Production Floor: HCl & NH3

Improve the exhaust system so it is good enough to get away with the fumes in a save way.

To where? Just blowing around in the local community, for instance?

I get you! No of course not. Local community definitely not save!

To a neutralisation system, filter system. I did not use my words right when I wanted to say in a save way!

That's better.

<...The stairs and lift are damaging due to the vapour..All the machines are badly corroded...Lots of worker are working in both floors with PPE....>

The problem is one of containment of the process materials, which needs urgent attention before it either affects the health of the process operatives or begins to kill them off. Stopping the plant immediately and rebuilding areas of it might not be too drastic a step, by the sound of it.

In order to justify the investment needed to sustain operations, have outside consultants prepare a report on the condition of the plant, the regulatory framework and the market in which it operates, the investment options needed and an assessment of the payback with recommendations.

In the meantime, consider condemning areas of the plant as unfit for continued operation. Bring in complaints from the local community if necessary to justify the stance. If this tends to nothing, then leaving the facility and finding a job elsewhere is also an option on personal physical and mental health grounds.

This points out the inadequate (complete lack of) concern for human health shown by the employers and govenrment regulators in your, and other countries.

It is the almighty quest to maximize profits at the expense of the lower level workers in your country that is to blame. Adequate ventilation and filtering isn't that expensive, but it doesn't show up as profit.

Bhopal tuaght your leaders nothing. Union Carbide: Bhopal

Lyn,

Sitting on your high chair your sarcastic barbs are tolerated! but it is something else when your lack of basic knowledge (Geography, i.e.) becomes so glaring. The OP happens to be in Bangladesh, and Bhopal is in India, though neighbours, but two different countries. Just like Canada and USA.

I fail to grasp the relevance of your rant.

Does an imaginary line diminish the reality of what I said?

Now that you have the floor, please offer your constructive comments, if you have any.

As CR4 is an international forum, lines drawn on maps are irrelevant.

Though Lyn did not draw a geographical/political line but he did not say anything irrelevant. In many of the 3rd world countries regulatory authorities are not conscious enough & they permit to establish such hazardous industry in a locality with dense population. I work in this country & have seen many instances like this. Several fatal accidents have already occurred. May Almighty save us all.

That is a serious dangerous problem with growing probability of injury and plant damage while it is tolerated/ignored.

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It would be a little easier to deal with if the two processes were closer.....

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Mixing the vented gasses, would yield solid filterable ammonium chloride. While the tiny particle are an irritant if not filtered, it is much better than breathing HCL or NH3. Sell it as fertilizer?

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If well mixed the limiting 'reagent' would be used up and you'd only have to deal with either HCL or NH3 and at a reduced level.....

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The exhaust system obviously have wet scrubber and necessary filteration system. But in my findings the exhaust outlet and fresh air inlet are in the same position. So, the exhaust is re-circulating through the fresh air duct.

Does the filling room required fresh air supply? What I observing that the supply is ++ then the return! Thats why fume are spredding all over the place. OEL or PEL may need to determine for the floor, so that we can justify the situation. A sensor of HCl & NH3 with buzzer system may improve the system i.e. if 5 ppm is our max. PEL then the buzzer will turn on.

We are fully concern about the Occupational safety of the worker and the organization is committed for zero tollerence. It,s just a mess-up of the exhaust system as long as operation fault.

The exhaust scrubber and necessary filtration are obviously not working properly.

The fact that the air inlet is next to the scrubber outlet only compounds the problem.

Fresh air is required to replace the exhausted air that goes to the non-working scrubber/filter.

As I like to say, this isn't rocket science. COMMON SENSE will should may tell you how to properly configure the system.

Look on the internet for help, it is a simple thing to do.

I have difficulty believeing that your concern for workers truly outweighs your pursuit of profit.

Consider improved scrubbing designs for acid gases (selective

I'm going to assume that you are finding the problem worse in the HCl area- please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's usually much worse on steel components than ammonia is in my experience.

Your problem then is specifically chloride induced corrosion from the HCl's natural tendency to off-gas due to its vapour pressure. I have 304SS tanks and equipment that look like rusty farm machinery due to this- sitting right beside shiny 316 equipment (Note that this is in an environment that meets OSHA regs for it). The same 304 equipment is fine inside where the liquid actually comes in contact with it!

If you replace everything with plastic, 316SS etc. you'll overcome the problem- might be bankrupt too. You can also look at your process to minimize opportunities for HCl vapour to escape, especially from the concentrated product. And finally, getting the HCl at a lower concentration or at least diluting it down as soon as practically possible for your process may work wonders- the vapour pressure curve drops drastically as you go down from the 30' Baume, for example.

