Gravity

You wrote, "if I was able to deposit a photon in deep space, it would react to the environment, and take off at the speed of light, in what direct, and why?"

It's not that simple, but when a photon is emitted, the path it takes is more of a statistical nature than something like a bullet from a gun. The problem is that you are trying to reconcile the problem from a classical Newtonian physics standpoint and I would argue that the problem needs to be explored from a quantum mechanical point of view. Look up double slit experiment if you want to get a taste of the strange world of quantum mechanics.

Photons are essentially massless and do not "react" to gravity, but will follow through space-time in a "straight" trajectory. Now, gravity warps and bends space-time, so what is straight is a subjective term. Look up gravitational lensing to learn more.

Gravity distorts, bends, and warps space-time. Objects in motion will follow a straight path, but the space-time that an object passes through is not always "level" due to the effect of gravity. If you reduce it to a 2-dimensional problem, gravity is a little like a putting green with little hills and valleys. As the golf ball rolls along, those aberrations alter its path.

Some people like to describe it as the fabric of space-time and it is not smooth and straight.

I like your analogy of the putting green. The concept that I am playing around with is, that the motion imparted into the golf ball is not initiated by the dips and rises in the putting green, (gravity) but rather by another source (space). When the golf ball was set in motion it was done so in a specific direction, and it is this point I find of interest, does a photon have a build in system that says that it will travel in a straight line in a specific direction? Is it polarised? And as gravity does not attract photons, does it follow that gravity alters its direction by acting on that polarity?

I agree with your post, I'm just playing around with ideas.

Regards JD.

In Space, as far as particules are concerned (everything else also), there is no stand-still.

Analogy of the putting green: No friction and no flats but continuous curvings of the surface. therefore, things keep moving, being attracted downhill then overshoot up a hill or slows down a reverse, all depending on .....

To hold a photon and then placing it carefully in a point in space is not a possibility since to create or materialise it is already an exercise in motion ...

Hi Lucke, There is no standing still, no friction? And every thing is running down hill? I like that. There are photons that come in from the far reaches of space that have been travelling for millions of years, down hill at a constant speed and no friction? I agree that hypothetically placing a photon in space is an act of motion, but on release, direction is initiated, but does that direction become innate and can it be acted upon by down hill forces? Thank you for your input.

Regards JD.

The answer is yes.

Gravity can warp space-time enough to alter the apparent path of a photon. Gravitational lensing is a direct observable effect.

In an extreme case of inside the event horizon of a black hole the escape velocity required to exit is greater than the speed of light, so photons inside the event horizon never leave.

There is a sense that gravity attracts photons, but under relativity, it is the curvature of space near a massive object that bends the light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

The slit experiment is only good to the point that you continue to watch it.

The photon is, has always been, and always will be. I still struggle with this.

To 'deposit a photon in deep space', I think you'd have to be there, yourself, in deep space along with the equipment you are using to generate a single photon and release it. -- But you, your equipment, and the spaceship you are in are all going to be warmer than the deep space surrounding you, so you will be emitting millions (billions, trillions?) of photons anyway (across the electromagnetic spectrum, according to Planck's radiation law, corresponding to your average black body temperature), and these will be radiating away in all directions. That special, single photon you release will travel in whatever direction you aim it.

To extend AH's putting green analogy, think not of the ball which would curve away from the hills but of a worm travelling in a "straight" line through the surface. On the flat areas it would be a straight line, but at the hills it would look different. Imagine your straight line reaching the base of a hill, take a straight edge and line it up with the last inch of the line and then increase it by one inch, keep repeating this through the curved surface until you reach more flat. The difference is that the ball veers away from the hill but the worm gradually climbs while going around. Like a mountain road. The worm will eventually find its line aimed back down the hill to a flat area.

This assumes that the worm's path is not directly towards the center of the hill.

I used one inch as being small compared to a putting green but the increases should be extremely small for maximum accuracy.

You cannot place a photon anywhere "at rest". Maxwell's equations, which are the forerunner of Einstein's theories of relativity, show that light always travels at c from your perspective, no matter who you are, or how fast you are traveling with respect to something else. You can emit a photon in the direction of your choice with a flashlight. It will keep traveling in that direction at c in a straight line through space, but as AH has said, that straight line may be in curved space if there is gravity.

