Autism & Help.

It's unlikely that engineers are going to be of much help, unless they are involved with a child with autism.

There really is a vast amount of information on the internet...games, blogs, parent's forums, etc., that would probably be more useful.

http://www.autismspeaks.org/family-services/resource-library/toys-games

There is a few on this site that are familiar with autism,...... I can't recall the member name, he discussed it at length about 3 years ago.

guess time fly's, it was a little more than three years ago.....

Autism

Post #3 is a well thought of response…..

This thread is if anything is,........ enlightening.

So, what, if any, is your question ?

<...What input do CR4 people have ?...>

#1↑ makes good sense here.

The OP asks:

"We are thinking of buying X an android tablet device ... (for autistic child) ...

I was wondering which devices other people have and which they would recommend."

... hmmm ...

NOT a science &engineering question.if this person enjoys lights and such I don't see why an Android operating system is better than any other, I don't see your point . it actually sounds like a poor idea overall. People with these type of difficulties typically have issues already dealing with frustration. giving them a "toy" that will only work until they press the wrong sequence of commands once seems to be ill-advised. I don't think this idea would fall under "educational" until this individual is probably older than "X" and shoes an interest and aptitude for computer devices beyond those that are specifically designed as toys

True it isn't a science and engineering question but there are many of both who are somewhere on the spectrum; but as such people are high functioning they are not good people to answer this question.

Ask these groups.

Autism Resources‎ Autism

Autism Support Network | Free autism & Aspergers support | Autism ...

Autism Moms Support Group | Facebook

Thanks Lyn (Little Rock) for posting a relevant and constructive reply, with useful resources for the OP.

You're welcome, but, with just a few notable exceptions, this forum is not really composed of medical/psycological experts.

Actually much closer to Hot Springs.

Adding to Lyn's good list would be places like http://www.thescottcenter.org/. This is one of dozens of facilities associated with a college/university. Looking at both standard support facilities and places that push the envelope while writing research papers might give you a broader range of resources.

Interesting topic.

I for one have a lot of doubts on the definitions of Autism or what qualifies as having it.

Going by what I read about it's diagnosis and general symptoms if those standards had been in place in our public schools 30 years ago I would have easily been classified as Autistic and then some.

As an adult now I have been around a number of kids that are supposedly moderately Autistic and to be honest I would say every single one of them was just fine by the standards I grew up with. After getting to know these kids and their parents I would easily say everyone of these kids problems are based in weak/crappy parenting and nothing else.

The most recent example was last weekend when I was just at a friends house for her daughter's birthday party where one kid was all over the place.

According to his mother he had Autism and can't understand social interaction or self control. BS. After watching monkey boy run amok for an hour and how his mother handled, or lack there of, him I came to the solid conclusion the only thing wrong was he and his mother needed to be taken out back and have their asses beat until the concepts of parental discipline and personal self control sank into both of them.

The kid was not Autistic. His mother babied him and clearly to lazy to properly discipline him so he just did what ever he wanted without the least bit of self control.

That said I do believe that Autism is real and does affect some children however I would say that less than 1 in 20 diagnosed with it actually have it. The rest just have bad/weak/lazy parents who want excuses for not doing their jobs properly.

Taking a moment to try to help the 1 in 20 is a noble cause. I don't have any useful ideas but I support the effort. I don't know how some parents cope with it.

I am sad to say I tend to agree with your comments on the other (about) 19 out of 20. I can't think of anything fit to print about those parents. Most of us had at least a little trouble learning the meaning of the word "NO". When I see parents, schools and politicians that don't want to teach what "NO" means then I start to feel like all is lost.

Wow you're really showing your true colours there.

Autism is very real.

Tcm's comment just came across as harsh, because he ventured into another subject, which is also very real...Which is plain laziness on the part of parents, and the massive over prescription of mind altering drugs to kids that are just being kids, and in many cases, are simply acting out, due to the disengagement of the parents.

It probably doesn't apply here, or the OP wouldn't have bothered posting.

I had good parents, and plenty of discipline; but if I was being raised today, I'm sure I would have been diagnosed with ADD, ADHD, or something, and would be drugged to slow me down.

