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Anonymous Poster #1

Number of Earth Pits

02/15/2013 5:51 AM

Is it mandatory to have two separate earth pits for trafo neutral and two for equipment body earthing ? Is there any rule / standard that prohibits using only two earth pits instead of 4 nos. for trafo neutral and body? If so, what is the technical reason for keeping these separate? Similar questions can be asked about DG earthing also.

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#1

Re: Number of earth pits

02/15/2013 6:26 AM

Yes, there are rules for wiring up almost everything in a power distribution grid. These convoluted, arcane rules are your local wiring code. They change from location to location for a variety of reasons. Listen to your site engineer, licensed electrician, or electrical inspector how your installation should be done. There are lives at stake.

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#2

Re: Number of earth pits

02/15/2013 7:18 AM

Yes. It is mandatory to provide 2 Earth Pits for the Neutral of the Transformer. For DG also 2 Earth Pits are to be provided. This I studied about 20 years back, and I do not remember the reason and I will try to refer my notes and post it.

DHAYANANDHAN.S

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#3

Re: Number of earth pits

02/15/2013 9:05 AM

What is a "trafo" and a "DG"?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Number of earth pits

02/15/2013 9:35 AM

Trafo is TRANSFORMER, and DG IS Diesel Generator.

DHAYANANDHAN.S

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#5

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/15/2013 3:39 PM

Quote by

DHAYANANDHAN

Yes. It is mandatory to provide 2 Earth Pits for the Neutral of the Transformer. For DG also 2 Earth Pits are to be provided. This I studied about 20 years back, and I do not remember the reason and I will try to refer my notes and post

I am anxious to hear why you need 2 "Earth Pits". If they are installed the NEC requires they be bonded together. So why two?

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/15/2013 10:57 PM

Different locations in the world will use different standards and have differing practices. Some practices in Europe and Middle East are "better" than USA practices, and some USA practices are "better" than European.

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#6

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/15/2013 10:54 PM

Most projects having 63A or higher current rating motors propose double earthing. It may be by 8 swg wire or copper strip of 25x3 or 40x5 size. Having two separate pits ensures that if one pit is disconnected due to strip breakage, the other is operational.

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#8

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/16/2013 8:05 AM

Consult the Authority Having Jurisdiction .This over rides all code books and interpretations.If the AHJ wants bells and whistles on the ground wires, then bells and whistles it is.The NEC is a set of standards sponsored by insurance companies, to reduce or minimize their losses.Most code rules are made based on past losses, or forensic analysis of past losses as a way to prevent a repeat occurrence.

The earth is a very poor conductor,in and of itself at power distribution frequencies,and conductivity varies widely.So very little current actually goes into the earth during a fault to ground, most of it returns via the MGN (multi grounded neutral) system, which ties thousands of individual grounds together to form a national grid of grounds.Each pole has a copper #6 conductor from the power company neutral to the bottom of the pole, where a spiral of copper wire is stapled to the bottom.Think about all the millions of poles with this same feature.The grounds and neutrals of all systems are in effect, connected.

The purpose in having a common ground point is to prevent a difference in potential between two points.Voltage is not relevant if all parts of the system are at equal potential.Consider a bird on a high voltage wire.He does not get shocked because his body is at the same potential as the wire.

The reason they use earth ground is because most buildings are connected with the earth, and the bonding of all parts equalizes the voltage potential between any two points. This way,when you take a sip of water from the cooler, you will not get a shock because your feet are at a different potential than your lips.

A common ground point also reduces multi-path currents during a power surge, or lightning strike.

Hope I have not muddied the water too much.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/16/2013 8:45 AM

VGA

Electric codes change to fit the experiences of the regions. Installers and designers that do not know which codes apply to their location should consult with someone who does know those rules. I'm certain that CR4 has individuals qualified, authorized and employed in identifying how may and distant multiple earth pits are required for a location. Only the OP knows the site of this installation. We cannot even tell the OP which codes should apply.

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/16/2013 1:13 PM

Good explanation! And I like mud with my morning coffee!

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#9

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/16/2013 8:21 AM

You should make sure the Safe conection And redundancy about de short circuit current for each source of energy. Other good practice is interconect both or each source ground grid. This are good practice for electrical installations and should be followed in order to match the local rules.

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#12

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/17/2013 11:02 AM

THEORITICALLY SPEAKING ONE NO EARTHING WILL DO, YOUR EARTH RESISTANCE MUST NOT INCREASE 1 OHM WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME & VARIATION OF EARTH RESISTANCE IN DIFFERENT SEASON . BUT IN PRATICE THIS USUALLY DOES NOT HAPPENS. SO MORE THAN ONE EARTH PIT/POINT OF 3 MT DEEP IS RECOMMENDED.TO INCREASE THE RELIABILITY OF THE EARTHING SYSTEM WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME & VARIATION OF EARTH RESISTIVITY DEPENDING UPON THE SEASON.I PERSONALY RECCOMEND 4 NO EARTHING PITS AT LEAST 3 MT DEEP- 2 FOR TRANSFORMER NUTRAL & 2 FOR TRANSFORMER BODY. REGARDING THE QUESTION OF DISTANCE BETWEEN EACH EARTH PIT IT MUST BE AT LEAST 3 METER APART, IF TOO NEAR TO EACH OTHER BOTH THE EARTH POINTS MAY START BEHAVING AS ONE SINGLE EARTH. THE ABOVE LOGIC ALSO APPLIES TO D.G SETS EARTHING.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/17/2013 11:14 AM

Practice shows that theory is useless in predicting all possible fault modes. Earth pits installations primarily handle fault conditions. Proscribing any method without knowing anything about the terrain or application is at best foolish at worst criminal.

