Need Help in Keeping Water Tanks Open

I do not know who in your area could help you. Unfortunately there are many critical details that need to be known to discern if your idea is even feasible. I can give you a few generic ideas. Insulate these tanks as best as you can. Ideally these tanks could be put below the frost line in the ground to insulate them and make them into cisterns. That would be the most reliable approach but no small effort. To try and use natural convection to circulate this water will be easiest with the solar collector being at a lower elevation than the tank. You might be able to circulate with a DC pump and a photo voltaic panel. All piping to and from the collectors will have to be very well insulated to prevent freezing in the pipes at night. If you cannot circulate this water for an unstated reason then preventing it from freezing will be much more difficult.

The size of the array will be determined by on site inspection of how much sun you get.

Haven't found anyone yet, which is why I turned to this forum. I honestly don't know if something can be devised to keep water open in subzero weather, but there should be!! One of the tanks is 350 gallons... a Rubbermaid, and the other is a Rubbermaid type of 150 gallons. Breaking the ice free, removing it, filling the tanks has become somewhat of a nightmare. I know that solar panels can provide the power to keep electric fences working, just don't know why something similar can't be devised to keep water open. I used to use 500 watt electric heaters to keep some water tubs open for my livestock but there isn't electricity where my tanks are now and I haven't been able to find anything of that wattage that is solar. I'm looking for options. Thanks so much for chiming in and if you think of anything please reply again! Happy Thanksgiving!

Thank you, Lyn... the second link looks like it might hold promise if I can adapt it to the tanks I already have! I had looked at the first link, which would be difficult for my circumstance.

GA Lyn, when I first seen her deli-ma, I thought about builditsolar.com. I haven't tried building one yet, but I was thinking of trying one of their designs so I can work through the winter months at my gold claim.

I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but I remembered that subject from the past.

Chopping ice is no fun, and the ice just builds up on your axe and doesn't melt, till spring.

I also like the idea of the second link. To minimize the expense and fragility of this design you might consider using sheet aluminum instead of a glass mirror for a reflector. The infrared reflection capability of aluminum is exceptional. I would still consider insulating the sides and bottom of the trough with some insulation to reduce the number of surfaces that easily conducts to your environment. I used some of the 3 inch thick pink foam insulation sheets to build shelters for my outdoor cats. This combination of a black thermal mass in the tank, insulation on the closed sides and an infrared reflector to increase the solar heat entering the open end will probably give you the most amount liquid time for the dollar. A brutally cold night in South Dakota will still probably freeze water.

Thanks so much, Redfred... I copied that article off to study it, so see what I would need for the bigger tanks. I also use 35 gallon tubs for horses not in a pasture setting. I might be able to insulate them enough to keep most of the water open for the daylight hours, at least. Thanks again!

Ever seen a lava lamp? Heat from below creates a circulation. It would be an interesting experiment to install 4" (or larger) well pipe, plugged on the bottom, as deep as you can. The deeper it goes, the warmer the earth below is. The pipe would be directly below a tank, so the water could circulate naturally.

I'm trying to envision this... would there be enough warmth to keep 350 gallons of water "open" during freezing temperatures? In this part of the world, below the freeze line is below 4 feet, with 6 feet being preferred... to find the kind of warmth wouldn't that pipe have to be far deeper than below the freeze line? And you're right, it would be an interesting experiment, although I know of dirt tanks that are 20+ feet deep on the deep end and they can freeze solid. Thank you for your input and idea!

this is a good place to starthttp://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/water_heating.htm

Thank you... I've been to this site, but simply wasn't sure what would apply to my problem. The batch solar heater might be my best bet so far, but I will keep looking for options. I'm on a very steep learning curve with all of this!

My Dad grew up in Tabor, just a bit west of Yankton. As a kid I remember on both of my uncles farms, a wood burning heater that was submerged in a round sheet metal stock tank. I think those tanks were 12' round, and 2 feet deep. I don't know if those heaters are still available. I assume these existed at farm supply into the 60's as purchasable items. I remember they would pile field stone on them to keep them submerged.