Oh I'm very sorry I didn't realise Tcmtech was actually qualified to make a diagnosis on this affliction. As that is what he has effectively done in his post. The long, indepth and costly process of diagnosis can now easily be carried out by himself, he could make a fortune.

And his statement

'After watching monkey boy run amok for an hour and how his mother handled, or lack there of, him I came to the solid conclusion the only thing wrong was he and his mother needed to be taken out back and have their asses beat until the concepts of parental discipline and personal self control sank into both of them.'

Wooooow there, arse beating, didn't that go out in the 70's.

Can you hear that knock on the door? That's the local Child Protection Agency, wanting to ask some very indepth questions.

Don't you just love self richeous people. Haven't you ever heard the quote:-

'Do not judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes' (that's the PC version)

If you are looking for an in depth discussion on how many children have actual learning/developmental disabilities Vs which ones just have lazy/and or other poor parenting issues just stop by your local school and have a candid discussion with any teacher who has been in the public school system for a decade or more.

Odds are any one of them will say my 1 in 20 is being generous on the real problem kids Vs the ones with bad parents.

I might not be qualified but I did grow up with both parents, along with numerous extended family members, working in the public school systems with my dad being teaching and administration and my mom working with the special needs kids.

If asked everyone of them would would say that maybe 1 in 30 has an actual problem. The rest just need to have their and their parents taken out behind the woodshed a few times for a good old fashioned butt whipping to cure the real problems.

Yes I may not be qualified but I have spent a lifetime of hearing conversations at family get togethers between everyone who was in the educational system pretty much sum up what I said earlier.

Personally if you want my honest opinion the OP is an anonymous poster so as far as I am concerned they are not a real person so they have no real feelings to hurt let alone offend anyway.

On a tangent issue, we can talk about ADD, ADHD and Ritalin.

On a after work cocktail hour about 18 years ago, one of the engineers wife's children, she was complaining how out of control her child was and that the only way to control him was medication. And she was saying this as though it was a badge of honor...........

AT the time, not knowing what medication her child was on, I of course gave my opinion which was.

I felt Ritalin is being over prescribed to children by misdiagnosing ADHD in them. When all it is, is a very active child.

And by doing so, which in my opinion by prescribing Ritalin is just a substitute for making responsible parenting,....... easier.

Did she ever cut into me and btw, it was Ritalin her child was on.

It wasn't that long after that, reports on the news were saying that children are being misdiagnosed with ADHD and Ritalin is being over-prescribed.

She never mentioned that again........

Yep that would have been me as a kid!

I was and still am the outdoors type. The best way to make me sit still and learn was to let me run through the hills for a few hours everyday. If not I took it out on my teachers to the best of may abilities!

Looking back I had a few teachers that if those types of "behavioral modification medications" had been available they would have tossed them around the classrooms like chicken feed every day just so that they wouldn't have had to work so hard.

The thing is today when it comes to those medications the medical professionals try to work hand in hand with the people who deal with the kids all day (their teachers not parents so much) to try and weed out which kids are the ones with the real developmental issues and which ones are the results of poor parenting.

The biggest problem is too many parents want their kids medicated into little zombies so that when they get home from work they don't have to deal with them.

The thing I have been hearing about now is diagnosing kids with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) if they don't take losing in games, sports or simply being told 'NO' very well. WTF is that about?

kids with PTSD.......

I can relate to that...... just recalling a threat from my mother telling me:

"Wait till I tell your father about this"....... still rattles me.

Interesting discussion. To add to your arguement, in PTSD, the T has to be actual fear of death, as in, he pointed the gun at me and pulled the trigger, it just didn't fire, otherwise it isn't PTSD.

cnc jim

I'm not sure I agree with you there.

I am sure that I am not qualified in any way to express anything other than a casual opinion, and the same goes for everyone else involved in this discussion.

This is also one area that I would never trust to Wiki.

I'm actually surprised Admin. hasn't killed this thread already.

"I'm actually surprised Admin. hasn't killed this thread already."

I tossed a shiney ball into their work room. It should keep them distracted and off the system for some time.

A live mouse would have been more fun.

Del wants his ball back.......

