Is this Considered Located in a Hazardous Area?

Yes! GA from me!

It would seem that someone here has a bug up their butt about something.... so the OP doesn't know about haz areas. Well point him in the right direction!

come on people.... no-one know everything!

I teach my students and trainees, "there is no such thing as a stupid question, it is only stupid NOT to ask!"

it's clearly you, It is clear, right?

If it is an area that could be exposed to fuel vapors or splashing fuel it is a hazardous area and electronics should be intrinsically safe.

To be sure you should have the project checked by your safety personnel and plant management to ensure you follow all guidelines.

Drew K

The only rudeness I see here IS YOURS!!!!

Why not quit hiding behind the cloak of anonymity and attach a name to your whining.

Sounds like a scolding to me.

If the truth hurts, maybe it should.

Should the OP be installing equipment in a fuel line if they do not know what constitutes a hazardous area?

I firmly believe that people such as this OP come here because they are too cheap/lazy to take the time to learn the various code and safety requirements but feel it is expedient/free to pick the brains of members in hopes of saving some money, or face.

Never mind that lives may be lost as a result of non-qualified people such as the OP, and maybe the AP1 preacher too, working in areas where they have no competence.

I am qualified as an expert in my field (12 years of experience) and know a thing or two about other fields.

I am learning about my new career and using my existing experience where it is applicable...so I come here to ask questions about things outside my experience.

The other plant engineers I work with are often tasked with projects that are on the fringe or outside of their specific experience, so they ask around for advice. Some might choose to ask their questions here.

I agree with AP1 that your comment was not appropriate or helpful.

I am not cheap or lazy, I posted a question yesterday about a bearing fault that I had never seen before because I value the knowledge and experience of the members here (including yours).

Your knowledge and experience would have had more impact on the OP if you had written a cautionary but helpful response instead of taking this antagonistical approach.

Drew K

Expertise comes from experience and is qualified by years of service in your field.

Certifications come from training and education.

Your other comments are descriptions of how many questions are started here.

As for the final comment:

What are we here...a bunch of babies?

I thought we are adults who treat each other with respect and professionalism.

Drew K

Nah...we're obviously a bunch of childish punks raised on radio who survived into their older years through training, experience, and a modicum of common sense.

Plus, we were yelled at when we did stupid stuff...or attempted it

GA Tinkerer.

Definition of an expert: A person carrying a briefcase that is at least from 50 miles away.

No one can be an expert in their own hometown.

I will attempt to answer OP's question, but I will keep my sarcasm down so I too don't get scolded by AP.

From reading the entire NFPA section on flammable liquid storage and handling (a year ago) I believe any room that there could be explosive vapors do to spill or leaks is classified as Class 1, Div 2 hazardous location. A room that normally contains explosive vapors is Class 1, Div 1.

So your answer would be yes, you need to stay Class 1, Div 2 compliant. Everything needs to be intrinsically safe.

Or, put the damn meter on the roof, where the question would be moot.

That goes with out saying, if you are trained in hazardous locations, you know it has to be intrinsically safe or mounted outside the area. He obviously is not trained in this area.

Ah, excellent answer - thinking outside the box (or room as the case may be).

Ok, I should have used the term "explosion proof". I too have wired items in hazardous locations exactly as you described. In my defence though, if you don't know the definition of a hazardous location, you probably don't know the difference between IS and EP.

WJM FIRE,

The NEC 70 codes in Article 500 2011 always prevails here, but allows the use of the EU harmonized seals from HAWK which allows the cables/wires to be sealed and dismantled-saves time/materials and costs.

These seal fittings (see 501.7) have been used for more than 25+ years in Chemical and Oil rig systems (is a better seal) along with the new ISO eXe and XP boxes from Appleton, Crouse and Killark with EXE/XP vents when in an intrinsically safe Class I div II-III or the Zone 0-2 areas as laid out in NFPA 497 plus 496 for any pressurized vessels. Diesel has been classified as a combustible fluid when exposed to heat above 130°F and vapors arise from the PAH contents that do exist around 165°F and up (85-90°F exterior temp can lead to 145-165°F internal temp, especially if a large are space exists)

Use Zenia barriers/Isolation barriers as part of the wiring (Article 504) (Siemens, P&F, E&H or Crouse/AB) then you cannot got wrong. All meet NEC 70 -ATEX directives

One point: on Diesel fuels some to have flammable PAH additives in small amounts to assist ignition/combustion enhancements to ensure NOX/SOX reductions in the exhaust. Plus not all diesel is CLEAN diesel-can be corrupted (like NY had PCB's mixed in the fuel oils sold to homes and apartments for YEARS) and in winter they add Kerosene or Propane/Kerosene to stop gelling if the tank is not heated.

