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Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 12:42 PM

There is a close water system with large pressure losses and low flow. Am I right to believe that no matter how a second identical centrifugal pump were added to the system, the resulting flow increase will be more or less the same (about 20 %) ?

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#1

Re: serial or parallel = the same result ?

07/08/2013 1:17 PM

If you have large pressure losses your flow is most likely friction controlled and you might not get a increase in flow at all. This would be the same for both options with centrifugal pumps.

How did you go with the Fans?

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#2

Re: Serial Or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 2:01 PM

You can calculate/plot a system curve and pump curves for 1 pump, 2 in series, and 2 in parallel and know for sure. With the information provided, no one can tell with any certainty.

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#3

Re: Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 2:41 PM

you might to spend a little more time understanding the losses before planning on how you'll correct them

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#4

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 4:14 PM

With the pump it is more "practical" than it was with the fans.

I need to plot the system curve. To avoid long calculations I am going to start with installing a BV with Binder connections. Good thing having the 3 speed pump - and this is the case ! I know the existing pump's curves for its 3 speeds. The flow will be known from the PD across the BV. The 3 points found will be an approximation of the system curve.

I believe putting the second pump's curve over it will give me an approximation of the new flow (for 2 pumps).

Why do you think the flow at all might not improve ?

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#7
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 11:09 PM

Because your system might not be able to allow more flow due to constrains, high friction and a too small flow path.

An increased flow should almost always go along with a change in the piping.

What do you try to achieve? Why wasting a pump for 20% flow increase if you could have 100 % increase if done correctly?

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#5

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 10:42 PM

Don't get ''carried away'' with what you want to do.

First, invest a relatively small amount of money into the purchase of any one of several software packages that you can use to evaluate the alternates that interest you.

Use it to ''model'' the possibilities, before committing to acquiring any equipment.

Then, you will have some basis for making a more informed choice of what you should do...

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#6

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 11:07 PM

Think of your pumps as batteries in an electric circuit. The formulas are basically the same for electrons and hydraulics.Parallel will give yo more current and series will give you more pressure.

That is the simple answer. Of course, if your pipe is small then you will have a high resistance and the current increase will be limited by that resistance just as two 12V batteries in Parallel will still only light up a 12V lamp with the same brightness. But with two batteries in parallel you can add more lamps because you have more current available at the same pressure.

In series on the same small pipe it would be like putting the two 12V batteries in series and getting 24V. The same small pipe will move more current through it, but you are still limited to a maximum current the pipe will handle and the maximum current of a single pump.

If the pumps are not the same pressure, then you will be driving one against the other in parallel just like using a 12V battery to charge a dead battery. In series, the two pressures are added, but like putting a AA battery in series with a D, the circuit is limited to the maximum current of the smaller pump.

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#8

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/08/2013 11:50 PM

You don't state what your required flow, initial pressure at the pumps, what type of loss sources are, eventual pressure requirements so it is very difficult to give you an answer that is of the quality that you apparently want. Please provide all relevant information concerning the equipment that you plan to use, the required flow rates and especially what the sources of loss are. It has been said many times on this forum that the poster can only get a good answer if they give good information about their question. I'm not trying to be harsh or humorous, just a reminder that you only get the quality that you give. In my younger days it was called "GIGO", Garbage In- Garbage Out!

The paralleling of pumps does not automatically result in a 20 or so % in volume gain. On the lower end of the line losses are the pumps that many fire engines use. They are essentially 2 pumps in one casting. They are next to each other, with 2 volutes and 2 impellers. With both pumps in parallel the volume is twice that of the pumps running in series. In series the pumps put out twice the pressure and 1/2 the volume. This is usually accomplished by sliding an appropriately shaped plate across the discharges and inputs of the pumps. This way if the pressure requirements are high such as for a tall building, the pumps are set in series and twice the pressure and 1/2 the volume are available. Likewise for higher volumes, without the requirement for high pressure, the pumps are set in parallel by combining the intakes and outputs of each pump. For a simplified example: inlet pressure from hydrant, 50 psi., each half of pump capable of 750gpm at 150psi gain between inlet and outlet, with the pumps in parallel the output would be 50psi from hydrant + 150psi from the pump for a total outlet pressure of 200psi with a volume capability of 750gpm from one side of the pump and 750gpm from the other side. For the pumps in series it would be 50psi from the hydrant, 150psi from the 1st half of the pump for a subtotal of 200psi. The 200psi at 750gpm is them put into the 2nd half of the pump which increases the pressure by 150psi. The resultant 50psi from the hydrant and 150psi from the 1st half of the series pumps are then pressurized another 150psi by the 2nd half for a total outlet pressure of 350psi. Since no additional water is put in between the pump stages the outlet volume stays at 750gpm.