I'm not sure I agree with you there.

I am sure that I am not qualified in any way to express anything other than a casual opinion, and the same goes for everyone else involved in this discussion.

Well, Lyn, I am qualified, but the choice is still yours.

Cnc Jim

"...After getting to know these kids and their parents I would easily say everyone of these kids problems are based in weak/crappy parenting and nothing else..." - I was ofter accused of meaning to say just that, when All I intended on saying, is that it's easy to confuse in such case, between cause and effect, that is to say, it may often look like the parents are doing a crappy job of parenting, when in fact the are simply overwhelmed by the functional difficulty to raise a kid which is having a deep innate problem in deciphering people's intentions, body language, and social gesturing and signalling in general.

In that sense alone, it has more to do with the brain's neural wiring development, that with any social influence as such, by the parents, or by surrounding people in general.

There is no such thing as 'expert parents', and most do their best - up to the limits of their own personal demons to deal with, and more often than not, most parents get a hefty chunk to bite, maybe more than their ability to digest.

Human parenting is incredibly long and complicated, in comparison to any natural equivalent, and socialisation plays a critical role in successful upbringing.

So, in the rare cases where offsprings are having innate difficulty do deal with their surrounding's demands during the long process of socialisation, we intuitively look at the parents as the source of such hindering, and forget that they are left to deal with a difficulty which is not of their own doing, but instead, is an emerging peculiarity of their offspring's associative wiring - in cognitive terms.

The truth is that no one knows how and why happens, it may be a natural (biological) or an environmental occurrence (say, in terms of fetal development) - or - it may be of uncontrolled social origin, by, say a very early traumatic experience during initial brain wiring development - often having nothing to do with the active role of parenting.

Studies show Autism is on rise.......... Or is it.

Maybe it was never diagnosed before, and now milder symptoms are now being diagnosed with it. I always question that.

"I would have easily been classified as Autistic and then some."

In your case, it's not too late!

If you are serious in helping this person please go to Kerri Rivera Autism and get her book and follow the protocols, they are not expensive and in past 2.5 years has seen 106 Autism recoveries based on ATEC score of 1 to 10 as normal. I am now working with 7 Austic member families and positive results are apparent in first week. Normal program will run 1-3 years depending on circumstances. http://mmsautism.org/index.php/book.html

I have a son with high functioning Aspergers syndrome which is on the autistic spectrum. He was an early reader but enjoyed playing on a computer from an early age. The key issue is what software/apps you provide.. With the right ones I am sure he enjoy the tablet, without the right ones it will be a waste of time. A cheap Android tablet (now less than £60 in the UK) would probably be fine if you can find the right apps.

I would disagree about the one in twenty. We used to go to a support group and we saw what other parents had to cope with and how committed they were (and good parents). In the end we stopped going as we didn't need that level of support.

Many engineers and academics have Aspergers or are somewhere on the autistic spectrum, I recognise it in myself, but when it is mild or high functioning it can be a strength. However in more serious cases it is a major issue which does need specialist support.

There has been a lot of information put out in the last few years regarding the use of tablet and how they improve the quality of life for many with autistic spectrum disorders. I have not done the research, but I have talked to several parents of autistic spectrum children who all enthusiastically sing the praise of tablet use and improvements, sometimes amazing, in there childs condition. I understand that there are now several companies working on aps specifically to help these individuals. I strongly urge you to get in contact with your local autism advocates network and also ask this question of the several national organizations you will find simply by typing "autism" into your search box. They should be able to help you choose the right tablet and point you to appropriate aps for your childs ability level.

Buy the tablet!

I ashamed of the direction this thread has taken. The OP asked a perfectly reasonable question in order to try and help his child. Instead he and other parents of autistic children have come in for vitriolic criticism from some. It can be very hard for parents to cope with these issues and this only adds to the pain.

Sure there are some badly behaved children under the cover of autism - just as there are also incompetent and idle educators lurking among many others who are excellent.

You are aware that ADD is fairly common in engineering types?

So is Asperger syndrome, but I don't think it's that wide spread…….

But there isn't a connection between ADD and autism with the exception of the posts.......