Lastly as I stated in my thread below (50), need the day tank BERMED.

I had no idea that diesel was sometimes corrupted for residential sale.

Thanks for that info.

Wjmfire,

dilution and corruption of fuels has gone on for years and is not only Diesel type fuels. Recently in south America someone mixed waste contaminated oils used in cars, trucks and hydraulic systems into residential heating oil about 20 to 30 % by volume (all the stuff they mixed was free except for the transport/pick-up aspect) so they did not get a clean burn and many burners had to be constantly adjusted for the fuel/air ratio. Was eventually investigated/stopped when a major Hospital had a full burner failure and huge emissions from the stack - constant haze, NOX & SOX # off the chart; same occurred in NY in the 70's and 80's by some rogue fuel dealers with PCB's and other waste oils.

So any fuel area should conform to the highest standard within the NFPA 497 and NEC Article 500 for the maximum safety- does not add much cost, maybe $185.00 extra.

Greetings fellow Posters.

I see a lot of good information here and lots of useful standards alluded to and great terminology.

What I don't see is where the original poster is located and there is no indication of where in the world the diesel and day tank are. Surely that should be a major consideration as to what the appropriate standard should be?

I like sight glasses for day tanks. No moving parts, little to no maintenance required and like everything else it is only as safe as the plant operator.

BAB

Great, BlueAussieBoy,

Thanks for asking that very pertinent and fundamental question!

I too am here down under like yourself, in NZ though, and I have in front of me Standards AS/NZS 60079.10 and AS/NZS 60079.14 among others.

I was just trying to get a second expert opinion. Among all the replies I spotted a few that answered my basic doubt regardless of their geographical location.

Thanks.

You are exactly right.

With all of the off topic comments on this thread, my brain went to sleep. A good example of why engineering (for me at least) should not be exercised under distraction.

My brain said fuel and that was all I saw.

Diesel has a flash point of approximately 126 F and above, making it a non-issue here.

Even if atomized from a pinhole leak, an explosion won't occur, only fire.

GA from me.

In response to the general nonsense going on in this thread. I have had the misfortune of dealing with highly educated certified mechanical engineers who did not know how to operate a screwdriver! (fresh out of college) I have also been subjected to highly educated AND experienced mechanical engineers who specified on plans that a 6" pipe be routed through a 3" hole in a concrete wall. Worse, when same was questioned, they commented that "if I put it on the plan, that's the way it is!" We ended up drilling the hole out to size AFTER the concrete was cured. All nine feet of it, at a cost of thirteen thousand dollars! I have worked with guys who had more than 20 years of experience who had learned absolutely nothing new in all that time. And with guys who never graduated high-school that had 20 years of plant experience who could hold their own with any mechanical or electrical engineer. My point is this....we were all dumb once upon a time....some of us are determined to stay that way....some of us will do whatever it takes to learn something new. Degrees and certifications are nice and often required by law....buy they don't mean you know anything except how to pass a test, or pay the fees for a license, or maybe that you have a good friend in the right place. What says something about our ability in the end is how we behave professionally and how successful we are at executing our jobs and solving real world problems while keeping things as safe for everyone as is humanly possible. The old school was always based on intimidation, the master verses apprentice system who's names we still use. In the old days engineers had years to develop their skills and education was minimal. Now days an engineer gains most of their skills in college and often only has a couple of years to "hone" that knowledge into skills that work. There just isn't time for the old way anymore. There is too much to learn, too many disciplines for one person to master them all! The result is what we have now...and we have to deal with it. We know that these guys probably are neither educated or certified for what they are doing..they might be..who knows? But, what we do know is this; They will be doing the work, or they are doing the work NOW. We know that they are not going to stop just because we tell them to, or because we refuse to help them. So don't we have an obligation to at least TRY to insure that they do it right?

ohhh full moon or something? chill people!

I would say that a diesel tank, diesel piping or anything associated with it is not a hazardous area. Certainly in offshore oil & gas it isn't, it's a utility.

Flowmeter? I would just go for a manual turbine one and just go and get a reading as often as you want. Why put a flowmeter in at all? A 'day tank' should be of a size where you can take a level gauge reading and then take another an hour or 3 later and work out the difference and the volume used for that period. Easy as long as it is a square tank or a vertical cylinder.

off shore North Sea diesel is considered hazardous... FYI

you might consider it hazardous but the operators, the MSDS and the Zoning classification doesnt.

