Precision Food Cutting Machinery

This has some good information. Including methods to overcome the stickiness. See the chapter on processing.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Dates.html?id=gZah4jmWlGUC

Thanks for the useful link about dates but 'dates' are already dried or

dried and not exactly the starting material here for portioning.

The book mentions it as

Chhohara or kharak (khalaal matbukh)on page 453..without stating its equivalent

Latin or English name. (however I found it's English name, Dates Dry skin http://www.indiacurry.com/Miscel/glossary.htm It is this ' dates dry skin ' or chhohara which is desired

to be cut into small pieces through an automatic and bulk-fed process.

If you are accustomed with Indo-Pak condiments you will know that

bits of roasted chhohara's are added to a mix of betel nut, almonds,fennel and

other dried dried fruits/herbs, usually sachet-packed (10gms/sachet or so) and commonly

sold as mouth freshening condiment (sweetened/scented Chalia Saunf supari mix) or Mewa, as it is known in this part of the world or where ever Indics, Pakistanis or Bangla deshis

live. It's a high volume industry in Pakistan and has potential here as well

as many other countries of the world where people from the East live.

I think it is worthwhile for engineers and inventors to brainstorm this topic and

let the world have a suitable machine for this ever-growing large industry!

Here is the picture of Chhohara's or Kharak as they are generally called

http://www.easygroceryoncall.com/kharak.html

and here is the final product where kharak is used...

http://www.kuberfoods.com/mouthfreshner_gallery

http://www.google.com.pk/search?q=dates+dry+skin%2Bimages&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UI0qT5uUAYv74QTx6IyoDg&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQsAQ&biw=1152&bih=668#hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=+saunf+supari%2Bmewa%2B%2Bimages&pbx=1&oq=+saunf+supari%2Bmewa%2B%2Bimages&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=21540l32382l0l34478l19l19l0l0l0l15l1361l14487l3-1.5.5.3.5l19l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=343ef863d836229c&biw=1152&bih=668

I saw a program on TV that showed how they make enchiladas. This was a plant in the U.S. employing workers to manually fill and wrap enchiladas. I've seen similar operations where machines did the work rather than humans. Could be the plant owners didn't want to invest in machinery to do the job, but could go to full automation at a future time. In 3rd world countries and emerging economies, processors have to weigh the cost of labor against automation costs and see which is cheaper.

Ravioli machines are common in Russia and they are equipped

with an automatic filling/stuffing system. Nowadays fully automatic

machines are made by China for all sorts of Asian snacks which

require stuffing such as Samosa's, dumplings, wontons,

Chinese rolls etc etc.

Hygiene and consistent quality is of prime importance in food manufacture and this can't be fully availed in manual processing even if cheap labor is available.

It's quite a time that even 3rd world countries have opted for automation

in food and fish industries to meet International Quality and Hygiene requirements.

Unless they did that they would not be able to sell their products to

rich countries. Perhaps this is why companies are required to be approved

by USFDA, EU and meet ISO requirements.

When a processed or reprocessed product is bought through vendors one never knows if the product is raised from fresh crop or infected material. This is a cause

of major concern to most companies and they want to process the initial

raw material (one of the ingredients) on their own so as to be sure of their final product quality. Then producers of products from organic stuff

realize that they could make good profits during bumper crop if they had

machines to handle the input as handling the input manually surely delays

the process as well as reflects upon quality.

Present Industry (mouth freshening condiments) is a fully grown up industry

and desperately needs a machine that can solve their dried date cutting

problem. Actually one of the leading producer of this product is looking for

a suitable machine and experimenting with all sorts of cutters and

systems but to no avail. Dates portioning machines are not available

in market though I checked with one famous precise food cutting machinery maker who claimed they had one for the purpose but

never came back with positive response. Similarly there are other items

which have to be processed before they could be added to the final product.

One such problematic item is Almonds...the industry needs an automatic

precise cutting machine to cut almond seeds (mixed sizes) transversally into halves.

I am also working on it and wonder if someone has a better idea??

