mass cultivation of specially bred "carbon-eating trees". He calculates that it would take a trillion trees to remove all carbon from the atmosphere, which he believes in principle is quite feasible.[28]

Dyson is well-aware that his "heresy" on global warming has been strongly criticized. In reply, he notes that:
" My objections to the global warming propaganda are not so much over the technical facts, about which I do not know much, but it's rather against the way those people behave and the kind of intolerance to criticism that a lot of them have.[13]

Dyson does summarize some of my fence sitting thoughts. He does think we should have engineered solutions readied such as growing trees. Stewart Brand , a lifelong environmentalist wrote a book, (Whole Earth Discipline: An Ecopragmatist Manifesto) also thinks we ought to prepare other engineered answers to global warming. There are other scientists that have been equally ostracized by the alarmist side. Ian Plimer, an Australian geologist was given severe treatment for not dotting all the i s and crossing t s. It seems like what's good criticism for the alarmist is taboo for the denial criticism.Similar criticism of Don Easterbrook, another credible geologist who wrote a book called Evidence Based Climate Science. Science is about questioning the evidence and no single answer is necessarily the final answer. I would urge you to tone down your rhetoric and perhaps read some of the contrary science. One common thread with all the scientists is that they will move their position if they receive the correct evidence to convince them. I have no doubt there will be real scientists in both camps and those that are willing to be criticized.

I as a fence sitter would like to ratchet down the doomsday scenarios and think about solutions that will counter the CO2 effects. The jury is still out on the results. We will in the end do the right thing I have no doubt.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#92

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 9:55 AM

Let's not have any climate change denial here. You'll get a knock on the door from the men in green. Am I allowed to say "men"?

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#93
In reply to #92

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/06/2011 11:20 AM

So far my personal assertion from all this "green movement" of the last number of years is that green is the new sh!t brown of the same old political turds.

You can paint and polish a turd to any color and shine that you like but at its core it still a turd.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#101
In reply to #93

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 12:16 AM

..saying "men" is ok then....

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#105

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 7:38 AM

This looks interesting.

Something I've always found suspect, is that climate change alarmists, from Al Gore to Hansen, and many others, always seem to find their way into the limelight, and in the process become very wealthy. I won't even get into Goldman-Sachs' involvement with cap and trade.

Scientists that fall on the "right" side of the argument are hailed as heroes, and receive huge research grants, while scientists that present conflicting data toil in relative obscurity, and are often ostracized, lose funding, etc.

To me, the entire argument for man made climate change, appears to be motivated by the same old things that have always motivated humans...............power, prestige, and of course, money.

So, while I don't have the expertise to argue one side or the other on climate change, I am smart enough to follow the money on cap and trade and the global carbon exchange that some are pushing for.

First of all, the entire scheme will do nothing to curb carbon emissions, but creates a method for a select few to skim 100's of billions of dollars right off the top, by creating a market in which carbon is traded like stock.

Secondly, China, India, and many other nations that are getting their feet wet in manufacturing and general industrialization, will never agree to join such a thing and hobble their own progress...........................therefore, it's pointless. Like I said earlier, fossil fuels will be being utilized somewhere, until they are gone.

Fossil fuel, and oil in particular, has changed the course of human history...............................for the better! Everything we have, everything we do, in fact, human existence on the entire face of the planet, is what it is, and has been completely shaped by that slippery stuff that comes out of the ground.

There is no replacement. When it's gone, we will adapt. If it's changing the climate, we'll adapt to that too. I'd imagine that future adaptations will involve massive changes in the lifestyle that oil has afforded us.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Anonymous Poster #2
#106

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 8:42 AM

People seem to forget that the earth is essentially a closed system. There's only a limited amount of energy coming in. What we are using, in the form of coal and oil was collected over billions of years. Uranium is just as bad, there's no evidence that 'new' uranium is being formed. That being said, these fuels will run out. Whether it starts in 2015 or 2115, these fuels will run out and a billion years is too long to wait for more.

This means that the only NEW energy coming into our closed system is solar. Don't forget that wind power and hydro are also caused by solar energy input.

I'd also like to propose a 'parable'. It's about a man who owned a small plot of land. On this lot was a well with the most delicious water. It's a small lot, so there's no other place to dig a well.

Like most people, energy is a big concern of this man. He likes a hot shower. He needs to keep his house warm in winter and cool in summer. It's a struggle to pay for the energy to do this.

One day, the man realizes that if he pisses in the well, a miraculous source of energy flows out of the well. It's easier than oil to use and it comes out of the well ready to use.

Now it's decision time, the water or the energy?

Folks, the EPA was created in an attempt to temper the greed. There are some who say, "Let market forces prevail." in a perverse notion that "market forces" will stop situations like Love Canal and the like. There is absolutely a need for government regulation to oversee energy extraction and refining. Without it, no company will bother to "do the right thing" and clean up after itself. It just won't happen.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#107
In reply to #106

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 8:54 AM

Who was saying there should be no regulations? Not me.

