General Motors Boldly Marches Into France

As long as this doesn't go the same direction as SAAB...then they should be okay. But, after all, GM posted a huge profit the following quarter after shaving SAAB's assets and dumping them off the deep end.

Bon Voyage!

Between potential technology advances and economics, I'm sure there's a reason....................and I'm sure they think it's a good one. I'd just like to gleen some information on why they think so.

I agree with Cuba Pete. GM is doing what Sears Roebuck did or still does. Sears would contract for a product to be made for them. This was based on the lowest bid from manufacturers. The contract would contain a clause stating that the product could only be made for Sears and they could not provide manufacturing services for anyone else. This was fine for as long as Sears was making a profit. Overnight, they would cancel out and go to another manufacturer. Sears would now be in a position to put them out of business by effectively eliminating the competition.

I heard about this practice many years ago and I may not be completely accurate as to the details. At any rate, although it may not be illegal, it sure is unscrupulous.

Interesting.

It's amazing how many things go on, that we are completely clueless about.

So this entire maneuver could potentially be about putting Peugeot/Citroen out of business to create more business for GM? Maybe Opel?

As usual, I'll take a look at some of the UK sites. They typically contain much more accurate reports than what I can find here.

"So this entire maneuver could potentially be about putting Peugeot/Citroen out of business to create more business for GM?"

Your conspiracy theories are ridiculous...

"On 29 February 2012, PSA formally announced the creation of a major alliance with General Motors (GM), as part of which GM became PSA's second-largest shareholder, after the Peugeot family, with a holding of 7%. The alliance is intended to enable £1.3 billion per year of cost savings through platform sharing, common purchasing and other economies of scale.^[9]"

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Peugeot_Citro%C3%ABn}

No theories there.

It was a question that I asked based on ronsetto's post. You must have misread...............................again.

You are very naive if you think that companies don't do things like what ron described. Although I envy the simple life that you must live by taking everything at face value. You are a good citizen.

If I took "everything at face value", we wouldn't be having this conversation...

Are you having a bad week, or did you find out your girlfriend isn't real?

LOL, I live on the beach in Florida, what's a bad week?

Rain, 50 degree days, Clouds, Canadian turists.

Volt looking like a wash??? Compared to Corvette first year sales, the Volt is out selling the corvette better than 20 to 1... and this year is looking even better....You may have misunderstood the situation of recent production slowdown to mean sales were not going well...They suspended production last year to streamline production process to increase number of units they could produce, in order to gear up production...They were targeting 45,000 units for second year sales after first year sales were so robust, extremely optimistic in this economy...

Oh.

I was sort of eliminating fleet sales to the government and GE, and taking the $7000 government credit into account, to gauge actual consumer demand..............which seemed a little weak.

I like your cheery outlook. Do you think we can stop subsidizing them?

"actual consumer demand..............which seemed a little weak."

Compared to what? I think they are doing quite well for a new concept...This is the first of it's kind, I think....isn't it? I think the subsidies are a good idea, it rewards early adopters...

Yeah, in some cases twice.

Dealers buy the cars for employees to drive to showcase the new technology, this is not a new practice...This is misleading sensationalism, by an overzealous reporter, with no grounds for support...Those few people that will try to scam the government out of money will always exist....and certainly not restricted to rebates and tax credits...Why are you throwing rocks at this technology?

I'm not throwing rocks at the technology any more than questioning Solyndra would be throwing rocks at solar power.

I will admit that I'm not a big fan of government mandates, subsidies, and giveaways in order to launch a product by a private company.................particularly by a government that has no money, and is in tremendous debt.

With this particular thread, as an involuntary shareholder, I would like to get to the bottom of this recent purchase in France.

I think all US taxpayers have a vested interest in GM's survival. I would like to see them thrive. Don't take it personally if questions get asked along the way as to how they aim to achieve that goal.

By taking the bailout money, they made their business, our business.

It is intended to be a cost saving measure. GM has lost tonnes of money in Europe for many years, and hopes to do better with this partnership. Peugeot needed the capital. Everyone wins, in theory.