I can't imagine staying strictly on a subject or topic, with out bringing related topics.......

Before you know it, we'll all have to line up to get coffee or going to bathroom......... and march in unison.

Chankley,...... if someone lists what they have experience, you have every right to challenge them.

TCM - you giving mental health advice is like me designing a heavy water reactor. Not a good idea and garaunteed to end badly since I know nothing about the subject.

CNC Jim - you are completely wrong in your assertion. Try working in a domestic violence center and you will get an education in PTSD. otherwise shut up.

Yeah, some of you just pissed of a social worker with your ignorance and insensitivity.

Sadly that old cliche about you hard science types seems very accurate today.

Sorry

I don't recall having ever given any advice.

In fact upon re reading my own posts so far all I see is my personal opinions based on my life experiences along with comments about what people in my family who have had to deal with children all day in their own professions say about learning and social disabilities in children.

As I said in an earlier post don't take my word for it just go and ask any American public school teacher what they think about the topics being brought up. Odds are you will find the vast majority saying similar things. The whole mess is being abused more than it's being put to proper use for those ho do have real honest problems.

It was a question about an android device.

As usual, we strayed off topic, and I don't think anyone comes to an engineering forum for mental health advice....except TCM.

Big deal. It's just another conversation.

I figure if people come here for advice on how to fix Chevy Cavaliers I can get a little mental health advice here as well.

(Still haven't found the mouse yet. It could be a long night.)

CNC Jim - you are completely wrong in your assertion. Try working in a domestic violence center and you will get an education in PTSD. otherwise shut up.

No, I am right. I am qualified as a counsellor, and have been for 13 years.

And not a crystals and healing style, Egan.

It may well be the case that the people you describe have experienced life threatening incidents however.

cnc jim

If for one minute you feel that Autism or the symptoms known as autism is unbeatable please go to this site for a feel good moment. http://www.mmsautism.org/ This lady with the help of others is performing miracles on many so called hopless cases. Based on her protocols we do know some of the causes of this brain altering condition but the good news is with inexpensive and safe protocols to date over a period of 2.5 years 106 cases have been recovered based on the ATEC testing method. I have no knowledge of any other protocol recovering even one child or young adult.

So Jim, A traumatic incident is not always life threatening, the term used clinically and you should know this too, Is "life altering trauma."

Fair enough. It looks like the definition has been changed from 'life threatening' to 'life altering' trauma.

That's really wide. Suddenly it's a spectrum we are all on.

cnc jim

Jim, It is a very real thing my friend. I spent and evening holding the hand of a 9 year old girl as she slowly died from having been raped to death by "family". As she passed my life changed. It has never been the same since and I doubt it ever will be. When she left, something inside of me died with her and I will never get it back. That is a life altering experience and one I would wish on no one.

"instead of being greeted with a happy child boucing in the crib and jabbering in joy at seeing you, no instead you walk in and the child is sitting motionless. will not make eye contact or in any other way acknowledge your presence. They will not interact and if you try to move them they go into a complete screaming rage."

I can remember doing that to certain teachers in grade school countless times either just to F with them and ruin their day or get them to leave me alone when I was deep in thought trying to figure out how something or someone works.

I didn't use the screaming fits but I did find that being stone still and completely ignoring certain people of my choosing as if they didn't exist worked very well when I wanted some time to myself on my own terms!

Sure it was probably strange but to be honest I never was one who put too much concern into other peoples wants treatment or respect when I disagreed with how they handled things. Especially the ones (teachers) who want everyone to be honest and trust and confide in them but then prove themselves to be liars or untrustable with which unfortunately I figured out at an early age many people are by all means untrustable liars.

Looking back it sort of makes me wonder if other kids figure that tactic out and if the people being totally shut out have simply given them just cause to feel they need to do so at all personal expense?

Nah. All adults are open honest trustworthy and never lie or manipulate others let a lone children. Right?

Well kids if measured by adult standards of social behavior are basically little sociopaths and worse being the true concepts of right, wrong, good, bad, acceptable or unacceptable behavior and how they are to be defined and used in social and personal interactions do not properly or fully develop until late childhood or early adulthood.

