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Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/24/2012 7:23 PM

After about a week of searching...however vague the attempt...I must humble myself to the collective...please be nice.

I would like a "documented" and definitive source for this symbol. It appears on our as-builts from 1984. I know it indicates a CT neutral bond for incoming power, but I haven't seen it indicated like this elsewhere. I have found similar symbols in DoE publications, but not exactly like this one.

Where is the symbol sourced from, who invented/used it (aside from HDR, the firm which produced the drawings)? Is this just their interpretation?

This is the DoE CT I found:

This is the DoE PT I found:

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#1

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/24/2012 9:53 PM

Looks Chinese....maybe alien...

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#2

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/24/2012 10:24 PM

Are you referring to the fuse symbol?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_%28electrical%29

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#3

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/24/2012 10:41 PM
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#16
In reply to #3

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/27/2012 9:06 AM

That is Lyn.

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#4

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/25/2012 12:01 AM

For all we can tell, this may be a symbol for showing in a single-line diagram a fuse feeding a transformer primary.

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#5

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/25/2012 12:42 AM

Could be a fuse for indicator light...

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#6

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/25/2012 3:10 AM

HDR don't have intrests in fishing by any chance? It looks like the symbol for a Lure!

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#7

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/25/2012 8:26 AM

According to my ARRL handbook, 1961, that oblong thing is a U.S.A. fuse symbol. You say it is "a CT neutral bond for incoming power" which is not crystal clear.

Bond to what? Ground?

Is it a bond conductor from neutral to ground with a CT around it?

Or is the bond from the CT secondary to neutral or ground, via the "fuse".

I have always regarded it as customary to ground CT secondary circuits, to stop them getting dangerous voltage via their capacitance or insulation failure.

This is often via a removable link, to allow insulation testing. Physically, this has been done with a solid link in place of a fuse, in a fuse carrier - but the symbol is different to a fuse and the circuit ident is LK.. not FS.. to avoid error (holders also paint marked white), because fitting a fuse in an earth connection is bad practice [practically illegal].

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#18
In reply to #7

Re: Help to identify this schematic symbol

02/27/2012 1:33 PM

I recognize a portion of the symbol to look like the symbol for a fuse. The drawing states "...Connect neutral bus to ground bus at one place only thru (sic) CT for ground fault protection."

For all apparent intentions, this is the service bond for the facility. That is partly why I don't understand why a fuse would appear in that function...that would be illegal and just plain silly in my mind. No value appears for it (the "fuse") any where in the drawing set.

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#8

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/25/2012 9:05 AM

Looks like a kelp anchor to me.

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#9

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/25/2012 10:10 AM

Tis a cod jigger, b'y.

Or maybe it's a symbol for 'where to put your parasitic bug', DoE.

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#10

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/25/2012 12:16 PM

The "Double Hump" symbol is a "Potential Device", meaning a transformer, either a Current Transformer (CT) or a Potential Transformer (PT) depending on what else is shown with it. The rectangular box within a box is a fuse symbol. It's all laid out in ANSI-Y32 or IEEE-315 standards.

So the one you are asking about is a fused PT, not a CT, you would NEVER put a fuse on a CT circuit. A CT symbol would have the line power going through the humped part. The 2nd symbol you reference IS a CT, but I have no idea what the "R" in a circle means on that. An R in a circle usually means a Relay, so maybe it's a Current Sensing Relay, but it might also be something specific to the drawing you took it from and there would have been a legend somewhere.

The other symbol you found with the "4160/120V" next to it is also a potential device but not fused and again I'm not sure what the "R" symbol means. Again, maybe a Voltage Relay, but also maybe a Resistor network on an MV system so that the primary of the PT is not the same potential as the line? Red pilot light on the 120V side of the PT just to indicate the presence of line power? That's all just speculation without knowing the context and again, a good designer will include a symbol index/legend usually as one of the first two drawings in a set.

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#17
In reply to #10

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/27/2012 12:22 PM

You are correct that the first symbol is a fused PT, but only showing the primary side. In a fairly high level 1-line drawing, the details of what are on the secondary side may not be shown.

The second is a CT with relay(s) that require a current input. Usually the "R" is replaced by the ANSI device number representing the type of relay (e.g., 50 for instantaneous overcurrent, 51 for time overcurrent, etc.). In the case of the OP's example, it's from a generic set of symbol examples, so they jsut used R.

The third is a PT with relay, similar to the way the CT is done.

These examples are pretty common ways of drawing the items in electrical power 1-line ddiagrams.

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#20
In reply to #10

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/27/2012 2:02 PM

Raef...thanks

My symbol that needs defining is the first one. The other two symbols were from the only reference which appeared similar. My drawing indicates (infers) this as the service bond for the facility. This does not makes sense to me. Nowhere else in the drawing set is a bond indicated. Short of powering down the facility I have no way to verify the ground and/or CT arrangement indicated.