Hi SG, nice to see your input;

I am struggling to make a point, what is gravity? What drives a photon, is that drive also related to gravity? Gravity curves time and space. The reason that time varies is logically obvious, but what is it that curves space?(What is gravity), Is the same force that drives a photon, the same force that curves space? What does that mean and what is the reason that it does so?

Regards JD.

Gravity is one of the last frontiers of physics. We simply do not understand it.

What "drives" a photon (a quanta of energy at a specific frequency) is the same thing that drives radio waves. They are really no different, just their frequency and the mechanisms by which they operate pretty well understood. Gravity does not play a part in "driving" photons.

There are many theories on gravity, but no one has been able to validate them. String theory is one candidate that states gravity is a specific type of string (there are open strings and loop strings) that permeates not only this set of dimensions that we experience (a brane), but other branes that reside within the "bulk" (the total expanse of everything, which our universe is only a part).

The theory explains (or attempts to) why gravity is the weak force that it is, but extends infinitely. The theory being that since gravity can penetrate throughout the total bulk, only a portion of its force is felt in the brane that we reside.

Testing such a theory has been the problem. It has been believed that it is impossible to test, but some physicists are thinking that there may be clever and roundabout ways to do this. Time will tell.

i never studied relativity too well so i cantell ... however when i were time something i did a following "trick" i went to the center ?? i dont remeber what ??? ha - it must be this time-cluster (the time clusters are seen from higger D (if you have better to do dont force you to read that crap) as air bubbles from the water except if you go in it kinda seals around you and you see(detect) not where you came from - you can see it in mind however) i(spirit) sat there still (and did something - flush all your mind off - or deep syncing to NOP) then blew out to see "myself" - looking back (as time in time) - so that sh­¡t applies to everyone (in here - as if they were told that (weresostuped)) blah, - there's some practical sh¡t to it - the heat escape (thermo-dynamic balance) - you shine heat you remix to time (buble) - however it's possible to electric-aided to seal you in here from here - gives you a bit better wizard powers he-he

the past is inside future is outside - and the properties (physical) of here world are thus a bit changing - to inside the atom is like into a J trumpet from lowwer end up goes up to bubble shell ?6D/10D/13D() - also there's mental trend from 1 to many (groups of people are less likely to understand be compatible with each other) . . . ??? there was a specific parameter (to tell i have to c the right thing - i donthinkido) ?) heat moving to the future ?) Now's focus ?) ?) heat = no information ?? it likes points to center OR info = this world no = Xit orbs(new spirits come here down J-tunnel also (and they're hot when they arrive) - it's like hot's away -go figure)

i dont remember what you suggest by spreading photons around - you have to make it there - there₂ is a recall from old timez - as - you're done here (this time) you're done here - however it's possible to "alien in" (you may not like this format - i can't tell you it the otherwise) - basicly to enable anomalous feature here you need to create/insert a violation to this world - and it's guarded by Time Master (a sort of very povverful IT** she spirit - it can detect and track such insertion attempts) they will route such time out of this time (otherwords of the time arrives the insertion time - there quite likly is a cleanup done) - however we wee sucsessful - inserting some three particles (spirits - a combination of) so the She Master din't got what she saw the 1 was NOTHING - in very exitent look and 2 where parts of me&+ so she'd got 1 i'd be another - we maked it down here then not this me - so you have to be many magnitudes** more smart to put a photon somwhere (even theoretically correct)

the photon goes outside this buble (finally) the sharp ended _(outside)upj^{start(here inside)} and its "2-stroke" thingy ...

the atom is J-curve _{(here)widder entry}J¹_{(here-inside-atom) some particles or shells "Grandpa"} //1 -- up narrower((as it first seems - to exit you must unbound here - i don't remember in deail))(time shell) no objects (empty space) more light (closer to some master spirit)

where you end "up" depends on where you route

Hi ci139;

I find your input a bit confusing? relating it to a struggle with reality?

You might be right.

Regards JD,

Sorry JD, I've been out of town for a while and I missed your question. A lot has been answered and maybe I can just add one extra point.