It's an entirely different subject, but you won't find me advocating for zero regulations.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#108
In reply to #107

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 9:52 AM

The point is humans are having an effect on the closed system that we live in

don't like using the release of carbon as a benchmark, it only gets more complex from there

& yes you regularly rant about how evil EPA is...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#110
In reply to #108

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 1:32 PM

Biological life (not just humans) have always had an effect on the "closed system" we live in (albeit it a VERY minor effect). After a while, the closed system reacts and expels some of those life forms. Even some of the coexisting members of earth sometimes expel each other for cause and effect reasons. Have no fear for Mother Earth. She will expel us in due time when she is ready. The green crowd is not concerned about Her at all, they are only concerned about themselves. This huge water and rock ball will be here and doing very nicely long after they are gone.

The EPA is not specifically an evil entity, but it IS very political, and is generally guided by a socialist agenda. Some may not like the idea of funding an organization with their personal taxes, which to them is acting contrary to their beliefs.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#113
In reply to #110

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 2:18 PM

"Very minor effect". Where the hell did you get that? "biological life" does not need an oxygen rich atmosphere or ozone above it, but we sure as hell do. I would much rather if humans waited to be expelled rather than expelling themselves by being absolutely stupid and ignoring what has happened before and why it happened. How could the EPA be socalist? Doesn't it serve as a temporary position for many monsanto execs? Didn't it exempt oil frackers from paying for cleanup of leaks from fracking. I know a guy who spent $120,000 for cleaning up an oiil leak under a house oil tank. So how much will the US public have to pay if a fracker leak contaminates a town of 10,000 people? That sure does not sound like a socalist decision. Contamination becomes an act of God, and the frack company is God. God does not pay out. for hurricanes and now the new God does not have to pay out if it screws up either.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#117
In reply to #113

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 4:21 PM

So how much will the US public have to pay if a fracker leak contaminates a town of 10,000 people? That sure does not sound like a socalist decision.

When a lot of people (the US public) pay taxes which are then used for public purpose (cleaning up a spill), that is socialism.

"Very minor effect". Where the hell did you get that? "biological life" does not need an oxygen rich atmosphere or ozone above it, but we sure as hell do. I would much rather if humans waited to be expelled rather than expelling themselves by being absolutely stupid and ignoring what has happened before and why it happened.

You sound scared. Maybe you should be. If the extent of your remediation efforts regarding your fears will be limited to cursing at me, one with an opposing view, then this event will go as it should.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#118
In reply to #117

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 4:47 PM

"What a twisted web we weave" So NOW you are saying that using law changes and public money to pay for messes made by the biggest companies in the world is socialism. Using that definition, from the 1960's on, the USA was the primary socialist country in the world!

Well done. Dick Cheney, right wing US republican VP, Halliburton pirate, good man AND socialist? (He is the one who gave oil companies the exemption from EPA water quality rules). Which, you with your infinite wisdom seem fine with.

I don't know what you are drinking buddy. Where did I curse? Hell? In that context, it's not a curse, it is short for "hello, wake up".

Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#119
In reply to #118

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 5:01 PM

You do not seem capable of intelligent discussion on this issue. For example, when did I mention "law changes"? How is it hard to understand that using public tax collections for a purpose that benefits those who are taxed is socialism?

I can see why my wisdom seems infinite to you.

I am also sure this will draw another well thought out and worded reply.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#121
In reply to #119

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 5:21 PM

You didn't need to say law changes, (Dicks law change is part of the whole new deal) the situation before the law change was that the frack company got to clean up any messes it made.

But Dick was having none of that.

How is changing the law to let a gas frack company pollute an aquifer that the taxpayer has used for hundreds of years and THEN getting the taxpayer to pay for the pollution socialism? You want the individual victims of that crime to pay instead???

How about getting the CRIMINAL who did the pollution to pay?

"You do not seem capable of intelligent discussion on this issue." REALLY

I think you have played so much monopoly so you think that get out of jail for free cards for frack companies is good for the economy. If you as a frack company pour diesel in MY water, it threatens MY life. But you want ME to pay for the Pollution!

And that passes for intelligent discussion?

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#124
In reply to #121

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 6:22 PM

I really wish everyone that wants no nuclear, no oil, no coal, etc., would just go ahead and come up with a viable alternative. It would make things so much easier.

On your other ongoing conversation, it's us that will pay for any cleanup regardless...........................we can do it through taxes, or we can pay at the pump, either way, we will pay.

We can argue about whether oil is good or bad until we're blue in the face...........................there is NOT a viable replacement right now. You depend on it as much as anyone. Simply running around pointing out the damage it causes, or saying that it needs to stop doesn't cut it.

Why does everyone on the "green" side of the argument, stuff as much money in their pockets as they possibly can, rather than putting the money to work on research into new technologies?

Seems to me like we've got a bunch of very loud, very rich, (and getting richer), mouth pieces, denigrating the use of fossil fuel, but they refuse to put the money where their mouth is.......................................it goes in the bank, it goes to investments, it goes to big houses, fancy cars, planes......................................Hell, it goes to everything but the one thing they claim to be so passionate about.

And you want me and others to believe everything they say. Sorry. They're gonna have to do a better job of demonstrating their passion before I buy it without question. Running off the mouth and living the lifestyles of the rich and famous isn't working for me.