Diesel isn't considered as flammable on a European MSDS, just 'harmful' and "Dangerous for the environment"

Zoning or hazardous area classifications offshore north sea are based on the probability and size of a gas release and the likelihood of ignition. They are governed by the DSEAR / ATEX 137 Regulations and there is no mention of diesel in there.

Sorry your wrong. Diesel isn't and has never been considered as a Hazardous process fluid offshore north sea and it doesnt make an area a Hazardous / zoned area.

There are conditions where diesel is considered flammable due to the surrounding environment. Engineered controls are utilized to keep this at a minimum but sometimes you have fuel in an environment that has parts of a fuel system exposed to temperatures above 150°F can cause even diesel to have vapors in sufficient quantities to flash.

Which is why it is important as many have suggested that an evaluation on site be conducted by their site safety personnel or competent persons.

_{(oh...and i support your first paragraph)}

Drew K

Thanks for such sensible response, Daveset!

I fully agree with you.

What does it matter the rating??? For even the worst scenario, Class I Div.1 the required installation is not much more expensive than what you will be doing for standard atmospheres.

You have one instrument, and apparently the controls in a non-hazardous area. You have a roof mount, so conduit is going to be used. Add the seals as required for Class I Div.1 and fill them with the new injectable epoxy. Covered. Cost above that for the conduit, assuming 1/2" rigid - about $125 or so and 1/2 hour more labor.

If you aren't sure where the seals are needed, just ask.

Only time it pays to fret over the ratings is when you have myriads of instruments and motors, with the control panel mounted there as well. Then the costs of being "overly safe" become possibly much more than required.

Wheel,

You ask a good question and is actually covered in the NFPA 497 and also within NFPA 70 Article 500.

If you follow the recommendations and ask your local NFPA rep and Fire Marshall to ensure you have interpreted the Code Articles correctly, you cannot go wrong with there advice/response-ensure it is in WRITING.

You should also ensure the area around the day tank is bermed and shrouded from rain; to take the FULL tank load if it spills and is fully sealed- need also a liquid sensor alarm in the berm-Turck make a nice one (to drain use an air-operated diaphragm pump, safer and EXP any way-plus place catchment pans under each hose connection with dry-spill powder or PIG rags to absorb leaks and dismantling of the hoses)

I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like you are trying to get a handle on diesel usage for accounting/reordering.

If that is the case, I suggest using an ultrasonic on the day tank. It won't give you a good instantaneous reading of fuel flow, but will give a good average usage rate. You will also have the ability to have (software) low and high alarm points.

If you have a decent historical trending package, that will give you information on daily through yearly usage patterns.

Just a thought...

Thanks for that suggestion, but only problem would be while the diesel engine is running at some stage the day tank will get filled by the fuel oil transfer pump automatically running to top up. This event will corrupt, distort and mislead ultrasonic's level readings of the day tank.

<...have to...>

Question the need for knowing the instantaneous flowrate of <...Diesel...> at any moment. Flowrate can be averaged by the change in level over time:

• How about using a dipstick and a clock or a calendar?
• The other way of doing it is to average the amount of <...Diesel...> fuel purchased over time from the purchase orders needed and records produced for replenishing the <...day tank...>.
• How about adding a sight glass or magnetic follower type of level indicator to the side of the tank?

All of these techniques are intrinsically safe in the context of hazardous area electrical equipment. Other techniques may be had by making a simple telephone call to the <...Diesel...> fuel supplier, as this isn't exactly the proverbial "rocket science".

<...Diesel...> fuel is not known for needing hazardous area equipment, as its flashpoint is so high at ambient pressure. Its vapour in air will self-ignite if compressed, which raises both its temperature and pressure, which of course is the principle of operation of a compression-ignition engine.

Diesel vapors are heavier than air.The hazardous zone normally extends from approximately 4 feet above the source,and extends downward without limit.

If it is in an enclosed area,the whole enclosure is hazardous.All conduits leaving and entering must be sealed,including at the power source panel and all power and neutral conductors must be opened by a common circuit breaker.Installing a meter that requires a flange creates a possible leak scenario.I suggest using an ultrasonic flow meter which can be mounted externally without cutting the pipe.It works by detecting the deflection of the sound waves by flow.

Like an ultrasound medical device.

A typical example:Not cheap,but what price safety?

https://www.zoro.com/pce-instruments-ultrasonic-flow-meter-32-to-32-ms-pce-tds-100hsh/i/G104853882/