So I did a search, and there are many links; "stock tank wood burning heater"

Many youtube videos, here was one article on building your own. You do have to feed the fire, so this may not be what you want to do. Back then they had corn cobs to feed the fires, something that's been lost with using grain dryers to store shelled corn these day's. But propane certainly would be available for an energy source.

I don't know if you live in the banana belt west as far as cold, or in the Manitoba clipper east.

backwoodshome/articles

I'm about 30 miles south of Aberdeen in the northeast quadrant of South Dakota, so we get those clippers. I've seen articles on the wood burning tank heaters, although if I thought chopping ice was aging me fast, cutting wood is about as bad!! That's why I was so hoping to find something solar powered... still thinking that if a fencer can be powered by a small solar panel, why not a submergible tank heater?? Might be a pipe dream, but for some reason, I think it should be possible!! All these ideas are great and I hope all of you keep the suggestions coming!! I'm not watering cattle, by the way... it's horses and one sheep. My place doesn't have a free flowing artesian well, which I miss... if I had that, there wouldn't be any problem that I couldn't over-come. My well runs far too slow to be left running when it's bitter cold. Burying the water source tanks would not be practical for me, either in my pasture or at my acreage, so will have to nix that idea. Thanks anyway.

The problem of a solar powered electric heater is the power lost through multiple energy transfer. The spectrum of light used by photo voltaic cells to make electricity is narrower than the IR spectrum that so easily directly generates heat. Now solar battery storage might extend time a little further.

The added confusion factor though is that a solar battery powered fencer will actually draw much less average power because they zap (discharge) infrequently. Most animals do learn their lessons.

The problem is that it takes a lot of NRG to heat water. just think about how long it takes to boil water on your stove. To energize an electric fence takes much less. Also the fence doesnt really use any (very very little) power until an animal touches it.. how often does that happen..

Sounds like you need to sell the farm and retire in Fla like the rest of the old folks do... or at least move to Ky where it rarely freezes past an inch.

Problem with moving south is that everybody did and still do... I like my rural life, even if it is a tough one!

If you can bury the water tanks six or more feet, the water shouldn't freeze. Then I would think that just circulating enough water to provide a watering station for the cattle might take considerably less energy than trying to heat the water. A small trough with holes in the bottom shoould allow for a small drinking area, with sufficient circulation to keep the water from freezing. It would take some experimentation to find out how fast you had to recirculate the water to keep it from freezing in the coldest weather.

From a maintenance standpoint, you wouldn't have to cover the tanks with dirt, but any kind of insultion. Hay, or any other handy form of insulation should suffice.

Could you make a green house over the stock tanks?

I grew up in Winnipeg, and I tell ya, it gets COLD. Stock tanks will freeze to the bottom given half a chance.

I think a wood burning stove...industrial that doesn't use split wood.... would be handy. I am trying to think how to get heat to go down to a tank without electricity.... the only thing I can think of is to drop a bar into into the tank and the other into the fire. No doubt there others who can figure this out.

Guys... an elongated circle of a liquid that falls instead of rises when it warms up. Fire powered. Is there such a thing?

How about a small bubbler system operated by battery low voltage air pump?

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/ponds/2003010923017442.html

http://www.pondshop.com/catalog/air.htm

With the small quantity of animals being watered, you are looking to build an insulated house of preferably dry straw bales, covered with a dark-colored tarp, then the water in a drinking trough to be heated. Ideally the heated water would circulate back into the storage tank. The tank itself set on dry straw bales would help to reduce heat loss to the earth.

The frost depth varies, but here in WI next to Lake Michigan I have seen buried city water lines break 8 feet underground in long-duration sub-zero weather.

The idea of 'geo-thermal heating' is to drill a dry well 40 to 50 feet deep run a 'u' shaped water line down into it and a pump circulating the water doesn't need a lot of energy and recovers the heat from the earth. There are websites with the calculations. Your local electric coop may be interested in helping to do - finance this, the state may have grants available.

Solar hot water heaters are also availiable and would operate similar to the geo-thermal to heat the water.

You may want to do calculations to determine the 'heat loss' before sizing the geo-thermal or solar system, insulating the tubs with straw bales and a dark-colored tarp should help to capture the suns heat too.