If man made climate change is for real, it's the guys that have delegated themselves as the spokesmen for the movement that are destroying it's credibility, not us.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#125
In reply to #124

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 6:55 PM

I would prefer to pay at the pumps than pay indirectly through my taxes for their oil spills. Me paying indirectly makes them sloppy.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#126
In reply to #125

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 7:13 PM

There's one way, and one way only, to eliminate big dirty oil............................................eliminate demand. All the talk in the world won't change that fact.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#127
In reply to #126

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 9:33 PM

Your comment is not relevant to what I said. I prefer to have the oil companies pay for the spills and for the oil price to go higher at the pumps in consequence. This weeds out the more careless oil companies. If I pay for the spills directly by losing my home value above the spill, or indirectly by paying for it in my taxes, the oil companies will get really sloppy and have more spills. It is better for everyone (including the oil company in the long run) if they take responsibility for their mistakes.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#128
In reply to #121

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 2:29 AM

(Dicks law change is part of the whole new deal) the situation before the law change was that the frack company got to clean up any messes it made.

But Dick was having none of that.

You seem to be infatuated with Dick, and Law changes. What taxpayer has used an aquifer for "hundreds" of years? Ancient Sumer or Rome perhaps. Where are you from?

kramarat, are you paying this guy?

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#130
In reply to #128

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 4:40 AM

WJMFire is fine with a frack company polluting his water and either he personally or the taxpayer in general paying to clean it up. Because that is the law as handed down by GOD.

So I presume that he is also fine if you or anybody else shit on his doorstep every day. (as long as there is a drop of oil in it) He will gladly clean it up. What a guy.

Anyway for his education, here is aquifer info for the USA http://water.usgs.gov/ogw/aquiferbasics/ Also, for his education, (despite what they say in the old wives tale), oil and water do mix.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#131
In reply to #128

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 7:14 AM

No. I'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore.

Somehow Gia got the impression that we're okay with oil companies wantonly destroying and polluting everything in their path. I don't know about you, but that's not my positition.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#136
In reply to #131

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 10:33 AM

Not my position either. I live in the country and have a well. Anyone who comes out here "fracking" around gets shot.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#138
In reply to #136

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 11:02 AM

Somehow these types of threads and blogs always turn into an, "us" vs. "them", affair.

Because some of us realize that fossil fuel isn't going away anytime soon, we get categorized as people that want a sooty, polluted planet.

It does not compute.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#139
In reply to #138

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 11:11 AM

there is going to be substantial environment impact extracting & piping hot tar across the continent.

the companies involved are going to avoid as much liability as possible

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#141
In reply to #139

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 12:02 PM

Well, we can just buy it from the Mid East instead.

Oh, what is the "substantial" environmental effect?

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#122
In reply to #108

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/07/2011 5:24 PM

I've never said they're evil.

Too big, too powerful, hungry for more power, and completely inept in their decision making process.........................not just the EPA either................it's the entire government, and every single one of it's various departments and agencies.

Not evil. Heck, I even think that a lot of the misguided fools think they're doing a good job.....................they're just wrong.

Just one tiny example here on Milo's blog........................declaring every tree stump across the US as hazardous debris. Yes, I think they are out of control, dangerous idiots.

Every one of them is in self preservation mode, and all of us that don't happen to work for the government are paying the price. I'm tired of it.

Sure we need laws and rules...................right now we're watching them, and the people that make them, spin out of control. It's slowly suffocating our country.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#132
In reply to #122

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 7:54 AM

you can't bootstrap yourself in to credibility, by linking to your own post

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#133
In reply to #132

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 8:22 AM

Oh for cryin' out loud.

Here's the link. Took all of 15 seconds.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#134
In reply to #133

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 8:38 AM

I don't see stumps as hazardous waste.....

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#135
In reply to #134

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 10:24 AM

They update the site monthly, so my original link goes to a different page.

Fortunately, the government has made this information very simple to find. It's either here, or in the RCRA regulations.

Somehow they had found "tree stumps" being classified as "hazardous debris" in the thousands of pages of regulations. I don't have time to try to find it.

Plus, this thread isn't about the EPA. It's about scientists selling their integrity for a political agenda and financial gain.

http://www.suite101.com/news/first-climategate-then-wikileaks-is-global-warming-a-hoax-a317584

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#137
In reply to #135

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 10:59 AM

it looks like you are just making shyt up to prove your point, which is exactly what you are accusing the good doctor of...

Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#140
In reply to #137

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 11:50 AM

I don't care what it looks like. You're talking about a point I made on milo's blog a couple of weeks ago, in which I provided a link to the relevant web page. I'm sorry that the page was updated. It's still relevant.................I just don't feel like spending an hour pouring over government websites to find it again, to satisfy you, on a completely unrelated thread. I hope you understand.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#142
In reply to #140

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 12:13 PM

no I don't understand

nor will I spend an hour of my time, to find information that probably doesn't exist

because you want to rant

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#143
In reply to #142

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 12:15 PM

Works for me.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors -

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4361
Good Answers: 104
#151
In reply to #135

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 7:19 PM

Your last link is great. Make sure Roger Pink gets it.

