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Power-User

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Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

11/27/2013 8:24 AM

NEAR GRADE EARTH ENERGY TRANSFER: GEOTHERMAL

About

2010 thread of "... geothermal ... "

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/62200#comment650934

about ground loops themselves in various uses; and compressor net cooling to rejected heating outputs in some common ground loop Earth-Coupling. -

From 1980 seminars and training to date, also regarding some engineering and a lot of conjecture there are a few "other's" information including their 1970's experience in engineering open and closed loop Earth-Coupled-Loop (ECL) application to heat pumps and chillers and process cooling of commercial equipment.

For one comparison to 2010 discussion: compressors of 20 tons on the label absorbed over 17 net cooling tons with 38f-to- 44f (temps) fluid circulation of 52 GPM while at the same time yielding rejected heat of 262-to-264 kbtuh [22 output tons] at 56 GPM in mid 90's-deg f back to the compressor (93-96f)

a little different found in the field holds for most applications ranges of

which is a ratio of cooling to heating

of 17:22 = nearly 3:4 and heating multiplier compared to cooling, evaporative- absorption, chilling, of ~ 1.3 (4:3)

which is why if 186 vertical borehole feet is an engineered "per ton of compressors required for heating with heat pumps" - may be found that it is also required in the same Earth-Coupled condition 240 ft of vertical or related borehole

---per COMPRESSOR-Ton (cT) on labels in boxes ---

is needed to get anywhere near Entering Water temps 90f to 88f and 85f as Dr. Steve Kavanaugh's reports used in testing at 85f. [52 to 55f clay and sandy lome soils, static-well-water in boreholes near 50ft or less from grade in 300 ft to 200 ft boreholes; and running tests over 3 weeks 24/7 and over 3 GPM per cT of the actual compressor on the rejected heat condensing side in Chilling/Cooling-Mode]

another point over the years is circuit regulation is found unnecessary in up to eleven 3/4" loop pipe id's off of 2" (1.93") id PE ground loop piping, as the flows in ranges of 1.7 to 2.7 feet per second , headered reverse return, not with OEM defects, will have all circuits within 10% of worst compared to best flows: same with 5 to 7 x 1" runs off of the same 2" header design, or up to 6 x 3/4" off of 1.1/4" and 1.1/2" headers

A first 1983 installed SERIES loop and two others out of over 120 closed loop systems mostly parallel headered and without circuit balancing valves other than larger hands on 40+ to 460+ ton systems seems as parallel, the norm since the early 1080's in one state; and yet around Pitts PA many still use say 750- 900 ft SERIES 1.1/4" and a same 2) 1/6 hp flow pumps like seen at www flowcenterproducts.com has great views - for all the same with "5-ton to 7 ton" vertical borehole field ECL's.

For one comparison to 2010 discussion: compressors of 20 tons on the label absorbed over 17 net cooling tons with 38f-to- 44f (temps) fluid circulation of 52 GPM while at the same time yielding rejected heat of 262-to-264 kbtuh [22 output tons] at 56 GPM in mid 90's-deg f back to the compressor (93-96f)

a little different found in the field holds for most applications ranges of

which is a ratio of cooling to heating

of 17:22 = nearly 3:4 and heating multiplier compared to cooling absorption of ~ 1.3 (4:3)

which is why if 186 vertical borehole feet is an engineered "per ton of compressors required for heating with heat pumps" - may be found that it is also required in the same Earth-Coupled condition 240 ft of vertical or related borehole

---per COMPRESSOR-Ton (cT) on labels in boxes ---

is needed to get anywhere near Entering Water temps 90f to 88f and 85f as Dr. Steve Kavanaugh's reports used in testing at 85f. [52 to 55f clay and sandy lome soils, static-well-water in boreholes near 50ft or less from grade in 300 ft to 200 ft boreholes; and running tests over 3 weeks 24/7 and over 3 GPM per cT of the actual compressor on the rejected heat condensing side in Chilling/Cooling-Mode]

another point over the years is circuit regulation is found unnecessary in up to eleven 3/4" loop pipe id's off of 2" (1.93") id PE ground loop piping, as the flows in ranges of 1.7 to 2.7 feet per second , headered reverse return, not with OEM defects, will have all circuits within 10% of worst compared to best flows: same with 5 to 7 x 1" runs off of the same 2" header design, or up to 6 x 3/4" off of 1.1/4" and 1.1/2" headers

A first 1983 installed SERIES loop and two others out of over 120 closed loop systems mostly are parallel headered in Ohio and without circuit balancing valves other than larger hands on 40+ to 460+ ton systems seems as parallel, the norm since the early 1980's in one state; and yet around Pitts PA many still use say 750- 900 ft SERIES 1.1/4" and a same 2) 1/6 hp flow pumps like seen at www flowcenterproducts.com has great views - for all the same with "5-ton to 6 ton" vertical borehole field ECL's.

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Guru

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Location: England & Ireland
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#1

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

11/27/2013 11:17 AM

- and your question is ?

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Guru

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

11/28/2013 8:35 PM

There is no question.

These are the mindless ramblings of a lunatic oddball misguided salesman who fancies himself the savior of the earth, using geothermal mumbo jumbo.

