Previous in Forum: Software for Recording Power Outlet Loads and Distribution   Next in Forum: MPCB for Star Delta Starters
Close
Close
Close
7 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 14

Metering of Regenerated Energy From VFD

06/06/2013 3:01 AM

Some VFDs are available with regenerative capability. It is said that regeneration will take place only when VFD applies supply to the motor and mechanical speed of motor is more than its magnetic speed. Does this mean that while regenerating, electrical energy flows in both ways? If regenerated energy is to be metered, will normal energy meters work? How?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: Metering of regenerated energy from VFD

06/06/2013 3:05 AM

While regenerative braking is taking place, the meter runs sdrawkcab.

The quantity will be tiny in comparison with that drawn during running.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
4
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Metering of regenerated energy from VFD

06/06/2013 10:00 AM

Well, the quantity will be in proportion to the amount of kinetic energy from inertia remaining in the spinning load once you no longer need to do the intended work of the motor. So it MIGHT be a large quantity, you don't really know. But I think what PWSlack may have meant is that it is ALWAYS going to be a FRACTION of the running energy, because in most cases it no longer represents work performed, it only represents residual inertia. This is the concept that is often over sold by enthusiastic salesmen, but disappoints end users who didn't think it through properly.

For example, if you use Regen on a pump drive, the AMOUNT of inertial energy remaining in a pump that incorporates a check valve to prevent back flow is very very tiny. But if the pump system is designed without a check valve so as to allow back flow to the source, the reverse energy flow can be almost as much as the energy it took to move the water in the first place (minus the losses in the system). This is what happens on hydro energy storage systems. Water is pumped into an elevated reservoir when rates are cheap, then allowed to flow back down when rates are higher to recoup energy or avoid using the higher rates and reduce energy costs.

Another example would be someting like a sugar centrifuge. Let's say it takes 10 minutes to fully accelerate the centrifuge before beginning a batch process with it. When finished, you can recoup the 10 minutes worth of energy used to accelerate it (minus losses). But you do not recoup the energy used in the batch processing, that all went into your batch.

But PWSlack's response regarding the metering is accurate, the meter will run in reverse, IF the total being regenerated is larger than the total being used. If the regen drive is just part of a bigger system, what it will do is reduce the amount being seen by the meter because it reduces the draw from the utility source by whatever it contributes.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#6
In reply to #2

Re: Metering of regenerated energy from VFD

06/07/2013 11:03 AM

Here are three examples of significant energy recovery.

-An Unwind stand for a paper machine used to be a drag brake. We replaced it with a regenerative drive, 500 Hp. Average recouped energy is about 400Hp. That is significant.

-Dockside cranes (cranes in general) - The work used to lift a container is recouped in lowering the container back down. - motor size again about 400HP.

-Veneer lathe for plywood - peeling up to 10 blocks per minute - the inertia of the lathe is significant, and since you are accelerating and stopping the inertia 10 x per minute you see about a 20% energy recovery on a 300Hp machine - again significant energy recovery. ( This is even higher if you consider cooling requirements if braking grids are used.)

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1753
Good Answers: 59
#3

Re: Metering of Regenerated Energy From VFD

06/06/2013 4:23 PM

USA east coast commuter trains (and anywhere it is exported) use 4 quadrant controller in every car. The braking part dissipates the energy in large resistors running the whole length of every car.

Compared to the whole consumption, the braking part is miniscule. The savings on brake pads and less frequent replacement of the running wheel assembly is a main budget item.

So, mainly, it depends on the particulars of every proiect.

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 18
Good Answers: 2
#4

Re: Metering of Regenerated Energy From VFD

06/06/2013 10:42 PM

With a pump or other like driven apparatus you will not gain much if anything from a recuperative braking vfd, however if the pumps have a large heavy drive pulley that might take some time to spin down (ie flywheel effect) you might gain some, over a long time period, a fan or large centrifuge, cutter head, etc. will yield a good return.
Keep in mind that most of the energy will be lost in heat dissipated through the vfd's thyristors and heatsinks during spindown.
Diesel electric locomotives have the best recuperation because of the huge inertia they store, which is where recuperative energy originated.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 351
Good Answers: 22
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Metering of Regenerated Energy From VFD

06/07/2013 10:12 AM

The normal diesel locomotive does not store any power except in the form or inertia. The only one that will is the new GE hybrid units with a battery on board if and when they ever come out with it. Some Electric only units do have the capability of pumping power back into the grid, but these are only the AC units. The DC units use mostly resistors in the US.

Some applications of VFD's with applicable storage are Elevators. Ironically the energy recovered is mostly on the lift cycle when lightly loaded due to the counterweights. When heavily loaded it shifts the other direction, but not as much energy is recovered.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHENNAI, TAMIL NADU, INDIA.
Posts: 1851
Good Answers: 65
#7

Re: Metering of Regenerated Energy From VFD

06/07/2013 1:02 PM

Dear Mr.AtulChahure,

What you have referred is correct.

But the regenerative energy is very tiny fraction and the Meter will show/record the differential consumption of power.

For example, if 10 Units is consumed, 0.45 Units is the re-generated power, the Meter will record/show only 10 - 0.45 = 9.55 Units only.

DHAYANANDHAN.S

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 7 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

4wsilver (1); dhayanandhan (1); GW (1); Horizon3 (1); JRaef (1); leveles (1); PWSlack (1)

Previous in Forum: Software for Recording Power Outlet Loads and Distribution   Next in Forum: MPCB for Star Delta Starters

Advertisement