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Reply
Guru
Belgium - Member - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glabbeek, Belgium
Posts: 1481
Good Answers: 28
#129

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 2:35 AM

Well, one thing is sure: this blog evolved in a bunch of serious nutcases on a HEAVY trip

Calm down boy's

__________________
"Here we are now, entertain us"
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#144

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 12:24 PM

As I have commented on other threads the whole issue of fossil fuel/hydrocarbon based energy will never fully go away or the wide spread use of hydrocarbon based fuels of any kinds for that matter as well simply because they are a nesisary part of our existance as a whole.

Presently we use the fossil fuel based hydrocarbon resources simply because they are the easiest and most abundant base stocks to work with which is why they dominate. Simply volumes available VS costs to extract and work with is what governs it and nothing else.

When coal and naturally occurring hydrocarbon oil base stocks become too cost prohibitive for most we will just switch over to using more synthetically produced hydrocarbon fuels which will likely still be in the end the same basic chemical formulas as we see today in our fuels we use now. Just the base sources for the said hydrogen and the carbon they are built from will be coming from other things.

Over all CO2 emissions will likely continue to rise, every place that did not get warmer will be the same or cooler, fuel consumption will continue to go at what ever rate each of us can cost justify in our lives, every idiot that lives by water will eventually get flooded for one reason or another regardless of what their politicians promised, and not one dam thing will be different other than there will be a new villain that the eco nazis and climatologist cults will point at and scream about because they have found yet another new irrational one sided highly implausible what if scenario that is just around the next corner thats going to end the world as we know it for sure this time to chase around and scream gloom and doom over.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#145
In reply to #144

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 1:22 PM

The logical choice right now is securing our energy future in the US................regardless of the source. The closer, the better. Canada is pretty darn close.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#146
In reply to #145

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 1:34 PM

North Dakota is even closer!

Rumor has it it may even be on the south side of the Canadian boarder too but the down side is the politicians and local government there still have some money management skills and common sense plus people tend to have slightly higher than average IQ's and knowledge of whats actualy going on around them than the rest of the US population has shown.

They could prove to be a very difficult bunch to deal with.

Reply
Anonymous Poster #2
#152
In reply to #146

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 7:21 PM

Different hydrocarbons...

The reason we use oil and coal right now is that they're loaded with energy. That energy was collected over eons. To come up with 'more synthetically produced hydrocarbon fuels' the energy to put into them needs to come from somewhere.

The concern with fossil fuels is that they're consumption releases carbon that was previously sequestered. LOTS of carbon. Whether anthropomorphic or not this is #1 on the list of possible causes of global warming. It's also why scientists are studying it so closely.

As I noted earlier, the only energy input into our little microcosm we call our planet is via the sun. Eventually, be it now or 100 years from now, we'll have to live on that energy input alone.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#153
In reply to #152

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 8:06 PM

We've done it before. Humans existed for thousands of years before oil came along.

The problem is, that fossil fuels, and oil in particular, are behind everything we are right now. It's behind our population explosion, the ability to feed so many people, our lifestyles that we enjoy, electricity...............................virtually everything we have can be attributed to oil. There is no replacement.

We will not be able to have our current level of comfort on a global scale without oil. Compromises will have to be made. People will die off. People will all have to work if they want to survive.

Oil is not the problem. People are the problem. Our current use of resources, including oil, and our rate of consumption of those resources is unsustainable. I think deep down inside, everybody is aware of that...............................at least the people that take the time to put any thought into it.

We have set ourselves up on an impossible course to maintain. When it's over, it's over. The earth will be fine, and those that are able, will continue to survive. It just won't be as fun and comfortable as we're used to.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Belgium - Member - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glabbeek, Belgium
Posts: 1481
Good Answers: 28
#154
In reply to #153

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 3:02 AM

I have been sound for some day's now, just reading and tracking the positions of the responders.

It now looks to me that you can divide us all in three groups:

1. Those who accept the claims of science that humanity is responsible for a dramatic climate change and that we haven't seen the ultimate results of it.

2. Those who can see some logic in it but are not seeing an alternative so better close an eye and hope that the soup will not be eten as hot as served.

3. Those who can't accept at all that the superior devine humanity has any influence on what is going on and just want to go on with their life.

But it is also remarkable that from the two last groups most are to be counted in the "not in my backyard" group.

I count myself in the first (surprise?) and see the issues as an opportunity.

But I'm also very realistic: it will be very difficult to have planes fly on batteries, unless someone finds a solution to overcome the bad energy to mass ratio of all alternative energy storage systems. (Alternative is not hydrocarbon based)

So we will be using fossil fuel for many years after this. But we should be starting to impose the use of alternatives where possible. eg: second cars in households should be electric battery powered or static heating purpose should be running on renewables or heat pumps: these two simple measures would already lower the pressure on the fossil hydrocarbons, enabling renewable sources of hydrocarbon fuels to gain a decent market position.

But hydrocarbon based fuels are not the main issue: we could offer a lot of people a nice income if we could set up an alternative fuel economy.

Some traditional companies have understood that they should be active in creating an alternative for the future. Most are just counting and calculating that oil shortage means higher prices and potentially will reduce investment costs and the reduced consumption will result in not having to replace a lot of the actual refineries.

For me the third group is just afraid that they will loose their nice life if they would accept the numbers.

One last remark: if you all would read better between the lines you would see that most of the heavy discussions are based on different subjects.