You wrote: "So to be hypothetical if I was able to deposit a photon in deep space, it would react to the environment, and take off at the speed of light, in what direct, and why? And the next question is, if hypothetically I deposited a Hydrogen atom in deep space would it react in the same manner, or is observed matter a subject to relativity?"

In a sense a photon does react to its environment and it is this interaction that gives it a direction, e.g. the geometry of the apparatus used to create the photon (the flashlight that StandardsGuy spoke about). I a sense the apparatus increases the probability that it will go in a certain direction, but as AH stated, it does not quite guarantee that. Photons, as packets of energy only exist when they are free to move relative to the apparatus. They can be absorbed by an atom and then that energy is "stationary", but its no longer a photon.

An atom can be "deposited in deep space", and it will spatially stay there until something (maybe gravity) causes it to move. The easiest way to understand gravitational "force" is that the atom also moves at the speed of light, but when stationary, it moves only "into" the time dimension. Gravity warps the spacetime so that the atom moves a little less in the time dimension and a little into the spatial dimensions. Hence it appears as if the source of gravity is attracting it through some force.

This does not explain gravity, but it does what relativity does best: explain the reaction of objects to the presence of gravity. We are still waiting for science to come up with a cool theory of how massive objects "create" gravity.

Hope this helps...

--

Regards

Jorrie

Welcome back! Always enjoy your contributions.

Thank you Jorrie for your input, I'm a bit late on picking up your post. Yes I agree with your answer, I was trying to hypothesise that as a photon is release from an atom by an electron forced to change shells, that the information encoded in it included the direction in which it would travel? and that innate information could be acted on by gravity? and as atoms have electron shells, does the same apply? and does the properties of these shells accumulate like a voltage when mass accumulates resulting in gravity? the more gravity the stronger the reactance on direction?

Regards JD.

"I was trying to hypothesise that as a photon is release from an atom by an electron forced to change shells, that the information encoded in it included the direction in which it would travel?"

JD, this sounds a bit metaphysical to me, maybe because I'm not a particle physicist. ;)

In my mind, if a single atom loses some energy by an electron changing to a lower shell, it may emit a photon (or photons) in a random direction. In the relativistic sense, those photons will travel in that direction, following photon geodesics, which are the "shortest", "least action" paths through spacetime. These may appear to be a bent paths to some, but not necessarily to all observers.

More than that I'm afraid I cannot really comment on sensibly. I simply have too little knowledge of atoms and particles.

Thank you again Jorrie for your input, much appreciated. I realise that I am just playing around with ideas, but if I put them out there who knows?

Regards JD.

I think you are thinking of this in a classical physics sense. Like firing a bullet, it curves downward due to gravity.

However, there are two issues at play here. One, photons are thought to be massless and therefore gravity does not interact with a photon like a bullet and a planet does.

Two, in relativity, gravity warps space and time, so any trajectory of any particle in space-time follows through that warped space path. Unlike the bullet, which has mass and therefore also warps space-time (to a much smaller extent), photons do not interact with another object of mass. Photons do not warp space like a bullet's mass does.

That may sound a little confusing, but the general answer is that when a photon is emitted, gravity does not play a part as to which direction that photon is launched.

Of course, it is only a particle if somebody was watching at the instant it was emitted.

AH, what you wrote is true for most practical purposes, but I know you know that photons also 'curve downward' like bullets, just less so. On Earth that curve has a radius of around one light year, so quite negligible.

Also, if you have enough very energetic photons, they can have a significant gravitational effect on matter. I do not know of terrestrial examples, but one rather extreme example comes from cosmology. In the very early universe (less than 50,000 years after the B/B), the ultra-dense energy of photons were the dominant gravitational force slowing down the cosmic expansion.

So we should remember that all forms of energy warps spacetime.

--

Regards

Jorrie

You are right. I guess I was trying to separate the matter-to-matter gravitational attraction versus the track of a photon through warped space.

You wrote, "Also, if you have enough very energetic photons, they can have a significant gravitational effect on matter."

Now that is interesting. I never knew or considered that effect. I need to do some research on that as it is a fascinating fact.