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Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 9:28 AM

Dear all. I'm trying to install a gasoline engine as assistance motor for a bicycle.The engine is honda GX25, 1 hp. 4 strokes, 7000 rpm.

Because this engine is so fast, I was looking for a way to reduce its speed. to be about 1/100= not more than 70 rpm, because I want to combine it with pedalling

All the way I asked experts about my idea that is first to reduce the speed from 7000 to about 2000 rpm ,to put on the engine's shaft a 9 tooth sprocket that should drive by chain a 35 tooth sprocket, this sprocket will in turn drive a worm reducer 1;30, and from there to drive the bicycle's chain.

All the experts thought it is a good design, and now after almost everyhing is fixed, [only to fix all this together], an engineer told me that probably this speed of 7000 rpm, might be far too fast for the chain! That the chain will suffer from this high speed, and then more experts agreed with him!

Now my questions are:

Anyway, I'm not going to make a use too much of this bicycle, I think about 5 hours a week, so even the chain wear will be faster than by lower speed, maybe the wear wouldn't be too fast. And normally I plan to use the engine not with it maximum rpm, mostly it will be half of it.

Is it possible that after few minutes of high speed the chain will be destroyed?

Since the small sprocket is so small only 9 tooth, might it be worse than bigger sprocket? But it cannot be much bigger, because the worm reducer doesn't like high speed as well!

Will lubrication extend the durability of the chain in such a speed?

If yes, does it mean that I've to add some housing for the chain to be immersed in oil?

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#1

Re: maximal drive chain speed

01/19/2012 9:36 AM

Take a look at this. It may change your mind.

Mechanical Design Handbook: Standard roller chain drive design

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#2

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 12:08 PM

So, you've got 2 chains in the design? The first is driven by a 9 tooth sprocket and it drives a 35 tooth sprocket -- this must be the one you are concerned about, right?

How many rollers does this first chain have? Let's say, for convenience, it has 80 rollers. (I figure you need 4 rollers to engage the 9 tooth sprocket, maybe 22 to engage the 35 tooth sprocket and at least 27 rollers on the sides feeding the sprockets; that gives a minimum of 80 rollers.)

If the drive sprocket with 9 teeth is spinning at 7000 rpm, then the chain is completing (9/80)*7000 = 787.5 rpm. That may still be too fast, but it's slower than 7000 rpm.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 12:29 PM

Uhm, you might want to look over that website on roller chain design, then rethink your math.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 1:09 PM

?? I guess you're saying I missed something obvious, but I looked and it didn't smack me in the face. What are you referring to?

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#14
In reply to #5

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 1:52 AM

"If the drive sprocket with 9 teeth is spinning at 7000 rpm, then the chain is completing (9/80)*7000 = 787.5 rpm."

The "chain rpm" isn't relevant to the question. Doesn't matter if the chain is 80 links or 800 links, the ratio between the drive and driven sprockets is what governs the final speed.

Of course, the chain's length and pitch is important in other factors of the design.

Tsubaki is another good source for engineering information.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 7:30 AM

I don't have a quibble with your comments, per se. But what you are complaining to me about is not what I was responding to. My response was to the OP's statement:

"...an engineer told me that probably this speed of 7000 rpm, might be far too fast for the chain!"

I simply pointed out that the chain was probably not turning at 7000 rpm. (Based on the overall phrasing of his problem, I inferred that he thought it was).

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 1:20 PM

"I simply pointed out that the chain was probably not turning at 7000 rpm. (Based on the overall phrasing of his problem, I inferred that he thought it was)."

Okay.

IMHO, the engineer was likely concerned that the sprocket speed of 7000 rpm would exceed the chain's recommended linear velocity.

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#4

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 12:47 PM
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#6

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 1:09 PM

7000 RPM has to be the wide open throttle (WOT) speed. You said you don't intend to run it flat out constantly? Can't you use the throttle mechanism to get desired assistance from the engine?

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#7

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 3:11 PM

Here are some motorcycle rpm. The rpm you propose to use should not be a problem if you acquire the proper type chain.