First thought in my mind is to use high or very high air pressure. It doesn't get dull over time, and doesn't care what it cuts ( be it fingers or dates ). Sanitary is there also.Any configuration that you could desire is also there. Conveyor can be constantly cleaned and disinfected via whatever method you choose. As for mixing good dates with bad dates... I know nothing from dates, other than that they taste good. Maybe "good" ones float and "bad" ones do not in water or some other media and can be skimmed or not, depending on the case. There is probably a company or six out there that can provide you with just what you need to accomplish your goals.They may want a lot of money for their product just because it is not "main stream". Someone somewhere spent a lot time and money to develop a unit to suit your needs. I did not research the web to attempt to locate one. If it is out there in the world, purchase it and be happy that is was available. If it is not available, get yourself a couple or few tons of dates and have some fun making one, or hire an engineer with some talent to make a machine specifically for you. There are a lot of folks on this site that would like to have the work..... and get paid for it......or ... invent it yourself and you can be the gazillionair .....

Thanks, I like you suggestion-yes, the taste of the date lies in its eating!;)

Air cutting may not be workable for cutting a small item like dates

en mass. Better for me to work on it if someone else is not available.

My bad, I do have some ideas but do not have the facility

to implement them! A little exchange of information here might, I think,

will be useful before I embarked on this project on my own.

Anyway, thanks again for your comment.

That's a good idea. It would chop the dates and leave the pits intact.

A quick look doesn't turn up anything........................an invention waiting to happen?

What about an industrial laser (very tight beam) set to pivot across the rows of dates with conveyors on either side- set lower on the output side.

A water bath would "contain" the terminal beam.

I am not sure if that will work or would be manageable at reasonable

cost and effort.

Portioning of dry dates consists of two processes

1. they have to be stoned or destoned.

2. sliced or cut into small bits

I would prefer to opt for a mechanical system, a less complicated system

which could be handled with ease in 3rd world countries by semi-skilled

workers.

How about stage-wise pressing dates between rollers (such as the

pasta rolls) and then reducing it to bits through

some kinda wet die cutting? Of course, in this case stones have to be removed

first by some other method, such as running dates in a single line on a conveyor

fitted on top with a doctor blade or a circular cutter

for locating and slitting them on one side continuously.

After the dates are slit they could be passed over some kinda shaker

/ detacher (could be some kinda slow impact hammer mill?) which in turn loosens and removes the dates??

Here is the url for a renowned precision food cutting machine manufacturer with whom

I inquired about supplying me such machines many years ago but they didn't seem to bother!!

http://www.virtualmarket.fruitlogistica.de/?Action=showCompany&id=75738&locale=en_GB

Perhaps they would respond to queries from someone

living in rich countries!! wonder if someone here would consider giving them a 'tough

time' to consider possibility of supplying a suitable machine

for cutting/dicing dry dates as well ??

It is highly unlikely stones will 'shake out'.

Pitting stone fruit is conventionally done with a cruciform plunger. I suggest you buy some pitted olives or similar pitted product and look at the evidence. Alignment is the tricky bit for this process.

After pitting you have many cutting options from press knives to gang saws to rotary blades.

I have tried all sorts of knives and cutters, but to no avail. They readily get gummied and blunt. Moreover, while cutting with rotary knives or blades such as with a toothed-shredder, hasher or plastic cutting mill, the dates get clogged and material gets agglomeration and jams the machine. Dry date skins are extremely gummy and unctuous. No way with any knife!!(of course wet-cutting might help but I haven't tried that yet due to non-water proof design of cutting mills i used in my experiments. However, I think I must try some fish hasher to test how chhuhara's behave when cut with wet rotating knife hashers!! )

Band knives (like a toothless band saw blade/machine) with scrapers, may be your best option. You probably need some sort of cutting fluid/cleaning solvent, but not much will get into the product - compared to water cutting, or immersed cutting, processes.

Band knives are also equipped with 'self sharpening' systems.

A couple of questions;

How well does date "gummy" stick to "Teflon", or in fact, polyethylene and/or propylene?

What, if any effect, does water misting have on product and or surfaces/handling?

Thanks,

I already said NO knife will work on dates...it gets smeared with layers of strongly gummy substance just like bitumen and goes blunt very soon.It is also quite impossible to wipe off the blade.

Sprinkling water on dates will not spoil the dates which subsequently have to be roasted. I have no idea of any other solvent.