As you say, its pecking order and unfortunately I see that less favorable side of pecking order and resulting long term positive learning experience/development being disrupted by too much micromanaging of children's natural social development.

Too many overly soft children are being the denied the natural negative life experiences of having their feelings hurt bad enough and often enough to make them emotionally grow up and learn to deal with others and the bad parts of life.

Too many overly soft children are being the denied the natural negative life experiences of having their feelings hurt bad enough and often enough to make them emotionally grow up and learn to deal with others and the bad parts of life.

We can't protect our offspring to that extent. I don't like to be mean to mine any time, but she has had bad experiences at school (we have taken her ut of that school now). She had the guts to keep going, crying herself to sleep, I would have to wake her up for another day of torture... she had the punishment, but she never learned to deal with it.

It wasn't in her nature to retaliate, defend herself or any other things she might have done.

At the new school they said ' she seems to be exhibiting autistic tendencies, have her assessed.

This afternoon we learn that she will be diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum. My point is, she has been kicked and punched out in the backyard, as you suggest, but didn't learn anything. It just isn't in her nature.

My uncle had a dog. He would feed it in the morning, go out to work, and then beat it in the afternoon for sh**ing on the carpet. Then he realised it had no alternative. The autistic people have no alternative, and I'm glad I never took the advice of the experts who suggested the tough approach.

What do you think?

CNC jim

Ok now I feel bad.

Jim, you have my sincere heartfelt sympathy and any support I can offer. AS you may have guessed I have autism in my family so this is a personal crusade for me.

When you get the full break down if you have any questions or need to talk or just vent I am here for you.

The challenge is not to give in to the feelings of helplessness and hopelessness. It may take a while since I do not know your locale or local resources, but the sooner you start building the support network the better, not just for your daughter but for you and your spouse as well.

I can tell you have already started gathering information and looking for hope. Good for you! Just know there are many different diagnosis in the autism spectrum. So stay positive and let your daughter know that she is ok just as she is, she is not broken or damaged. I often used the phrase "differently gifted" as a way to help children find hope and find a way to get comfortable with who they are. Stay positive jim. You are not alone no matter how it may feel sometimes. Again, I am offereing any support I can give.

michael

Michael.

There's no need for all the sympathy. She is differently gifted, like you say, and always has been. The major difference is that when she has the label, it will stop people thinking the tough approach is what is needed, and this includes 'very close family' shall we say, so the diagnosis is a really positive thing.

'Differently understanding' is how I have explained it to her; In a room of 50 people, the teacher says something. 49 hear one thing, 1 hears something different.

If you look at what was actually said, both are often right, but there are things as well as what was said that give a different explanation to the 49. Tones of voice, gestures, inflection, expressions, all lost on my little one.

Resources are good locally, and the school is on top of it, like I said, they suggested the assessment, and didn't just see her as 'Quiet and shy'.

Anyway, thanks for the offer of support, if things go bad I may be back. The worst part at the moment .. well, it's like hugging a bundle of sticks.

cnc jim

Are you suggesting that the slow to learn should be treated the same as the can't learn?

I have been trying to make it clear in my posts that I understand and accept that some kids do have real legitimate learning disorders. I grew up with several of them in my school. As kids we knew they were different and treated them as so. However there were also a load of over protected over grown over cooled babies who had no learning problems other than needing to have their butts handed to them until they grew up.

However that said I have many reasons to feel that the whole learning disorder/disability diagnosis concept is being severely abused by adults who do nothing more than use it to their own advantage to have their slow learner kids declared disabled when that is the last thing those kids need.

Now relating to your daughter crying herself to sleep because of the stress from school I remember doing that as well. That and even breaking down and crying at recess for the high stresses of going to school. My stress however did not come from other kids so much as outright stupid teachers who were unfit for their jobs.

Because of those idiot teachers I was placed in the special needs classes several times despite the people who worked with the special need kids clearly fighting for me because they knew I did not belong there. I was also held back in 7th grade despite clearly having been tested as being highly (gifted level 142 IQ by age 13) intelligent and clearly being fully socially and mentally functional, when I wanted to.