  1. Honda CBR250RR: 19,000 rpm
  2. Yamaha FZR250: 18,500 rpm
  3. Yamaha YZF-R6: 16,200 rpm
  4. Honda RVF400: 14,500 rpm (With HRC ECU 15,500 rpm)
  5. BMW S1000RR : 14,200 rpm
  6. Honda CBR 600F-P: 14,000 rpm
  7. Kawasaki ER-5 : 10,500 rpm
  8. Bajaj Pulsar 220F : 10,500 rpm
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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 11:20 PM

The rpm's you indicated are engine, not output.These are reduced through the gearbox and do not directly drive the chain.

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#16
In reply to #10

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 7:44 AM

Most engines high gear ratio close to 1:1. The Honda CBR250RR is 1:1.035.

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#23
In reply to #16

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 10:04 PM

that ignores the primary drive ratio of just under 3:1

http://www.cbr250rr.com.au/articles/specifications-for-the-honda-cbr250rr.html

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#8

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 10:58 PM

a googlification on the topic, drill down and read a few of these, ideas will come...

adding motors to bikes

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#9

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 11:17 PM

Perhaps you should consider belt drive instead.With a centrifugal clutch.Previous posters are correct, that is maximum speed.Your throttle will control it to a sane speed.You will find the centrifugal clutch is very helpful.Muti-shaft gearing will still be required, but it is much safer for your application.Belt drive to a chain drive output shaft , using similar ratios.A gearbox would really be better. Have you calculated the speed of your bike with rear wheel turning 70 rpm?

A 20 inch tire has a circumference of 62.82 inches, or roughly 5 feet per revolution is about 4 mph at 70 rpm..A fast walking speed.It will have a lot of torque, if you want to pull stumps or something, or pull a trailer up a hill, but kind of slow in my opinion, but I don't know your intended use.A typical bicycle runs at a relaxed speed of about 8 --10 mph.So you could reduce your final ratio to 1/50 if you wanted to.Also, you mention assisting with pedals, so you will need an over ride clutch to allow this.

Good luck!

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#11

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 11:23 PM

Don't bother with a chain. Just drive the tire by friction. Since the engine is so light (under 10 pounds) you should be able to mount it on hinges which will allow you to engage and disengage it, and result in a much simpler and less hazardous drive system. You may have to do a little machining to produce a drive rotor with the desired ratio.

This method was used successfully in engine-assisted bicycles fifty years ago. Why re-invent the wheel, or in this case, the drive mechanism? Here's a recent example:

http://www.staton-inc.com/Friction%20Drive.shtml

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 10:55 AM

GA. Bubba beat me to it. Running a small radius drive wheel against the tyre gives you a huge reduction ratio.

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#20
In reply to #11

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 5:50 PM

That's the way to do it!!

GA

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#12

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 11:27 PM

Why not totally change the question. RESTATED- you want to use an engine to assist you operating a bicycle.

Why don't you use the engine shaft output (through a gear-reduction drive) to drive a small diameter, smooth cylinder that rests (or is pushed onto) the top of your front tire? Your ratio would be the circumference of the cylinder to the circumference of the tire.

At a 26-inch wheel, assuming a medium width tire, the outside diameter would be about 29 inches, so the circumference would be about 91 inches. A 1/2" diameter cylinder would have a circumference of 1.6 inches. Ratio = 57. Using a 3:1 gear ratio connection, the NET would be a ratio of 171.

At 50% engine speed, the wheel would travel (7000 / 2) / 171 = 20.5 RPM. 20.5 RPM x 91 inches = 1866 inches per minute, or 21.2 MPH.

IF YOU HAD THE GUTS, AND CORRESPONDING DEPTH OF STUPIDITY, YOU COULD RUN THE ENGINE FLAT OUT AND ACHIEVE SOMEWHERE NEAR 42 MPH. Probably not enough to get yourself killed, but close.

At "near idle"- likely around 1200 RPM, you would cruise at about 7 MPH.