__________________
"Here we are now, entertain us"
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#155
In reply to #154

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 7:17 AM

Good post.

There are a couple of issues though. The US government is starting to impose the use of alternatives, and it's not working. While they rarely make the news, these imposed alternatives are turning into one expensive failure after another.

Electric cars sound great. Problem is, that US power generation is still primarily coal, so these would be essentially coal powered cars. Plus, we don't have either the generating capability, nor the grid capacity to deal with everyone charging electric cars.

Setting up an alternative fuel economy sounds great too, but what will be the fuel? Ironically, the big oil companies are some of the big players in alternative fuel sources. Chevron leads the way in geothermal power generation and exploration.

I think alternatives will come and they will work, but I think some massive changes in the way we, (humans), live, will necessarily have to accompany those alternative fuel sources.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#156
In reply to #154

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:51 AM

You for got those of us in the group 4. The has been believers who were once in group 1 that couldn't swallow the limited info and could not in good conscious follow let alone stand on the dogma presented that now see the highly unlikely but yet remotely plausible changes as being a good thing.

I was once a believer but while doing my best to defend my position by doing more reading and expanding my range of understandings of all the plausible other influences to back up my beliefs I came to the sad conclusion that there are simply too many high level variables that have the greatest power of influence that come from everything but what us humans do let alone that have any relation to CO2 in any way shape or form and they are always either completely ignored or greatly played down by those in group 1.

Then there have been the continual scientific scandals and outright lies, data manipulations, falsified reports and so on that have so far been a continuing discredit to the cause not to mention the load's of ill conceived poorly implemented political issues and their scandals that have come along with the wants of group 1 that just drive the issues behind their cause even further down. Sorry I just cant follow a preacher who keeps getting caught touching the quire boys he claims to so dearly love and defend.

Lastly there is also the issue of what about those who gain from the said changes that are occurring and that may occur in the future? All I ever get from group one is gloom and doom scenarios, many of them incredibly unrealistic, that are going to wipe out the world as we know it. Thats BS and anyone of reasonable impartial scientific understanding knows it. The ones who don't want change are the one who presently have the most to loose from their comfort zones. Those of us who already live in harsher climates and locations have much to gain as we see it. Shorter winters, longer growing seasons, better summer rains, and so forth. We are also the ones who know that flooding always occurs and will always occur along with bad storms, droughts, hot days, and so on. Nature does what it full well pleases with all the violence and fury that it wants and always has and always will.

I want a warmer planet and accept what goes with it. I have very high doubts that CO2 has anywhere near the impact its be reported too but in fair unbiased scientific reasonings I am not ignoring its possible influence so for the time being I am giving it a happy tongue in cheek maybe and doing what ever I can to further expand and increase my personal CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions as far as I conveniently can!

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#161
In reply to #156

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 5:25 PM

Yep, it's too bad, I think that certain aspects of the CO2 argument are accurate. Ocean acidification for example.

By having certain climate scientists lying and manipulating data, while others are pushing for a global carbon exchange in which billions of dollars will be moving around, greatly enhancing the lives of a select few, the very people that are screaming the loudest about climate change are the same people that have destroyed the credibility of anything associated with it. Even the accurate aspects of the argument are now called into question. Too bad.

I don't know about anybody else here, but l quickly dismiss liars and manipulators in any aspect of my life. These guys are no different.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#163
In reply to #161

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 9:09 PM

"By having certain climate scientists lying and manipulating data" That is a LIE, Phil Jones can sue you for slander for that. People could call you a liar for repeating the lie. You should really stop.

I guess history stopped for you about a year ago.

Phil Jones got exonerated. You have zero right to claim that he is a liar.

And after that, a major climate sceptic got funding from Koch industries to re-evaluate everything.They added more data and used different records and guess what? They got almost exactly the same result as Jones got. Even with Koch backing the research, they got the same result as Jones got.

So now, even when climate sceptic scientists get results that show global warming, you still bury your head in the sand! I am not even going to bother to post a link because people here have their mind made up before they even see the data. How did some of you get to become engineers? I thought engineering was going with the best fit for the actual data. Any of you guys know why they call them greenhouse gases? "o, but our CO2 that we put up in the atmosphere is not actual greenhouse CO2" It has different absorbtion properties than the other CO2" . So it is ok.

Here is the deal, (If you believe in God). God made the rules of nature. You can cheat on your taxes, you can cheat you exam to become an engineer, because God didn't make up the exam rules. But you CANNOT cheat chemistry and physics, because God DID make those rules. I don't know if God cares about us but if we are too stupid to read His rules, I don't think we will be going to heaven.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#165
In reply to #163

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 9:56 PM

And finally the real faith based scientific belief backings show through.

For what its worth if you are a real believer in God then by gosh you probably know what the good book says about 'speaking for God' and what 'he has planned' based on your assumptions, beliefs, wants and/or wishes.

Here is a little refresher. http://1truebeliever.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/speaking-for-god/

God does what God wants to do in time frames, ways, and for reasons we mortal humans can not relate to, I do know that much at least. As far as climate science goes I am not going to bring 'Gods will' into this. I don't know the plan for the future but I do know enough about the past to know that those who claim to be working/speaking for Gods will tend to come out seen for being the furthest from it in the end. Past record and present experience has shown that to be true far too many times for me to question otherwise.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#166
In reply to #163

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:01 PM

gia, you're getting too emotionally involved here. I didn't call Phil Jones a liar. I did take the time to read through the first batch of wiki leaked emails. Now there are apparently more. What I'm seeing is a pattern of deception in the name of the global warming climate change cause.

