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Compressors and More

06/30/2013 1:03 AM
Highlight on compressor choice.
There is a TOOTH compressor that produces 162 m3/ h oil free air - $55,000.00 - 22 kW.

A scroll compressor produces 48 m3/ h oil free air - 10 kW. $15,500.00

You need 100% air all the time because your production runs on this.

Scrolls are build with separate belt driven units of 3.3 kW, easy to replace and almost no maintenance. However, to produce the air that I need 4 pieces ending up with a bill of $62,000.00.

Redundancy means a spare TOOTH compressor: total bill $110,000.00

or Say 3 scroll elements or a spare scroll compressor: total bill $77,500.00

Running 4 scrolls = 40 kW - The Tooth = 30 kW

Question 1:

To use on a island with no big mechanical specialists. What is your vote on this and what is your opinion?

Both type compressors produce 100% clean air. Since the output of the compressors is at 10 bar (SAD) to atmosphere and the output is blown into a clean room through power instruments and tools, this will affect the barometric pressure considerably.

Getting the air also out of the clean room could work as a stabilizer if the delta t (time) and delta P (average pressure diff.) is kept low. (as a hint: 48 m3 @10 bar equals 480 nm3 and changes the air 1,5 times per hour without the Hepa air)

The idea is to have a brain storming discussion on how we (I become familiar) can avoid aftercoolers to get rid of the water in the air. Refrigeration cooling is costly and dessicant is polluting (for the air inside and will be an issue on getting ISO XXXX)

Assume, installing the piping with a run down (and use of CPVC sch80) You will have no corrosion in the piping and after compression, (and simultanous water separation,) blown into the atmosphere, the relative humidity will be much lower than the initial intake air.

This brings the comfort zone up (fictitious re: wet bulb temp.) and the airco that we need for normal activities will not have to work overtime to compensate for the heat of the air from the compressor.

(you cool the compressor outside the clean room and only the air runs in and out, Yes Sir)

And yes, (how optimistic we get) the tools need no oil to operate and can handle the rest of water vapor in under- saturated form.

Question 2:

Am I on or off the track and why?

The deal is one Good Answer for 2 Good answers on topic. Thank You.

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#1

Re: Compressors and more.....

06/30/2013 8:41 AM

I see why the Bahamas are thought of as a tourist destination and not an industrial hotbed with each of your posts

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Compressors and more.....

06/30/2013 9:31 PM

Re: Compressors and more.....

For the Bahamas, especially the Northern Islands, the economic crisis started in 2004 after a big devastating hurricane. When we found our ,again, the scenario repeated in 2005. Never we recovered here. Tourism has been a major sector also, but Nassau is the center that reaps the profits. Months without utilities.

The Bahamas have more than 700 Islands and keys. 7 Islands are key players and have some activities. Unemployment is (IMO) more than 35% and each form of industrial activity is welcome.

Here is the biggest Ship repair facility of the Caribbean, home of all the cruise lines for repairs in floating dry docks, to name one.

Plenty of products have been developed here: Naproxenium - the main ingredient of Aleve. Honeywell has a factory here. We also have a styrofoam manufacturer. Some Breweries. A shrimp farm. We have a big tank storage facility. The US had a missile basis here and also in the Apollo years, our telescopes on the island played a big role.

The latest developments flopped, mostly because the power rate. This is why I ask for the opinion and help on this forum. I know the US as a consumption (throw away) economy, but my roots are from a repair what you can, and do not spend on what is not needed economy.

I can and may not comment on politics. At the end I am a guest here and it is not up to me.

What I do now is a "is it feasible" study. The AC project is part of it and also this question. The project is about life saving materials and I am struggling to keep it here. It is very simple to have everything produced in China for 1/3 rd of the cost.

You guys have a lot of industrial experience and I am happy to have you all to keep me in line.

Our goal however is to keep production costs down without not paying for labor. I have no financial benefits, only the heart warming feeling that I worked for 100 people to get them employed.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Compressors and more.....