Linda J-

Boat marinas in the region of the coasts which are cold and the salt water freezes over use two types of "anti-freeze systems". One is to bubble small air bubbles from submerged plastic piping. Air is pumped into the pipes, released from the pipe and the air brings warmer water from the bottom up to the surface where it prevents surface ice from freezing. This is used well below 0 F.

Another more possible system is the submerged pump or propeller system. This uses a submerged pump or most often a submerged motor with a small propeller forcing small quantities of the warmer lower water to the surface. This breaks up ice and prevents it forming. They both work on the same principal: warmer water up, colder water goes down and replaces the warm water, cold heated by the lower water, warmer goes up and repeats itself continually. An adaption of this would probably work for you.

Have you stock tanks buried in the earth so that the lower portions, the deeper the better, are located below the frost line. Insert the motor with the propeller at the bottom of the stock tank in the warmer water. Power the motor from a small solar panel mounted on a tower or pole to prevent it from being buried in snow. Turn on and the warmer water will rise with the force of the motor and propeller and so forth. The motors doesn't have to be big, just enough to force warm water up fast enough to prevent the stock water from freezing. For many boaters with larger boats this is much cheaper than hauling it out for the winter.

A good starting point would be West Marine on the internet. Look at what they have to familiarize yourself with the concept. The do some internet searches and you should be able to set this up in a short time period.

Hi, I can imagine what that daily chore is like, but not for long. Urggh.

Best economic answer I can think of is to insulate the tank, lid sides and top with:-

Well, straw bales (the old style square ones), with wire mesh to stop the stock eating too much of it, and some timbers to keep it in place. You now have water that 'might' stay liquid. Use a small domestic water tank with a float valve as the drinking tank and insulate piping, valve and tank sides. Use flexible plastic tubing between the tanks as that should survive freezing.

To add solar heat into the bulk tank domestic radiators to gather sun heat with more of that flexible piping into the tank with car anti-freeze to keep it working. Now that will kill the stock if it gets into the drinking water, the right way would be a heat exchanger, but maybe just a second radiator against the side wall of the bulk tank (inside the insulation) so an anti-freeze leak cannot get into the drinking water.

There's details to sort out, like the solar rad being lower than the heating rad so convection will give some flow. Cheap insulation that the stock won't eat, and a fire grate beneath the solar rad for a small wood fire on bad mornings. (Easier than hacking ice on cold mornings - a fire lighter can make each tank a ten minute job).

I assume you are hauling water to the tanks? Storing that water under cover overnight will at least add some cool water to the cold water in the bulk tank.

I'm going to have nightmares now about your daily task to water your stock. Urggh.

Eleven-

The initial use of the phrase "anti-freeze system" was to indicate a system that would not freeze. It was not intended to indicate a system that was capable of the potential addition of any chemicals who would be added, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Of the most frequently used anti-freeze compounds, sufficient quantities of Ethylene Glycol would have that effect. The second most used antifreeze, Propylene Glycol would not. Any recommended system that used a liquid anti=freeze compound or a water soluble compound should not be used where it would have the chance of contaminating the animal as you stated.

Good Luck, Old Salt

She's trying to provide water for these animals in the cold, not poison them.

Thank you, Redfred....

redfred-

For clarification-

# 48, paragraph #2, sentence #3:

Any recommended system that used a liquid anti=freeze compound or a water soluble compound should not be used where it would have the chance of contaminating the animal as you stated.

This was stated correctly and had no inference to using any chemical in the system. I suspect the closest that any anti-freeze compound nearby would be the Ethylene Glycol mixture in her p/u truck, 4wd, or tractor. If contamination from those uses were a problem I would have recommended either a dog sled or a Chinook helicopter.

# 49, Paragraph 1, sentence #1

She's trying to provide water for these animals in the cold, not poison them.

Is incorrect in that no previous postings anywhere refer to the use of any materials poisonous to animal, unless the D of Agriculture has found water poisonous to livestock.

# 44

A casual examination of post #44 lists links relevant to the suggested system. This material clearly indicates that no anti-freeze is mentioned or recommended for use. The only chemicals mentioned in it are fresh water, as in lakes and salt water (brine, sea water) as in oceans. To my knowledge there is no natural sea water in South Dakota so that shouldn't be a problem.