To this day the biggest learning and development impairment I had was that I figured out that not all people who have jobs are good at them and that not all people who have positions of power or influence over children are good honest people. Many are very selfish lazy and outright the worst people to have in those positions.

You see I was not one of the bully kids in grade school. I was one of those who initially got picked on and roughed up like your daughter. I however learned to deal with it and in time figured out where the real problems in my classes came from. The other kids were rarely an issue with me.

In the end I may very well not have had Autism or the like but I can relate to the concept of using total emotional, physical and social interaction shut down as a defense mechanism against certain people or environmental conditions. It works and once it's made clear to those who are the source of the problem that they are not getting in and that I want nothing to do with them it works very well.

In a way I see it as being very much like how some kids develop eating disorders and worse. In a way they are last resort defense mechanisms that allow a person to have at least one area/aspect of their life they have control over even if it is ultimately detrimental to themselves.

I have no clue as to how you and your daughter truly interact but given my past experiences I know for a fact my childhood interactions with my parents and specific teachers would have been seen as highly Autistic in nature.

How I saw and understood my life and interactions around those certain people was no where near the rosy happy all smiles and help they made it out to be in those special meetings with school counselors and psychologists and the like.

I remember those specialists talking to me and telling me to explain everything to them as openly and honestly as I can about how my family and school life was which I did. In return nothing got better but rather I caught hell and then some. I was called a liar by my teachers and my parents for telling the real truth behind what went on at home and school.

For being open and honest in those meetings I got spankings and severe groundings at home and the bad teachers would come down on me like a ton of bricks for months afterwards and everyone made sure I got stuck in the classes with the real special needs kids just to prove they were right.

Yep total emotional and interactive shut down to the point of outright ignoring certain people as if they were nothing more than an object I had to walk around to get to where I wanted to go was what worked for me. However with the people and other kids who had proven themselves as being honest open and worthy of my trust I was a open happy friendly chatty little boy who was usually a pleasure to be around.

I don't know much about Autism but given it's primary symptoms and behavioral patterns oddly/sadly I can relate to exactly why some kids just might find that method and actions well worth using as a defense mechanism. It's the least personally physically damaging but allows for the highest level of external filtering of whom you have to deal with and why.

That's what I know about this subject and I have suspicions that when being around kids that's how I can tell which ones have true and real disabilities and which ones are the results of poor parenting and peers.

Sorry of any of this sounds remotely familiar to some people for any number of reasons.

I dropped a PM on you my friend.

Obviously, you have already checked out the use of the iPads by the schools. So what I understand you want is a cheaper, more robust alternative.

To me the problem breaks down into 3 parts: The hardware (looks like an iPad, but is cheaper and more robust), the software, and the $.

Since the schools and the child are using the iPad, it is written for whatever operating system it uses (sorry, don't know what OS it uses). Hence, the software is readily available (?$?). Although there are holders built for the iPad that could make it less prone to damage, it wasn't really designed with abuse in mind.

You will probably find the same toughness issue with most anything else you buy, unless you go with something that is an "indutrial hardened" design. Not cheap by any means.

As far as the android tablet device, if you feel it issufficiently sturdy, then you only have to wory about the software issue. Android is open source, with a very large user/hacker base (some of them are bound to have the same need), so chances are you can find the apps - probably for free.

(i donno much about it - as there are a variety of forms of this) basicly when a kid is young up to ??? say 5.5yo it (likely) has a universal mind link active and it "knows" that saying anything is polarizing the balance (eighter "bad(as a good)" or "good(which is bad)" offset - by that offsetting itself from ??? "God") - so some "dudes" like to stay "God" longer than others // there might be an indirect path to "view exchange with em" (telepathy) ... i don't think i remember how to achive such . . . . . . . . . it might be that staring at 'em is like an attack for 'em (checkin' ...) . . . it's the wiev sector that covers 'em they " get "into time" " by such (? why is attack) . . . is something global attention share (conflicting at the same "view" - (everybody should do 'heir own stuff ???))

You were talking to my wife while I was in the shop weren't you?

I found CR4 by doing a search on delusions of grandeur.

Been here ever since.

How can that be? You didn't know me before we met here.

It's tough hanging out in a place where everyone is the smartest kid on the playground.