That, combined with the fact that people stand to make millions of dollars from a carbon exchange that hasn't been shown to reduce the amount of CO2 being emitted into the atmosphere, but merely swapping it around between industries, leaves me leary of the whole thing to say the least.

I'm sorry if that upsets you.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#157
In reply to #154

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 2:34 PM

What dramatic change?

We have noticed a slight uptick (less than .8°C delta change in average surface temperature) in the last 100 years.

That is almost lost in the noise level and we are still refining our understanding of what the real data is.

The problem is that we have not had very good measurement abilities until the last few decades, so we are comparing older historical data that has a much wider degree of statistical variation. For a guy that likes to hang my hat on solid numbers I don't get a very warm and fuzzy from that (no pun intended).

Secondly, correlation does not equal causation. We only have limited data and lots of theories based on computer modeling - no hard experiments to substantiate the claims.

From my vantage point this adds up to a series of "probabilities" and in no way does it mean the science is settled on the "debate".

I have stated ad nausium that we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater, however, it is prudent to seek ways to lower our footprint without adversely affecting our livelihood.

I think that anyone that falls in the #1 camp has Chicken Little somewhere in their ancestry.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22645
Good Answers: 409
#158
In reply to #157

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 2:43 PM

I rather enjoy watching the proverbial 'People acting like chickens running around with their heads cut off'

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#159
In reply to #158

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 4:20 PM

It's funny, until they're running the show.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22645
Good Answers: 409
#160
In reply to #159

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 4:26 PM

lets just hope they run into a tree (splat) before that happens.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Anonymous Poster #2
#162
In reply to #157

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 8:51 PM

-Shrinking ice caps?

-Lots of record breaking weather extremes? Heat wave in Moscow last year. How about Tennessee with snow while Maine was still in the 60's last month.

-Droughts in places where they usually don't happen? eg. Georgia.

Not a scientific list, but I would say it deserves scientific study.

Keep in mind that higher temperatures (even that 0.8°C delta you noted) mean more energy in the atmosphere. That means more movement, ie faster winds, stronger storms, more storms. It doesn't mean your winter will be any shorter or your summer hotter.

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#168
In reply to #162

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:11 PM

All of the things you cited have happened in history (and even more extreme) and even before we were gathering fruit.

And you are right, it is not a scientific list, it simply is an ad hoc set of observations.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1358
Good Answers: 109
#148

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 3:10 PM

Here is a link to a pdf file from IHS/CERA Cambridge Energy Research Ass. Although Alberta Crude mined has a footprint of CO2 6% greater than W. Texas intermediate, it compares well with Saudi and Venezuelan crudes. The Keystone pipeline would assist by lowering the "well to wheel" footprint of distribution. The report provides a lot of the fodder bantered about and directly addresses the questions asked. It also explains some of the newer regulations versus the cap and trade method. I have not yet completed the report but I thought it interesting enough to pass it on to CR4. Perhaps if we all stop speculating and ranting we can be more rational in our discussion.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#149
In reply to #148

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 3:29 PM

Thanks. Definitely worth a look. These arguments would probably be more productive if we had some idea of what we're talking about.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#150
In reply to #148

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/08/2011 3:56 PM

Very interesting report, well written although a little dated.

If everyone on this thread would read the report, some attitudes might change a little.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#171

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 10:55 PM

I struggle to accept the global temperature increase figures that are bandied about by the well intentioned headless chickens for one reason only.

The datum is never defined.

Without a reference datum any figures are subjective at best and pretty meaningless.

That's what happens when the world is over run by sales people. If people buy an idea it must be true. If someone else has bought it then I should buy it too..... You can sell anything if it is marketed well.

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#173
In reply to #171

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 11:30 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/11/03/climate-change-berkley-muller.html (Even has video for people who do not read).

The former global warming skeptic gathered a huge amount of data. Conclusion?

1 C warming since the mid-1950s. (That is actually a lot of warming.)

If it continues at that rate, what chance for your grandchildren? How will they live through the summers?

But hey, if your belief system precludes you from believing it, there is nothing anybody can do with or for you. The ice volume in the Arctic is down again this year to its lowest since records began.

It takes the same amount of energy (heat) to convert one ounce of ice at zero degrees C to one ounce of water at zero degrees C as it does to raise one ounce of water from zero C to 79 C This means that the change from ice at 0 C to water at 0 C is masking and hiding a huge amount of the heat being absorbed in the Arctic right now.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Arctic_Volume_loss_2011.html

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#176
In reply to #173

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 12:17 AM

Thanks for the link with a video.

How does the featured vacuum cleaner in that video relate to global warming?

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#183
In reply to #173

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 11:51 AM

Please tell me on what day of the the year does having a roughly 2 degree F higher temp negatively affect things to the point of total destruction or even above average inconvenience?