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#14

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/17/2013 10:32 PM

It is mandatory to seggregate the two systems.

Neutral earthing PITs are connected to main power system and is used for maintaining the neutral point

Equipment body are connected to separate set of PITs as they are safety aspects and any leakages to the equipment should be earthed.

Why Separate system:

In case the neural point voltage is not zero or there is unbalanced loading, we do not want to compromise on human life.

There are always redundant pair of PITs.

Hope queries are addressed.

I would request that please don't think of saving money every where, there are authorised professionals, who design considering techno commercial best solutions.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 2:52 AM

MANDATORY?According to what authority?Please give reference for this statement..it is in direct conflict with the National Electrical Code (USA)

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 9:31 AM

See comment 7 above.

Have a nice day!

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 9:44 AM

So I guess electrons behave differently according to their longitude and latitude.

Keeping all grounds at the same electrical potential I would think is universal regardless of location.Course, I could be wrong...

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 10:05 AM

Soil conditions change significantly with location.

With all of this insistence that earth pits are mandatory for a diesel generator and transformer (I hate acronyms) I have a question: How does one connect the diesel generator and transformers in a cruise ship to an earth pit?

Location, location, location!

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 12:34 PM

My argument is not with multiple earth pits, per se,but with the necessity to isolate them from each other.A common and uniform reference point for all "Grounds",whether they be on a ship, aircraft, wheeled or tracked vehicle,airboat,space station,satellite, hovercraft or blimp is a necessity.I realize that soil conductivity varies from place to place,and from season to season, so a common reference point for all voltage sources is a necessity to prevent spurious voltages and differences in potentials from load variation, spikes, lightning strikes, EMP's or the like.(Yes,I said EMP's which are present with every lightning strike.)

Yes, I realize there are Direct Current Circuits with isolated grounds,espcially when analog and digital circuits are on same PC board,and A/C systems with neutrals not grounded, but they are special circumstances that require special consideration.I will not go into that here, as the OP is referring to a grounded system, and necessity for multiple ground pits.My contention is not that they are not necessary or required,but that they should all be bonded to a common point for safety.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 7:01 PM

This all comes back to why I harp on the lack of language precision in many posters here. I believe that the separation of the earth pits the OP is referring to is a physical distance separation of the pits and not an electrical isolation from pit to pit. Simple logic tells me that multiple earth pits must be in different physical locations for them to be considered multiple pits. This same lack of precision does not preclude the generator and transformer being in a place (cruise ship) where an earth pit is impossible. Until the OP replies to our questions, we will never know what is relevant.

This all comes back to your earlier excellent answer. The Authority Having Jurisdiction and not the IEEE or NEC and certainly not CR4 will be the only organization with the valid answer. Now it is likely that the AHJ will cite work from a professional organization like the IEEE, NEC, IEC or other in making their standard.

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#16

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 4:09 AM

Please refer IEEE 80 for details.

If you refer some other standards based on the Local authorities of your Area please consider them.

As far as language is a problem, please consider recommended against mandatory....

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#22

Re: Number of Earth Pits

02/18/2013 7:45 PM

My only argument is that all grounds should be bonded together to provide an equipotential grounding point.I realize that in high voltage, high current situations, merely walking on the ground across a high resistance soil can create a voltage differential between left foot and right foot.Which is why a grounding grid is sometimes used, and the design of the grid itself is highly locality dependent,and local AHJ should be consulted.

I am sure everyone here is saying the same thing,because they all seem very knowledgeable and professional.The only problem seems to be semantics, not technicalities.

In that regard, I consider all respondents to be on equal ground (pardon the pun),and I am willing to accept misunderstandings that have occurred since the Tower of Babble.

My best wishes to all! Live well,live long, and find contentment.

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#23

Re: Number of Earth Pits

07/22/2024 7:06 AM

Follow the electrical standard prevailing in the country of installation; were it in the UK, then BS7671 would apply, for example.

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#24

Re: Number of Earth Pits

07/22/2024 8:57 AM

An important thing to remember is that 2 resistors in parallel will have a total resistance less than either one alone.I have seen cases where even residential installations require more than one ground rod,and that they be bonded using Thermite(cad bonding),no ground clamps. Imagine a 8ft ground rod with a sphere of soil surrounding it of 8ft.diameter.The second ground rod will need to be at least 8 feet away to get effective halving of the resistance by putting more soil in the ground path.

In very high resistance soils,chemicals are allowed to be poured around the rod(s) or (pit) to enhance conductivity.Some chemicals are magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, and rock salt

Inspectors can tell if a ground rod has been shortened without digging,using a resistance tester from the rod to test rods located a measured distance away.

Rocky soil, like in mountains present their own problems,and sometimes an angled or horizontal burial is permitted.

It all depends on the soil type and is determined by local AHJ.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Number of Earth Pits

07/22/2024 9:04 AM

Archibald Hubert Jones has offices everywhere.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Number of Earth Pits

07/22/2024 12:15 PM

YUP! Just like Kilroy.

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: Number of Earth Pits

07/22/2024 2:07 PM

The NEC standard for ground rods is 25 Ohms.Two in parallel will give you 12.5 ohms,3 in parallel will give you 8.33 ohms if all resistances are equal.If only one of the resistances is lower,the combination will be even lower than that lowest resistor.

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