I've got a buddy down there in Atlanta that is an Opel fanatic. Even belongs to the club. I think he has a 70 or 71 model...................bright orange. I wonder why GM has been hemorrhaging money in Europe?

This could end up being the best deal of the century or another major blunder.

Well from your response I get the idea that you think you have some stake in GM, and some interest in seeing them succeed with their business model...So why are you posting rhetoric that seeks to undermine that goal ? albeit pathetically weak in this attempt...

Um................do I jump on your "what is it?" threads, and point out the fact that they accomplish nothing?

The way I see it, as a member of this forum, I've got access to boots on the ground over in Europe. I would like to know what's being said about this acquisition on the other side of the pond. This would include news releases, new product information, and the word on the street.

If you don't like my approach, why don't you just unsubscribe from this thread before you end up embarrassing yourself?

Some of us ask, "Why?"

I've also driven GM products for my entire life and kept up with their triumphs and blunders for more than three decades..........................so yeah.............I'd like to know what's going on.

Yeah, well I'm not buyin' that....Sounds to me like yer badmouthin' The Volt and then when challenged you can't back it up.. ...You can say pretty much whatever you want on these threads, but when challenged, if you can't back it up with facts, then your credibility suffers....Now you said the Volt wasn't doing well, but offered no concrete evidence to back it up....I offered evidence that it was in fact doing well and offered some explanation for the anecdotal evidence you presented....Now you're trying to threaten me in some way because I question your motive? What am I to think?

Would you buy it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

Does this work for backup?

You love and trust your government don't you?

Your expensive Volt doesn't even appear on the list.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best-worst.shtml

I'd take the Prius.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31836&id=31618

The real world average is 137.3 mpg for the Volt...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=yourMpgVehicle&id=31618

The real world average is 51.1 for the Prius...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=yourMpgVehicle&id=31767

The volt has nearly twice the torque of the Prius, and a slew of other creature comforts...

"Feb 1, 2011 ... In January, General Motors sold 321 Chevrolet Volt cars. Meanwhile, Nissan, its fiercest electric car competitor, has sold just 87 Leaf cars in the"

"Jan 4, 2012 ... General Motors sold 1529 battery-powered Chevrolet Volt cars in December, a 34% increase from the prior month..."

These are from your link....

"Why don't you start a thread about how awesome they are?"

But you're already doing such a good job here....

I'd still buy the Prius.

I don't think the Volt will ever present a serious source of cash for GM. Continuing to prop it up with tax dollars is probably going to end up being another monumental waste.

I think you're assuming that I want GM to fail. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm disappointed in them for saddling up to the government, and I think that relationship has steered the focus away from developing profitable automobiles. I still have faith though. I hope the recent acquisition helps them make serious inroads into Europe and beyond.

GM is currently number one....

"In 2010, General Motors ranked second on the list with 8.5 million units produced globally.^[24] In 2011 GM returned to the first place with 9.025 million units sold worldwide, corresponding to 11.9% market share of the global motor vehicle industry. The top two markets in 2011 were the United States, with 2,503,820 vehicles sold, and China, with 2,547,203 units. The Chevrolet brand was the main contributor to GM performance, with 4.76 million vehicles sold around the world in 2011, a global sales record.^[25]"

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors}

That's excellent! What did the Volt contribute to those numbers?

They could be doing even better. The problem with making a pact with the devil, (government), is that they have to make cars that make the government happy as opposed to cars that make the customers happy.

All is not lost though. About all car companies that sell in the US will have to have an electric/hybrid division. Not to make money, but to bring the average MPG for the entire fleet to within the stringent CAFE standards......................so the Volt or something similar will always be around. It's the cost of doing business in the US. They don't even have to sell them, they just have to have them available.

The Volt is, at least, a good experiment. As batteries improve the technology will be more viable. The average vehicle sells for over $30,000. A decent compact around half of that, without the bells and whistles. Watch the worldwide and USA sales of the Nissan Leaf. All electric is another way for many to go. I favor natural gas, but would consider one of each.

eliminating fleet sales to the government and GE,

Where else do you think that new technology can be real world evaluated?