Look at his web site.

There may be a kernel of truth there, but he's too effusive to just plead his case.

It seems a case of baffling them with bull$hit, not dazzling them with brilliance.

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Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

11/29/2013 5:43 AM

Yes, well I gathered that. What amazes me is that someone is prepared to spend all that time writing these "mindless ramblings." That's what baffles me.

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Guru

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

11/29/2013 5:50 AM
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

11/29/2013 5:58 AM

You nailed it.

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Power-User

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

12/02/2013 7:29 AM

I ask,

did you have any on-topic help for the readers, or is this site closed to continued negativity?

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Power-User

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

12/02/2013 7:28 AM

Negativity and misreading disorders:

read Lyn in Geothermal vs windmilling-

and many other posts....

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Power-User

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

12/02/2013 7:27 AM

too elusive?

do you ever politely ask a question at any business gathering or open forum?

we are waiting

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Power-User

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

12/02/2013 7:20 AM

Lyn here's a Q:

did you find later that more accurate information is needed for other than that of the 2010 posts left , on the subject of GROUND LOOP GEOTHERMAL ?

Did you do your homework and find you could help?

Why?

Why not, Lyn?

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/62200#comment650934

about ground loops themselves in various uses; and compressor net cooling to rejected heating outputs in some common ground loop Earth-Coupling. -

STATEMENTS of ABOUT's in among those trying to understand, simply are not questions.

I find Preferential salesy grenades from Lyn's salvo - more than wanting.

Geothermal loops in the 2010 thread have nothing to do with Lyn's first misunderstanding there, and further needed more information to not leave the public thinking that was all...

Searching geothermal loop on this site is like any other engineering, open to conjecture, but not enough accuracy has been employed which aligns with field results.

Lyn's obvious meanings in other posts about water source heatpump realities simply do not match the facts of , well like, golly gee whiz, why are there double the distributors in the past 3 years, and such reasonable ROI's of better installations leading the way to near grade geothermal practicalities and for our schools and colleges without tax credit incentives.

I used to call other teenagers "rambling" when I disagreed or just was afraid their truths would off set my inaccuracies ... then in college I learned that A's in Calculus and Chemistry did not make me understand other's information any better UNTIL I ASKED:

at that point, - at that statement, what did you mean?

instead: Lyn exposed his misunderstandings openly and left the windmilling discussion.... "are you selling this" trying to crush open discourse, which others (only so few) later picked up on , asked intelligent questions about , and stopped so subjectively spewing well rehearsed stories of over unity... for instance.

in view of Lyn's misguided remarks in 2010 and here and in "sustain-geo" vs windmilling: Where 3 or 4 understood and even shared some nice examples; and 1tech could help Lyn...

it is time to try to understand Lyn's emphasis on all he has to say is so negative and a few times -- but still-- so very inaccurate. Maybe his compulsive disorders with 'if we say it enough, maybe those who have accurate and objective opinion will stay away from my negative rants too' such may be his attitudes on the net, seen and seen again in many threads so repeatedly.

Perhaps the seniority thing is his motto.

However,

there are a few too many odd statements made among some moreso just conjecture that does lead away from reality according to knowns then and now and the 2010 and a couple more I will address need some factual house cleaning searching GEOTHERMAL LOOP on this cr4 site

and need to get others to ignore the squashers of open discourse, those who can not form a respectable question or point to a line with a question for is even why the supreme court was formed to help with disputes that others might have a say in -, -rather than abusive adult children who feel it is OK to blither a disregard than simply ask why someone thinks a certain way differentially.

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Power-User

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#7
In reply to #1

Re: Near Grade Earth Energy Transfer: Geothermal Loop

12/02/2013 7:26 AM

"OPEN a DISCUSSION"

where is the question there?

If you have a KNOWLEDGE about geothermal ground loops with or without water source heatpumps NOT requiring back up heating

direct expansion in Cu tubing into the Earth or loops of PE plastic piping and sizes and heat-exchange experience-

the we wait for applicable injections of your conjecture and evidence.

so I wrote to clean up some misinformation in that 2010 site which anyon can still read:

WHAT is your question? about any above point such as a bout compressor relationships of absorption to heat outputs which has fooled the brightest engineers in designing school geoothermal , having many overheated loops , by not observing 1970's findings others tracked

For one comparison to 2010 discussion: compressors of 20 tons on the label absorbed over 17 net cooling tons with 38f-to- 44f (temps) fluid circulation of 52 GPM while at the same time yielding rejected heat of 262-to-264 kbtuh [22 output tons] at 56 GPM in mid 90's-deg f back to the compressor (93-96f)

a little different found in the field holds for most applications ranges of

which is a ratio of cooling to heating

of 17:22 = nearly 3:4 and heating multiplier compared to cooling, evaporative- absorption, chilling, of ~ 1.3 (4:3)

which is why if 186 vertical borehole feet is an engineered "per ton of compressors required for heating with heat pumps" - may be found that it is also required in the same Earth-Coupled condition 240 ft of vertical or related borehole

---per COMPRESSOR-Ton (cT) on labels in boxes ---

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