I for one can not add even as much as 20 degrees F to every single day of the year and be inconvenienced by it! Hell if anything I would get about 100 more days of considerably nicer days that bitter cold days. At worse I get about 20 more days out of the year where I have to run my air conditioner which uses a whole lot less energy that does the equivalent running my heaters!

For me that 20 F year round rise means me seeing -10 F only about 10 nights out of the year instead of around 50 to 60.

The biggest issue I have with the estimated temperature rises is that they are statistically produced. A warmer winter will drive the average number up despite the rest of the year being basically no different. Its not that 364 days out of the year are completely normal and one is 500+ degrees higher.

This is why I ask "what does adding a few degrees to every single day of the year really honestly and truly affect in anyones life unless you live in a desert region where it is already intolerably hot for too many days of the year already thats your fault not natures. IF its too hot for you move! I can recommend about half a planet worth of places that I can guarantee you will never complain about a hot day again!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 8
#187
In reply to #183

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 1:29 PM

Didn't 10,000 people die of heat stroke in France a few years ago? My Mum who lives in Ireland got the edge of that heatwave and she said that she would never complain about cold summers again! And there was a monster heatwave in Russia too. It is not just about you. The extra 2 f in 50 years isn't distributed equally, and it can affect farming very badly. (and remember that melting glaciers is hiding the real rate of increase). Once they are gone, there will be no summer water in many areas to evaporate and take the heat away.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#188
In reply to #187

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 3:15 PM

Actually it as closer to 15,000 (largely low income elderly and sickly without simple air conditioners) but the main contributing factor was not the heat itself rather the local culture and other human induced limitations that caused the greatest toles such as simply the too few people and public places owning working air conditioners.

http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/majorhazards/activites/murcia_26-27oct2009/HeatWave2003_Lagadec2004.pdf

The actual temperatures seen there where around 104 F in the day and 77 F at night. Temperatures that I find completely reasonable to deal with and typical of our summers here, we too are on the same latitude line of 46 north as France, and a far cry from the scorching heat that my wife is used to in Turkey where summer temps in the mid 120's F (50+ C) with humidity levels of near 100% are common every day occurrences. That is also similar temperature and humidity range that much of the lower continental US and equatorial regions throughout the world see and deal with every year without issue.

Also relating to highest temps apparently the vast majority of the all time record setters for the US happened between the late 1800's and mid 1900's with none seen since the mid 1990's. Which means those who are screaming its hotter here in the USA than ever before, um... well no apparently its not.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001416.html

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm

Poor planning and cultural phenomenon are not signs the world is ending. Its just signs that far too few don't have a clue how to plan or prepare for anything outside their comfort/safety zone.

Largely its these simple little bits of research, that most anyone can do, and the facts that they turn up that is what made me change sides from believing to being incredibly skeptical of the human factor other than the stupidity, arrogance, and icomptiance of politicians and those who follow/beleive them being a direct cause for human suffering. The climate itself is not and never has been the problem.

Reply
Anonymous Poster #2
#189
In reply to #188

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/10/2011 11:50 PM

tcmtech,

You simplify temperature rise with an irritating lack of complete comprehension.

By simplifying temperature rise as average temperatures in a locality, you miss the point. The temperature rise in a single locality is meaningless as you noted in your examples.

Think about the volume of air on the planet. Let's even shrink it down a bit. Think about the volume of air from ground to 10 meters from the ground, over the whole surface of the planet. That's a huge volume.

Now think about the energy needed to raise that volume 1 degree Fahrenheit. That's a lot of energy. It's a huge amount of energy.

The problem with increased global temperatures is not the discomfort of local weather. The problem is with the increased energy in the system. This energy manifests itself in more extreme weather: stronger storms, more storms and more extreme weather phenomena.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#190
In reply to #189

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/11/2011 4:44 AM

Actually the thermal energy levels of the atmosphere are very small compared to the energy levels imparted by the sun during the day that are then lost at night due to simple thermal radiation back into space.

Every part of the atmosphere covering the whole planet typically sees a wide range of temperature change from day to night and back again. Around most regions of the planet a day to night temperature variation of 10 - 40+ degrees F is quite common and normal at ground level with a vastly increasing range of day to night changes of around 50 - 300+ F at the upper levels of the atmosphere depending on seasonal variances.

Upper level atmospheric temperature variation from day to night. http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1928/TE033i004p00233.shtml

To me that suggests the atmosphere does not hold its thermal energy well at all and without the influences of direct solar energy the atmosphere easily and quickly releases its energy back into space. If as little as 12 hours with out direct sunlight can create that wide of cool down from the ground levels on up its seems rather clear to me a smaller temperature change is nearly imperceivable and would only minimally influence the working of the system as a whole.

Simply put I do not see a slight mathematically derived change that is spread over a vast area, that already has a very wide natural range of temperatures and energy, as being much of a influence in a system that as a whole.

Given that the planet has such a wide range of thermal energy level fluctuations from the surface levels on up and over natural regional variations from arctic to desert in such short time lines adding the energy from a few degrees F averaged out does not make much difference. Simply put adding +2 ~ 4 to a system with normal variants of +- 10 to 300 over 12 hour periods is not really that much.