They over-produced...this gives them a good opportunity to stop the line to change the production run.

The news took this the entirely wrong direction. Sales were decent up until this media blitz...there is plenty of stock and there are zero issues with the vehicle.

CNN just thinks the sky is falling.

The Mackinac Center doesn't understand economics at all...I think maybe George Bailey with his mama dollar and papa dollar need to sit him down and explain how this stuff works.

For instance...I have a mortgage for 300,000 on my house. I have only paid about 30,000 over the last year or so. Therefore, my lender has given out $300k for a $30k return on investment...at this point in time. Loans and subsidies take time to reap the benefits from.

A good point in time for reference...when only one Volt had been sold...did that car cost 1.5 Billion Dollars in subsidies...for one car?

Geniuses...all of them.

Well, the Mackinac Center's use of the number of cars sold so far is a bit misleading. But the issue is one of amortization, and of taking an educated guess of the number of cars to be sold. Over the past three months an average of around 1100 Volts were sold per month. If that remained the average rate for two years the number sold would be around 26,000 which is less than half the projected sales of 60,000.

With the price of gas being high right now (and it is a legitimate question to ask if this is deliberate on the part of the Administration) there may be a higher level of appeal to the Volt, so sales may average higher than 1100 per month over the next year.

On the other hand, one needs to look at the numbers of Volts that were deliberate fleet sales, made to enhance the sales figures. How much propping-up did this do, and how many more fleet sales will there be to keep the numbers propped up? Also, how many early adopters are there, and what is the saturation level? What if, within 6 months, everyone who wanted a Volt bought one and the market for it crashes? In that case the subsidy per car would be high; not $250K per car, but still high.

The Mackinac Center's numbers are thus (probably) only a half truth. But, the technique they used was the same technique used for years by those who complain about "$500 hammers" for the military and so forth. Sure, take the total program cost and divide that by one line-item in the purchase contract, using just the numbers purchased to date, and you get an artificially high number.

So, it's not like the Mackinac Center invented the technique. There is precedence for that negative portrayal.

I don't mind talking about the Volt, since I mentioned it in the OP, but I'd still like to know if Peugeot is a viable company or a dying dog that's gasping it's last breath.

Are their cars popular in Europe? It doesn't look like it.

I wonder why..................and why this is a good or bad move for GM?

This leaves it as unclear as ever.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46587731/GM_Buys_Stake_in_Peugeot_Interview_with_Stephen_Girsky_GM_Vice_Chairman

They provide a good in for Europe and allow sharing of knowledge...it's a win-win if the world doesn't fall apart.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of those 7,000 pound (money-type/A$12,000) 107's in the states. We've kind of missed those European styled cars here.

I like the RCZ for about A$33,000...yum!

A little history to start....

Citroen were the first to mass-produce front wheel drive cars, monocoque bodies, hydraulic brakes, wet-liner engines, hydropneumatic suspension - and as a result have been in financial difficulties numerous times. Bought by Michelin in the 70's, then Peugeot later on. Their small (1.4l/1.5l/1.9l) diesel engines were in just about everything this side of the pond through the 90's.

Very rarely seen in the 60's UK, now the two brands account for 8-10% of sales.

Fast electric?

The fast electric is cool. I would imagine that anything introduced in Europe would have to hold it's own on the autobahn. My personal feeling is that for now, electric isn't ready for prime time. Small, light, efficient conventional vehicles seem to be the way to go. Although, I may be wrong, with the higher gas prices in Europe. Also, the entire US has been built in such a way that long commutes are the norm...........sadly. I think electric is going to have to have longer ranges and shorter charge times if they are going to move beyond a novelty item.

Also, as long as we are burning coal to produce electricity, the "planet saving" aspect of electric vehicles is a lie. We need to be looking at coal liquefaction rather than corn to supplement our fuel supply. As a recent blog pointed out, all we are getting from our exported coal to China, is the smog.

The Autobahn is only in Germany, in the UK the motorway speed limit is 70mph.

Many commuters here travel relatively short distance to work - I have a 40mile commute (when in the office) and that is seen as quite long by most.