I have not tested it on Teflon or other plastics but I think dates will stick to them as well. Anyway, I will try to cut some dates with a Teflon coated knife and see how it fares.

What you actually mean is "I already said NO knife [I know of] will work on dates"

Before you get CAPS LOCK with me, it's a good idea to research what I said and think about why I'm telling you something.

OMG you seem to misunderstand me! I have tried all types of blades and cutters (after heavy research on mechanical aspect, though) but to no avail for aforestated reason. This is a simple statement and am sorry if you got offended by it.

Did you try a "band knife"? Did you find out what a "band knife" is?

No knife will work on dates.....

Do you think it would work on snap frozen dates? I do! We usually have dates in the pantry just not right now. I'll buy some today and freeze them and then dice them then send a photo and then possibly not even get a thank you.

These date cubes end up in a fruit mix? Look, I haven't read all the posts and don't even know where you are. If you were next door we'd be cutting cubes by the end of next week. Any size you like and from anything ending up on a table.

Try it today and don't worry about the sticky knife, I go that covered.

Good luck, Ky.

Not a bad idea at all!! I will try and request you s well to let me have your results too.

Thank you in advance:)

I know the results and you will find that it works. I'll leave the sticky knife with you for the time being but in general were there is a knife there is a way.

It drives me mad (It used to) when I see/saw people cut calamaris in a not ^semi frozen state. How can they get accuracy using a wobbly mass? Not to mention the mess.

As instructed Chef! Yes Chef.

So, were are you mate?

Request:

These were cut frozen solid. A little less would have done and maybe a little oil on the blade would help if you got a ton of it. Dry as a bone, Ky.

NOW we are back to my latest post (14) on flash-freezing and fracturing them.

Sure I must look into olive processing for some 'tips' ...However, the texture of olives is at contrast with the gummy dry date skins....

Yes, locating should be great problem for dry dates to be stoned....

I am interested devising or obtaining a machine that is bulk fed and cuts the dates into pre-determined small portions without too many fines!!

The flesh of the dates could be shredded off the stone with a suitable tumbling scraper arrangement. An overly aggressive automatic potato peeler comes to mind.

The stones are then rejected.

The resulting flesh product would not have the nice cubic form you described but would resemble a stringy paste. The paste could then be pressed into slabs for slicing and dicing as required.

Mazhur,

I came across this discussion quite by accident and was intrigued.

Have you considered using water jet cutting technology?

The working fluid could contain the normally used 6% aqueous cold water soluble starch or 3% methyl cellulose if needed, and perhaps any appropriate, edible,preservative. The water could be recycled and any residue filtered out and reused as feed.

I do not know what a water jet would do when it strikes a pit. I would think that the cutting pressure could be set such that only the date meat is cut; the jet may then pass around the pit and separate the meat.

There are many scenarios for such a system.

I hope to read more about your quest.

Have fun,

Don

P.S. I am concerned about all of the people now making a living(?) pitting dates. What will happen to them?

They would make a good workforce to administer to your machine.

Thanks but who will pay the dearly pitters??:)

Nitrogen freezing is good but it's too expensive and not readily-not even Nitrogen generators- available in a 3rd world country like Pakistan. Hence thinking on this line wouldn't be workable.

I assume that "industrial refrigeration" exists in Pakistan.

SO- if you don't want to "flash freeze" the dates, just FREEZE THEM at about -5C.

You just constantly load one end of the freezer with trays and- about 6 hours later- unload the frozen trays into a feed hopper and send the tray back to "load" station.

An internal set of conveyors move the dates through the freezer, so it is just a "medium size" box in the plant.

Thanks but Pakistan is already facing serious energy crisis. Using electricity for running plate freezers or blast freezers then the contingency of holding some of the product in a sub zero cold storage would reflect on cost of production which doesn't seem to be economical or worth the effort.In my opinion a machine that is simply mechanical in nature would be workable under the conditions prevalent in this part of the world where there is little electricity for houses and where most of the power-intensive industries have already shut down and moved down to Bangla Desh! On top of it, the less dedicated labor makes things more difficult to maintain standard.

I appreciate your idea but am afraid it would be too costly and not suitable for 3rd world countries or where freezing facility is already not available (such as a fish/shrimp processing plant which I ran for more than 20 years)

That is why I talked about a CoGeneration system that is essentially a push-button start and watch it run.

