Previous in Forum: How to Make a Mold from a Boat but Longer   Next in Forum: Problem in Car Diesel Engine
Close
Close
Close
24 comments
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21

Heating Element 24v Battery

01/05/2013 2:48 AM

i am designing a copper heating element. I plan to have a 15 mm thick x 75 mm width x 1500 mm long mic strip. Around I would like to wrap 3 mm copper wire spaced at approx. 15 mm apart. The ends connected to 24 v truck battery with a switch to ON or OFF whenever needed. This will be kept "ON" most of the time, this obviously will drain the battery; I intended to have a 500 CC engine but couple an alternator to give enough voltage to charge the battery and also provide sufficient current to heater a layer of WAX. Can this work? HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42328
Good Answers: 1666
#1

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 3:26 AM

Yes, good luck. I'd use at least a 600 cc engine.

Copper would not be my material of choice. It is not normally used for this purpose.

Copper is an efficient conductor of electricity. Can you tell me why it might not be a good choice for a heater?

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#7
In reply to #1

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 11:00 AM

thank you, I need something cheap, readily available material, was even considering copper sheet to sit flat on the mica board, with the useful information from our friends, will also consider nickel chrome. This is boat, with frond end plate to heater and scoop up 150 mm thick solidified wax on water.GJ

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Deepest Darkest Rutherford Oz
Posts: 951
Good Answers: 145
#2

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 5:10 AM

As Lyn alluded, You should reconsider the use of copper as your heating element. I'd suggest to you that Nichrome wire is a much better material for that purpose.

__________________
There are two reasons for a man to do a thing, One that sounds good, and the real one...
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#8
In reply to #2

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 11:05 AM

Thank you, suggestion accepted and will give that a try. GJR

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 663
#3

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 7:41 AM

+1 for Tobugrynbak.
Wiki has some great info on nichrome wires with tables for temerature, current, wire gauge and voltage.
I've recently looked it up for a hot wire cutter (for cutting fletchings on arrows).

A simpler and possibly safer solution would probably be an inverter and a commercial heater.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#9
In reply to #3

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 11:24 AM

thank you for useful info, will check it out. In our case we do not wnt the commercial unit, but DIY program GJR

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 467
#4

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 8:30 AM

I did a back-of-an-envelope sum to find the current in the wire. It came to about 500A.

I may be wrong - not enough coffee yet - but if I'm anywhere near the correct value the wire will melt very quickly. I suggest you do some sums.

Edit - the power dissipated by the wire (before melt-down) would be over 10kW.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7025
Good Answers: 206
#5

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 9:30 AM

you might want to read this before you energize that copperhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating_element

Register to Reply
Guru
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: India, 200 Km. North of Delhi.
Posts: 1386
Good Answers: 52
#6

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 10:34 AM

An ideal heater is that which produces max amount of heat from per unit surface area of heating element without oxydation.There are many materials those are close to these limits.But Cu is no where. Keep your Cu heater in red hot spectrum and you ll see it flaking in few hours. Beside this it require lot of space.

__________________
Jesus gave me message, Gandhi gave me method, M.L.K
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#11
In reply to #6

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 11:44 AM

Thank you, Rakesh, A temparature/thermostatic controlled heater can be installed to prevent flaking due to overheating? copper strips should also be suitable? GJR

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#12
In reply to #11

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 6:19 PM

The problem you are going to run into with trying to use your copper straps as heating elements is as stated earlier relating to the 500 or so amp load you have to contend with being continually switched on and off.

At 24 VDC thats not a cheap little relay you will be needing.

Why the opposition to using the correct material to do the job especially when it can be had and controlled for far cheaper and more efficiently as well??

I also have to ask, where do you have a boat in a lake that has 150 mm of wax floating on it and why?!?

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#14
In reply to #12

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 6:54 PM

Thanks for your comments, We have considered other options, the thick wax is from refineries and the designs are being applied for patent rights. GJR

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - Old Hand

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 14331
Good Answers: 161
#18
In reply to #12

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/07/2013 2:54 PM

Are these fellows attempting to make a boat propel through the water by difference in surface tension?