As to your NEVER statement...that only adds to the mystery. The callout for that connection states "Connect neutral bus to ground bus at one place ony thru (sic) CT for ground fault protection."

The symbol index/legend does not include this symbol...quite frustrating.

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#23
In reply to #20

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/28/2012 8:33 AM

It appears from your explanation that someone chose the wrong symbol to use at your neutral to ground bonding point. It should just have been a straight line with a ground symbol at the end. It would not have a fuse in it. It would have a CT with relay similar to your second symbol, to detect current on the neutral above some specified limit for phase unbalance or ground fault detection.

Your note suggests the correct physical construction, that the neutral to ground connection be made "through" (the primary window of) a CT, the secondary of which is connected to a GF relay. They just drew it wrong.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/28/2012 3:54 PM

Unfortunately for me this is a single line diagram which does not normally indicate individual phase/neutral/ground wires. This symbol appears on each (3) individual bus for the switchgear, however other drawings indicate the wye/ground connection point (in graphic format, not schematic). Nowhere on the drawings is the neutral/ground connection actually indicated.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/28/2012 5:56 PM

Having read your description, cuba pete, and the various comments, I think this will only be solved by examining the wiring diagrams/circuit diagrams or tracing the actual wiring physically/by a cabling diagram.

Probably one of those cases where a single line was drawn at an early stage, but no-one ever went back and made sure it showed "as-built".

For example, first thought was neutral grounding via a PT or power transformer with secondary resistor (hence the fuse) but it ended solidly grounded with a ground fault CT and current relay. Then the description was changed, but not the symbols (someone marked-up the drawing with words, without changing the symbol, and the draughtsman just changed what was marked).

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#11

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/25/2012 10:50 PM

Newark has a section on Symbols.

The symbol for a potential transformer is shown.

See this link :

http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/eatonCH/ElectricalSymbols.pdf

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/26/2012 10:43 AM

Thanks to you and to JRaef for the links.

Where did I miss out? I've been working in electronics for over 60 years, and I had never heard of nor seen a 'single line diagram'. Are they used for power distribution and control?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/26/2012 11:18 AM

Electronics and power distribution are very closely related fields, but each has it's own particular symbol set.

For instance, I have seen normally open contacts interpreted as a capacitor by some techs, and electricians that would never use a black wire for ground, or a white wire for signal.

I have had the good fortune to work in both fields for over 50 years,as well as pneumatics, hydraulics, process controls(PID's) but they come up with new and strange(to me) symbols every day.

NPN,PNP, UJT, SCS, SCR, EMODE JFet, DMode JFET,TRIAC,Zener, just to name a few would be totally foreign to electricians.

What we recognize often dates us.

What modern tech would recognize the symbol for the various vacuum tubes,

or a selenium rectifier?

I am sure there are many I would not recognize also..

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/26/2012 11:44 AM

Yes, one-line diagrams are used in power distribution, not "bit twiddling". As a power engineer i had to learn all about electronic symbols, yet one can get a complete EE degree focused on electronics now and never come across this. It's not as uncommon as you might think.

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#21
In reply to #12

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/27/2012 2:05 PM

Yes, power distribution for facilities...hotel and technical power...is usually referred to as a "one line" or "single line" diagram. All of my time has been in the US military, so maybe that is peculiar to us.

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#15

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/26/2012 3:45 PM

Please note (riot act): Posting of Masonic/Satanic/Illuminati symbols is against CR4 Policy and a reportable offense resulting in revocation of membership. CR4 is an enabler of the mainstream engineering community discussion and specification and any violations....

LOL.

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#22
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Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/27/2012 2:06 PM

shh...it's a secret membership

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#19

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/27/2012 1:52 PM

And I thought sure it was the symbol for a blind lion. Live and learn.

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#25

Re: Help to Identify This Schematic Symbol

02/28/2012 5:41 PM

The problem is, there is no "official" single line diagram symbol that is designated for a Zero Sequence CT for a GF relay setup. So people essentially have to choose their own way of depicting it. To top it off, single line diagrams almost never show ground or neutral connections, they are intended to depict power distribution. So they will show "one line" for power and then describe it as 3 wire or 4 wire, with or without ground, but not necessarilly depict them. If so, then depicting a Zero Sequence CT in which the Neutral must pass through it along with all 3 power lines becomes a "challenging" choice. Then for clarity they (should) also show an actual wiring diagram that will specifically depict how they expect it to be connected.

This person chose poorly.

Typically on the One Line, I just show a standard CT symbol and put a notation next to it that says ZSCT, then show it connected to a rectangle that says "GFP" for Ground Fault Protection (or GFR for "Relay") with a connection to a circuit breaker Shunt Trip symbol (if it has such).

Something like this:

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