Although this is apparently not directly your question, it is an illustration of how parallel or series pumps can be used. It is also an illustration of how your question can be interpreted by the reader based on what they have interpreted your question to be. The more specific your question is, the more specific the answers will be!

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#9

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 1:10 AM

Very interesting posts ! Programs are costly, and I will probably start with the installing a BV and plotting the system curve (from the 3 points mentioned). Then I should see how "steep" the existing curve is and whether anything, indeed, can be done on the system without redoing its piping.

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 3:22 AM

Time is costly, too. Having obtained pump curves, which are already available from the pump manufacturers without going to the trouble of plotting them afresh (!), what is the plan to measure the piping system characteristic curve?

The operating point is where these two curves intersect.

Any thoughts on hring a Piping Designer instead?

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#14
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 12:12 PM

When getting known the flows for each of the 3 speeds of the existing (one so far) pump, I will be able to plot (an apprtoximation) of the system curve (using the pump H/Q diagramm). Then, laying the curve of the future (second) pump over the system curve, I will have a wind of the new flow for, let's say, the both pumps running on the third speed.

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#13
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 4:39 AM

You don't need to buy software, you can easily do it on XL.

Enter data from pump supplier's Q/H curves to get it on to XL. For pumps in parallel the flows are added at any head, and in series the heads are added at any flow.

Plot system curve H varies as Q2. Sounds like there is zero static in your case but no problem including it if there is.

Put each case on a graph to see effect of each layout.

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#15
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 10:32 PM

If the OP knows enough Excel(R) to delve into the details of sufficiently analyzing his existing equipment set-up, then he already would have, or he would have had enough sense to ask one, or more, specifically detailed questions... but he did not...

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#16
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/10/2013 12:59 AM

I cannot use Excel, unfortunately - for the tasks like this, and am just going to connect and continue the 3 points obtained on paper.

I indeed had an impression - and that was the basics of my qwestion, that no matter how you connect the second identical pump, the new (2 pumps) curve would slide up along the system curve (almost) identically for the both connections.

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#17
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/10/2013 10:11 PM

Excel(R) is a ''tool'' that can easily be made to create other ''tools.''

Therefore, you should do yourself a big favor, and start to learn a little about it, soon, because your ''competition'' probably already has...

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#18
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Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/11/2013 12:02 PM

Excel is incredibly easy to use -- hardly any more difficult than making a post here. A free alternative which works well is available as part of Open Office (which is supported by Sun Microsystems).

A huge advantage to using something like Excel is that once you have input the formulas, then the same spreadsheet can be modified slightly and used for a similar purpose -- or it the purpose is the identical, but data is different, then only the data needs to be changed.

Very very few companies will hire an engineer who is not fluent with Excel -- it would be like hiring a blacksmith who has never used a hammer and anvil.

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#10

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 1:14 AM

Am I right to believe that no matter how a second identical centrifugal pump were added to the system, the resulting flow increase will be more or less the same (about 20 %) ?


No. The flow is not likely to be the same (series vs parallel), and the increase is unlikely to be 20% in either case. There are many workable systems in which adding a second pump in parallel will very nearly double flow. In others, adding a second pump in parallel makes a very small difference, because the piping is acting like a flow limiter.

To get a better answer, you would need to quantify "large pressure losses" and "low flow", understand the causes of the large losses (do you mean large pressure drops) and the low flow... and then do the math, given the pump curves.

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#11

Re: Pumps in Serial or Parallel = The Same Result ?

07/09/2013 1:25 AM

Also consider the layout of the system - it may be possible to fit the second pump halfway round the loop to boost the pressure there.

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