Just a thought, but a lot easier to install (and I think safer) than chain drive.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/19/2012 11:43 PM

I can't use the friction drive, because I don't need speed, I want to use the mountain bike abilities, to bike up steep slopes that 30 years ago I could bike only with my muscles and fitness!

azi

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 10:29 AM

If that is your focus- use a similar "simple" gear reduction and drive the chain connected to your rear axle and use the multi-speed, change-on-the-fly derailleur that comes with such a bike would very likely meet your needs for both "power" and speed- since you would have both engine speed and gearing.

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#21
In reply to #13

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 5:52 PM

...and now he tells us!!!!

DUUUUHHHHHH!

The friction drive is still the way to do it!!!!

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#22
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Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/20/2012 6:02 PM

bubba, robin, andy and I all agree.

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#25
In reply to #13

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/21/2012 3:58 PM

"I can't use the friction drive, because I don't need speed, I want to use the mountain bike abilities, to bike up steep slopes that 30 years ago I could bike only with my muscles and fitness!"

If you're talking about actual mountain-bike dirt trails, then something like a friction drive may be best. The driving wheel is subject to considerable slip/stick action, so a direct drive is going to transmit extremely high shock loads between the engine/transmission and the sprocket/wheel. With lightweight bicycle components, this translates to broken parts!

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/21/2012 11:50 PM

Well,I introduced in a wrong way the situation.I want a speed range from 5 up to 30 km/h!{I may compromise the fastest to 25!

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/22/2012 12:19 AM

what is your maximum grade [incline]?

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/22/2012 1:08 AM

You can always throttle back.

Your car can can do 100MPH++ it doesn't mean you have to do it.

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#30
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Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/23/2012 10:47 AM

Buy a gas-gas or similar.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/23/2012 3:43 PM

That (image of the trials bike) raises another issue -- Nearly all MTB trails are restricted to non-motorized vehicles (in California). If "az native" is planning to ride the modified bicycle on public lands, he may be in for an expensive citation.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/23/2012 10:41 PM

Yeah, last time I rode in the dirt in California was back in the mid-eighties at Hollister. PCS'ed out of NoCal a few months before the big quake in 89. Been a member of the AMA for many, many years and have watched with great dismay as the greenies have systematically shut down more and more terrain to protect the endangered hump-back variegated sand flea and other significant species.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/23/2012 8:01 PM

If climbing steep slopes is the objective

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#24

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/21/2012 3:27 AM

A bobbin off the crank and straight onto the wheel is the easy way to do it and has been done a lot.

As recommended by others search the www, there a loads of different drive systems that have been tried.

If you drive the front wheel of the bike with an engine and pedal at the same time you will have a 2x2.

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#29

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/23/2012 1:57 AM

Check the Honda GX25 engine specs again. I suggest you will find that the 1HP is produced at 7,000rpm.

The engine itself will operate from an idle [I'm guessing] of about 700rpm.

Some locals around here use similar set-ups on their bicycles, by using a belt drive from a pulley of about 50mm dia [engine] driving to a larger pulley of about 150mm dia at the rear hub of the bicycle.

Sure beats worm drives etc.

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#34

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/23/2012 11:15 PM

Instead of augmenting the bike why not augment the rider?

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/24/2012 12:56 AM

Don't think that I didn't think about this!

As I became frustrated of my poor phisycal abilities due my enlarged heart, and atrial fibrilation and aging [73]!

I even came up with the idea of heart assistance pump implanting..

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/24/2012 10:00 PM

That's the way!

Splice a pump into an artery with some drip-less quick connects...

Scalable solution that. Could Stick on an external intercooler as well to help keep the blood cool. Vodka dosing pump there too...

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/24/2012 11:28 PM

About 35 years ago ,I had a nice conversation with a cardiologist about the heart and the veins, I could undestand very well what was he talking about, because the problems that he faced with the blood sistem, I faced as I worked in irrigaton in the cotton fields.

But, we had no water clotting in the pipes, instead we had sometimes fish in the pipes...

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/25/2012 2:31 AM

I've got clotted sewers and arteries full of marauding alligators....

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/25/2012 4:13 AM

phnop phan should exist crocs, not gators I think!

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Maximal Drive Chain Speed

01/25/2012 6:12 AM

True.

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