06/30/2013 9:37 PM

sounds challenging even without the storms, best of luck

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Compressors and more.....

06/30/2013 10:20 PM

Thank you

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#5

Re: Compressors and More

07/01/2013 9:30 PM

Won't try to help you on all of it, some aspects of it are probably better left to others (rule of thumb- don't reply unless you can give a good reply). Perhaps I can help you with the pneumatic tool problems you have mentioned.

Just out of college I worked for a major pharmaceutical giant in their sterile manufacturing facility. What we did for power tools was use pneumatic tools that you could pipe or hose the exhaust to a non-sterile area. This took care of the "dirty air" once it was used for power to the tool. It also had the secondary effect that we no longer were concerned with condensation/water in the feed air since it also went to the "dirty" area. We also used Filter/regulators/oilers to reduce problems with the tools. Several problems solved with one easy answer! This was around the time Laminar flow hoods were introduced and it worked with them also. It also worked on pneumatic production machines that used air cylinders such as inserters for the top of ophthalmic and ear products.

This type of tool takes more searching to find but is well worth the effort.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Compressors and More

07/01/2013 11:38 PM

Old Salt.

Thank you. Nobody wants my posts I guess, or nobody wants or can give a reasonable suggestion. Is it the style of posting that repels or is this forum just for house, garden and kitchen engineering?

In our former plant I served 15.000 m2 clean rooms of one of the giant pharma companies and they used exactly the same procedure as you described: double hose pneumatic tools. Keeping the air streams outside the clean room. That worked well @ 7 cents/kWh. We have a challenge to do better: with a knife that cuts the energy cost on both sides. When in the clean room the air is clean and we do not add contaminants - the air stays clean.

We had 16 55 HP screw compressors with oil injection that we had to get rid of afterwards at a high energy cost and we had always 3 to 5 ppm oil as traces.

This you can not blow into a clean room for many reasons.

A scroll or a Tooth compressor runs without any oil. Not even spores. When we use dry working tools, they do not add dirt either.

Here the main load for A/C is the high humidity and with blowing the air in the clean room we help the A/C with 1/12 or 8,5 %. This little change makes a difference of $1,600.00 to 2,100.00 per month per clean room in energy and maintenance costs. At 36 cents/kWh (came from 44) that counts to be competitive on the market.

I also hope to eliminate the after coolers that cost also $24,000.00 by compressing and draining the water out of the supply lines in industrial CPVC. We reverse a handicap into a benefit.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Compressors and More

07/02/2013 12:42 AM

1. Thank you for the additional information. It certainly makes it so that answers can be directed closer to your original question.

2. I and many others want your postings. We don't have the answer to every question, although some seem to feel they are the authority on everything. I and many others try to understand the question, refer to our knowledge and give as good an answer as we can based on how we have understood the question.

3. As I understand it, this forum is for all questions not just house, garden and kitchen engineering. Based on some of the questions and even more of the answers, it can become a waste of time instead. Use the "delete" key as much as you like. It sometimes helps me get rid of my frustration generated by sophomoric answers.

4. Although you have provided very excellent additional information, which should generate even better answers, I am going to leave the rest up to others to help you. I have been away from the pharmaceutical manufacturing too long to give you the quality of answer that you deserve and I would want to give.

5. I can not understand how anyone could be so vindictive, crass or ignorant to rate your post as off topic. It is well written, concise and to the point. You clearly have a tremendous knowledge of the subject and are well versed in it. Sometimes this forum doesn't work. Sometimes the answers you get are given by persons who have little knowledge of the subject and they want to sound like authorities on it. I hope that another person with the depth of knowledge on the subject as you do will see your question and give you an answer or help you in solving it.

6. I gave you a GA. because that is what your posting is!

Anyone who agrees with this posting let the questioner know please. Anyone who disagrees with it, don't bother answering it. I will not waste my time jousting with you, even if you question my mother's lineage. My "delete" key can beat up your "delete" key! It has plenty of practice although I don't like it when it has to be used.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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