Another alternative-

Flash freeze the "raw" (seeded) dates in something like liquid nitrogen, then run the solid fruits through a set of rollers adjusted tight enough to not crush/break the pit. I believe that the pits would likely not freeze (relatively little water content and "insulated" by the date "meat" so they would likely not fracture but just flex.

The dates would fracture into relatively small pieces (removed with a screen sifter conveyor to a second conveyor running below that would take them to packing and the pits would continue to a receiving bin for transport to a digester (to make methane to power up the small CoGen system that you will definitely want so you can be green).

Part of the power from the CoGen would drive the compressor/condenser to make a continuous supply of liquid nitrogen and the rest would power lights and the conveyor. The thermal output would make hot water for wash down, etc.

The frozen dates would not "gum up" the processing system or the packing system AND- if this processing location was located in a "warm" climate- the cold dates would provide some comfort conditioning for the workers.

A LITTLE "OUT OF THE BOX" BUT THAT IS HOW PROGRESS HAPPENS.

Sorry mate. No plagiarism intended . It's just too banal to read all the posts. We good again?

we cool- as always

Thanks for this interesting problem. I suppose your plant receives the dates in a state where they could be re-hydrated to make them easier to process. Coffee processing, where the pulp has to be separated from the beans, could have some solutions that might be adapted to dates. Extruding the date paste through a series of nozzles might shear off the pulp from the seeds, such that by the last nozzle what passes is mostly seeds. Low tech and simple bulk processing of re-hydrated dates, in a slurry squeezed through nozzles, should be easy and inexpensive to develop.

It is quite simple to extrude pre-stoned dates through an extruder or even a vermicelli machine and cut into pellets but that would spoil the very texture of dates and render them unfit for roasting or use. This method is applied in making pellets for pet food!!

I thought part of the problem was removing the stones because the dates are not pre-stoned.

Not being a date gourmet, I don't understand your points about pet food and about extruded dates being "unfit for roasting or use" because their texture has been spoiled. What features in dried date texture are important, and how are these desirable features spoiled by extrusion? When cut into small pieces, and mixed with other ingredients as you intend for sale to a mass market, will this texture degradation be so noticeable as to be a big disadvantage?

Dry date mince is not acceptable to the Industry. The reason being that small portions may not be suitable for roasting or change in their texture does not appeal to the consumer taste.

Extruded date pellets are fine for pet food...which can be a blend of dates, flour, soya or any other ingredient acceptable to animal taste.

OK, so I understand that conventional date mince in a dry state is unacceptable. Why? Because conventionally the seeds are ground up with the dates? Is there some issue about not being able to tell if there are seeds if it's dry and not sticky?

The liquid nitrogen idea sounds cool, if you insist only on cutting and disqualify consideration of extrusion and pelletizing. Pelletized pure sticky date pulp candy of a commercially acceptable quality because it has no seeds ....?

Yes, destoning is one of the problems.

As minced meat feels different to meat chunk so do minced dates to the palate. I have not tried but think minced date pellets will become hard after roasting and their feel and texture would be repugnant to the palate.

Evidently it appears that this machine would solve the stoning process...I will contact the manufacturer for further information and even ask them to try out their machine on Chhuhaara's before i buy one for trial.

Thanks for the search and help.:)

GA

I note it's rated in "strokes" and uses water as a prep lubricant

Gee, I wonder how it works?

I have ust sent Ashlock an inquiry and will probly get their reply by tomorrow. Let's wait and see what they 'claim''!!

BTW I think their machine works on the foll priciple

1. Locating the dates in position

2. Hammering out the stones

Or alternatively,

1. Locating the dates in position

2. Ripping them to open on one side

3. Squeezing out the stone from the slit.

I guess we'll find out how it really works soon enough.

I found that machine by searching for "prune pitter". Pitted prunes were a product I was more familiar with and remembered that they were very intact and seedless. I figured if you could do a prune then a date would be similar.

sorry folks, Ashlock have not responded yet to my inquiry and I don't think they will ever.

Can anybody in their country try to inquire from their country-men?? Perhaps they might thus be able to 'stir' their courtesy!:)