<...All the machines are badly corroded...>

If the corrosion is on the process materials side, then it would indicate a serious materials non-compatibility problem that requires solving before a process leak takes place, affecting the outside, the operators, the structures that house them and the environment. Fortunately, there are solid process plant materials that are compatible with most process fluids:

http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

My 2 cents are:

In much of the world, we live in a zero tolerance for any exposure. I worked at a factory before there were safety regulations. My 4 foremen were at least 60 some pushing 70 they survived all sorts of exposure and the only lasting effect was probably their hearing. If we consistently enforced this level of safety throughout our lives we would be driving cars at 5 miles per hour and would have to pump gasoline with a respirator. I do believe that safety is important but I think you shouldn't get on your high horses that this is intolerable. If it was, no one would work there. HCl and NH3 can be tolerated in our bodies in greater concentrations than you would guess. I feel oldsalt gave a reply that wasn't condescending.

Bashir is asking for advice how to proceed so he is not happy with the status quo he is one of the good guys. I was in a similar position is a similar environment. The easiest way to get funding is to show a savings. Even jack-asses will cough up money if there is a pay back even if the pay back is really too slow. Your boss doesn't have to worry about his boss thinking he has gone 'native'. None of the management will look too hard if you are doing the right thing if there is a payback.

By the way, Bupal was more about bad management and less about safety. There should have been a contingency for a run-away reactor. Most reactions die pretty fast with a small amount of water added to the reactor. It might have to be introduced at a suction of a feed pump but there should always be a way to 'emergency kill' every process and at least the foremen or supervisor should know how to kill each process under their supervision. My foremen had to take a test before they could be promoted to that position. It was a sequence of emergancies and how to handle them. They were teamsters, which is against testing but will tolerate necessary testing. The foremen told the union the test was necessary so I got my waver. The foreman actually came up with 75% of the emergencies since they saw much in their 30+ years. Our night supervision was worthless. They were spread too thin, were not smart enough and really were unsuitable to handle an emergency.

Thanks all of you.

I have always find the probable best solution from CR4, but this time the situation is different.

Actually I am looking for a scientific approach to represent the problem to top management. Tools like OEL or PEL may use, but I have no clear idea how to determine it on personnel.

May be swab test of the worker after 8 hrs work is a solution, but we do'nt have the facility. Hopeless what to do.

I have all the ideas how to improve the exhaust system, but have to justify the findings to the management.

Guys, this is a multinational company and the system design by some top class Indian consultant!

I always have some allergy with the term CONSULTANT..............

If pointing out that, "The stairs and lift are damaging due to the vapour. All the machines are badly corroded. Lots of worker are working in both floors with PPE." doesn't convince them, what will?

Lyn-

Perhaps providing management with a tour of the operation would be an eye opener. May I make a couple of suggestions:

Have them climb the worst stairs, but caution them first of the risk of falling. On the tour date arrange for all personnel using the stairs to wear a full body harness similar to those used for confined space entry into reactors. Make sure that a rope and pulley are provided. Even better, use one of those arrestor/winch devices with a wire rope. They limit movements somewhat and always make a mess of a business suit.

Arrange for a minor leak on the day of the visit. Let them observe and "participate" in the mitigation.

Have a "Buddy Day". I have been forced to use these to show personnel that the big wigs "care about them". Give them identical clothes, PPE and get them to work. Also tell personnel that they must have the guests do exactly as they do. If favoritism is shown threaten disciplinary action.

Turn off the scrubbers for part of the time that the big shots are in the production area. Let the NH₃ clear their sinuses.

Support nepotism, hire big shot's relative to work in the area. The message of complaints may get to them.

Put in a huge capitol funds request to replace all the equipment. Show low profits if not replaced and very high ROI if it is replaced. Caution though, they could shut the place down and move it to cheaper place to operate.

Tape or block off a corroded stairs/ladder and set up another ladder held by ropes for them to climb.

Just a couple of suggestions.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I expect they would all be busy on that day.

But, a good idea none-the-less.

bashir01219-

Guys, this is a multinational company and the system design by some top class Indian consultant!

I seriously have my doubts about this comment. If this guy was such a top class design consultant why didn't he design this problem out of the system when the system was designed?

Good Luck, Old Salt

Perhaps, I have the same question!

Post #5 has your best clue. HCl and NH3 will combine without aid to form a white solid (ammonium chloride) which has a variety of commercial used, is non-toxic, and will not pose the corrosion problems of HCl or NH3. If there is a surplus of one gas over the other, it will be at a much lower level than you are now dealing with and can be mitigated by adding HCl or NH3 sufficient to maintain a balance. The ammonium chloride is filterable, and will also dissolve readily in water so a scrubber system will work as well.