GM cars in the UK are Vauxhall branded, Opel tried to expand in the 70's, but remain a lesser German manufacturer.

While Vauxhall are seen as equal to Ford, they have been losing ground for the past 40 years. Neither have been seen as innovative for many decades.

Yeah, that's a long commute. Unfortunately, the US was designed and built up, back when gasoline was cheap and plentiful, so most commuters have a fairly long haul.

Who is the most popular seller over there?

And why?

If you don't mind.

Month by month breakdown

Thanks.

Wow. Ford is doing surprisingly well over there!

Well, hi guys, back to business after enjoying a long, festive weekend. So, I do think the Volt looks a bit posh, maybe the GM mandarins are looking for some French (froggy?) chic in design. I do hope this will be a better investment than that in SAAB-those swollen, self-important Swedes were not worth the nickel (IMHO). I still think, though, that GM made a BIG mistake giving up Subaru : they, GM, cold've had some very good experience in the small-sporty car business, and Subaru would have looked like a decent car, not like one from the mid-seventies as now, under Toyota's "wings". Just like VW with Skoda : the new Superb looks just like the best car for the communist party's clerks, and even the "new" Citygo is something that got the Stasi approval ... Pity for Skoda, the are wonderful industrialists and great people.

Typical - any vehicle company renowned for advancements in technology (SAAB was always a leader in safety and economy systems) - ends up in administration. Whoever buys will likely take the IP to use in other vehicles and then sell on what is left. I'm surprised GM didn't look after that before they pulled out!

I didn't realize that Saab, (the automobile), was gone.

Well, 7% isn't a very big stake. I'm guessing that GM bought into Peugeot to gain access to whatever electric technology they possess, and possibly to use any existing European manufacturing facilities that they have.

They were able to buy in relatively cheaply, so if it works out it might one day be seen as a brilliant move. Right now everybody seems perplexed. Even the industry insiders.

As far as Peugeot goes, I guess we'll have to wait and see if the cash infusion puts them back on the map, or just prolongs things.

Not gone yet, just teetering on the brink. They had ads in the 80's to promote "the only aircraft maker who also makes cars" (or thereabouts).

The original company which sold off the less profitable parts is still into aviation, and ROVs.

PSA have not been as hard hit as other manufacturers - Rover went down the pan, Jaguar now part of Ford, I think the largest 'car' company still in British hands is LTI!

Volkswagen is the most successful of all the European vehicle manufacturers. Their sales are way up. They have a lot of innovations coming out also. One of their models was redesigned for American tastes. They have a new plant in Chatanooga, and plan to sell 500,000 cars here next year. 8 million worldwide.

Foreign automakers in the US enjoy another cost saving advantage. No unions.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/07/uaw-hopeful-it-can-unionize-vws-chattanooga-plant/

I have owned two Opels (really great performance) and currently, a Peugot.

Can't say I have had any untoward problems...no car is exempt from occasional maintenance. The Peugot is a 2ltr automatic (Porsche gear box I'm told) and is heavier on gas than the 2ltr manual Opel was, by 1.8ltr/ 100km, and has not got that Opel's performance, by a long shot.

Having said that, I have also owned 4-cylinder Chevvy's and Fords. Neither brand's performance matched the Opel (also GM). However, the Opels were older cars, and maybe 21st century tech is better ? A previous generation Peugot 404 in the family did 180 000 miles before having to remove the cylinder head for the first time.

Peugot may not be the European market leaders, but I don't believe you need be concerned...

Hi GM'64, Jaguar nowadays are part of Tata, India.

On second thought, Peugeot may be in kindda deep..., well, murk, if they allow an outsider to buy in. French companies until this never sold companies to an "outsider", that's why eventually Peugeot purchased Citroen.

I think they were in financial trouble and this infusion of cash may help. I don't think they had much choice. With their stock downgraded to junk status, I don't they could have found a traditional loan.

Renault has a long history of "alliances" with foreign and domestic automakers all over the world.

To see Peugeot go there is really no surprise. They have a bit of history with Chrysler already.