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#19
In reply to #18

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/07/2013 4:20 PM

we have an air boat .ntq GJ

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#10

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 11:27 AM

Thank you everyone who contributed to this forum. Regards, GJR

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 30581
Good Answers: 822
#13
In reply to #10

Re: heating element 24 v Battery

01/05/2013 6:40 PM

In summary, copper is the wrong choice of material. Use nichrome instead.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6944
Good Answers: 253
#15

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/05/2013 11:40 PM

Consider Ohms Law:Power(heat in your case) = I(amps) squared X R(resistance).

Copper has a low resistance,therefore more amps required to generate heat.That is why it is used for general electrical conductor.It can carry a lot of current before heating up.(Low resistance.)

What you should be looking for is a high resistance material,such as Nichrome wire, made for high resistance and high temperature tolerance as well as anti-oxidation characteristics.

You should also consider the heat-sinking ability of the wax and water as you try to cut it.It will probably require a lot more heat than you imagine, because of the state change of the wax,from solid to liquid, and the high thermal conductivity of the water.

It might be better to chop the wax with an auger and transport it aboard for separation from the water before melting.

There really is not enough information to make a proper suggestion, but I will presume you are talking about coconut wax.

Good Luck.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 87
Good Answers: 5
#16

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/06/2013 3:47 AM

As the media is wax (and persumable close to raw oil or heavy heating oil) in a container consider socalled "heating wires". These are wires sold by the meter and applied to roof drains to avoid icing or to heavy heating oil pipes in boiler houses and ships to keep the oil fluid. The heating cable is then wound around the related pipes and keep them on a temperature given by the design of the cable. Mainly the cables are designed for direct connection to the mains but there are also 24V versions for the use on oil tankers for the distribution of heavy heating oil. Would be much safer than a even chrome nickle wire which can be a risk of fire when in direct contact with your wax - if I understood your application correctly.

If the application requires to have a smaller heater consider high power resistors (refer to Dale or other resistor makers) they produce resitors for 100W (and more) which are fully sealed in metal and can be fixed to your container to transfer the heat. To optimize the heat transfer use heat conductiing silicone mats or silicone based grease. Also a possibility would be to short the heater of an old household washing maschine, cut it to 1/5th (110V) or 1/10 (220V) of the lenght, make the center heater accessible and use the parts in parallel. You might need some good idea how to fix that to your container...

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#21
In reply to #16

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/07/2013 9:55 PM

The wax is not consistant, sometimes light oil, sometimes thick, your idea will definately be useful. We are considering a few options at site when ready. TQ

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 37
Good Answers: 4
#17

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/06/2013 11:35 AM

If the wax is solid enough you might consider a trash boat such as:

WWW.trashskimmer.com

bandership

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#23
In reply to #17

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/07/2013 11:10 PM

That what we are talking about, looking for one too.

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - Old Hand

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 14331
Good Answers: 161
#20

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/07/2013 5:24 PM

Why not just use the waste heat off the 500CC engine to heat the wax, by sending the exhaust through a pipe that rides on a floatation at the water surface? Does this work for you? Then you could use the 500CC engine to drive a vacuum pump to suck up the wax (as in a shop vac).

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
Posts: 21
#22
In reply to #20

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/07/2013 10:02 PM

Yes, we even have considered have a copper tubing connected to the exhaust ports, this may not be sufficient, but surely will help; its got to be atlease 8 feet length before it touches the wax which will have about 5 feet width oming into contact with the wax on surface of the pond. Thank you, GJR

__________________
Do visit our web site for Palm Oil Mills and Plantation Management
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 37
Good Answers: 4
#24
In reply to #20

Re: Heating Element 24v Battery

01/09/2013 12:42 PM

I agree that trying to melt the wax (as well as heating associated water) will require a lot of heat.

Oil skimmers of various sizes are already developed that skim oil off the surface and decant the results returning the water and retaining the oil. Perhaps such a machine will suck up oil and wax too. Look at:

plaindealer-sun.com/main.asp?sectionid=41&subsectionid=119&articleid=13264

bandership

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 24 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

bandership (2); Del the cat (1); Fredski (1); HiTekRedNek (1); James Stewart (2); JohnDG (1); lyn (1); PWSlack (1); rakesh_semwal (1); ramofpersus (10); tcmtech (1); Tobugrynbak (1); uli_newBuilder (1)

Previous in Forum: How to Make a Mold from a Boat but Longer   Next in Forum: Problem in Car Diesel Engine

Advertisement