Thats how I see it. Storms and changes in the weather as a whole come and go with variations in energy and size just being a normal function of the conditions at hand. It always has and always will. How those storms affect a person is entirely controlled by that persons willingness to accept and prepare for them. I accept them and I make an active attempt to be properly prepared for them which is why they do not surprize, frighten, or greatly concern me when they do happen.

P.S. At lest I don't have an issue with putting my name to my posts when I question others. You are lucky I bothered to respond to an anonymous poster at all.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster #2
#191
In reply to #190

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/11/2011 11:22 AM

It's amazing how much easier it is to have a discussion when both parties speak lucidly and attempt to make their points without personal attack. Thanks for responding in such manner despite my posting anonymously.

I called your comments irritating because there are so many people who say, "We just broke the low temperature record today! How can there be global warming?" I thought, at first, that you were one of those.

I will say that you haven't convinced me that a small average temperature rise over the huge volume that makes up our atmosphere isn't a large amount of energy.

My point is that those local variations are irrelevant to the system as a whole. What matters is that, despite the daily fluctuations in temperature and energy, the overall rise gives way to greater extremes in weather.

Do you think that melting polar ice caps does not mean there's an average temperature rise globally?

I'll be honest and say that these are my observations and not statistical studies. When I see one record from 1890 broken, it's no big deal. When I start to see many old records like that broken, I'm seeing a pattern. I feel that scientists should be studying them more.

I'll also say that there are people more knowledgeable that me (those whose opinions I respect) that are very concerned about global warming and the possible anthropomorphic effects. These are not chicken littles, they're not looking to gain fame or fortune from it. They are honestly concerned.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#192
In reply to #191

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/11/2011 11:48 AM

I think that even if they are able to prove, hands down, without question, that humans/CO2 is changing the climate.....................we will still continue to burn fossil fuels until they're gone.

Being human, right or wrong, good or bad, on a global scale, I think we'll make the determination that adapting to a changed climate will be easier than adapting to having fossil fuel removed from the energy equation.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#193
In reply to #191

Re: Solid Science Or Nut case On A Power Trip?

12/11/2011 12:26 PM

"Do you think that melting polar ice caps does not mean there's an average temperature rise globally?"

Yes the statistical average will go up because the poles are part of the data points in the equations a whole. Thats very basic statistical mathematical principal at work.

The way I see the problem is like changing the temperature of the back shed on my house. Statistically it makes up about 20% of my total floor space of my home but I keep it about 20 degrees cooler there.

If I take the 80% of my house that is at 72 F and add that 20% part that is 20 degrees cooler to it I get a statistical average of 68 degrees house temp. But its not 68 degrees in any part of my house its mostly 72 degrees and one area and 52 degrees in another. If I raise the shed temp to 72 degrees then my whole house is both statistically and actually 72 degrees. The statistical change would suggests the whole house including the shed experienced a 4 degree temp rise even though the main areas I live in saw no change in temp at all and the one area that was cooler is now far more enjoyable and comfortable to be in now.

Thats how the poles warming up will statistically alter the mathematical average despite the majority of the planet not having seen one single degree of overall change at all. Statistical average rarely coincides with the real numbers rather its just a mathematically derived value that is generally only valid onto itself.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#174

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

12/09/2011 11:41 PM

And this brings us back to why I started this thread.

When scientists develop an emotional attachment to the outcome of whatever it is they are working on and lose objectivity, it's not science anymore.........................it's the same BS drivel that the rest of us engage in, on a daily basis.

I'm over the fact that there's no santa claus, but if scientists allow themselves to stray from what the facts are telling them, then none of us have anything to believe in.........................................it all becomes pointless.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Project Managers & Project Engineers - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Midwestern United States
Posts: 844
Good Answers: 75
#194

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

03/10/2012 7:15 AM

I know this thread is a few months old but, here is a recent artical on the Keystone Pipeline.

__________________
Reuters - Investigators found that the recent thread derailment in CR4 was caused by over-weight creatures of lore and request that membership DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#195
In reply to #194

Re: Solid Science Or Nutcase On A Power Trip?

03/10/2012 7:44 AM

Man, that whole thing is a combination of political and corporate shenanigans.

The way the current administration handled it was horrible...................a total snub to Canada.

On the other hand, it's not the magic bullet that some on the right are claiming. Sure it will create some jobs, but the oil and fuel will go on the world market............not automatically lower gas prices in the US.

My main beef is the way it was handled. Lots of money ended up being wasted. I personally think it's important for us to maintain a strong and mutually beneficial relationship with our neighbors to the north. That's difficult when we thumb our noses at them.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Reply to Forum Thread Page 2 of 2: « First < Prev 1 2 Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

34point5 (1); Anonymous Hero (23); Anonymous Poster (6); Del the cat (1); Duckinthepond (1); Envelope Guy (1); FEBalicki (1); gaiatechnician (20); Garthh (15); guds777 (1); Gwen.Stouthuysen (12); JavaHead (1); jhhassociates (3); kevinm (9); kramarat (46); lyn (2); marcot (2); passingtongreen (2); phoenix911 (3); ronseto (1); Sleepy (1); SolarEagle (7); StandardsGuy (1); tcmtech (20); Usbport (1); Wal (7); WJMFIRE (7)

Previous in Forum: Free CFD package   Next in Forum: NASA Crossbow!

Advertisement