If you have any additional questions or comments, feel free to contact me.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I don't know if you have any wind when it is that cold (here there would usually be no wind at all when very cold), but if you do, then a VAWT with a big "stirring" foot in the (insulated) tank will stop the water freezing.

The water tanks also need fixed paddles to oppose the flow and get things stirring and warming up....

It can actually produce hot water under the right conditions of size and wind movement and was used I believe in Sweden many years ago to heat houses that were off grid.

The construction could be made fairly simple, and if large enough, may be able to also drive a small generator to charge batteries for water pumping/movement.

I have not done it myself, just read about it somewhere....best of luck.

Mechanical stirring of a liquid, under the right conditions causes it to warm up, but you do need fixed opposing paddles....and time to experiment.

Just to test the theory, if I was doing it, I would start with a (clean!) 50 gallon oil drum for example, well insulated.

As someone who grew up dealing with cold weather and supplying water for animals the most practical and rational method is to have installed the correct water system for the climate.

That in effect means using small size well insulated store bought automatic units that are designed for your climate. That and having had done the necessary forward planning to have put an electrical line out to where ever the waterers are going to be placed when the pipes went in the ground.

What you should have installed is small dedicated automatic waterers designed for your climate that have built in electric heating systems and a good reliable backup generator for when the power fails.

Anything else is likely going to be an exercise in wasting time effort resources and a lot of money. Sorry but from practical experience I can assure you that trying to keep multi hundred gallon stock tank units from freezing is a futile effort. It always has been and always will.

Here is cheaper solution:-

If you have float valves on your tank connected to underground pipelines that's connected to an inexpensive water source (on farm pond), add a T fitting to the inlet with the valve on one side and a hose bib valve on the other side. Crack open the bib and let extra water flow through. Moving water won't freeze no matter how cold it is. The only thing is you need a way to drain the excess water away from the tank to prevent ice from forming and animals slipping.

If it doesn't get too cold, collect some used, black quart oil bottles, fill them about half full of water and let them float on top. Their movement will help stop ice formation and when the sun comes up, they'll absorb heat and thaw a bit around each bottle. Covering part of the tank with plywood or such will help conserve heat as well.

Moving water doesn't freeze. Not true. I have walked on several frozen rivers. I have seen frozen waterfalls. People walk and fish through ice that is over 1 meter thick on rivers and streams. Moving water does freeze. Look up the high and low temperature for the area she lives in.

Simply add ample quantities of Ethyl Alcohol. Water won't freeze and livestock will surely become happy campers.

Nice answer, Red Neck, glad I trigggered your response as you have some sound ideas there.

I assume these tanks are typical farmers livestock tanks, on legs at the side of a field.

My Hay Bales were to provide basic protection/insulation, you've taken that a sensible step futher.

Best we can hope for is that hay bale bricks are available, cheap, and actually help. Then it's worth doing the next bit with Insulation, wind proofing, etc.

Not sure my separate drinking bowl would be worth it if the job got a good bit easier.

Bio-heat is a great idea. My radiators laid on "Stable Discards" with more bales over would certainly work well. Hope all this actually eases the task. Just off to make a hay bale garage for my car.

Nice idea!!

Try thinking outside the box for awhile. South Dakota, you have steady winds, most of the time. Think about putting up a wind powered generator to create your electrical requirements, after all, the wind blows at nite but the sun doesn't shine, so when you need the heat input the most, you don't have it unless you install some electrical storage capacity.

There are yacht wind generators that you'll find in internet. A two foot propellor type that'll mount on a 6ft pole to avoid damaging your stock and drive a local fish tank type heat in a small area of the tank (a corner). If there's a clear water area maybe the stock will clear the rest of the ice? Worth a try on one tank, insulation would of course help a lot.

Actually that was the idea I found in half century old Farmer's Almanac. They added that piling the horse dung around the stock tanks was a good idea, but they heavily cautioned about piling it around the well head. Which was usually fairly close...but they really did not want the well contaminated, which is surely would if you did that.

And well heads are usually placed fairly close to stock tanks...so the warning is a good one. This trick was used successfully on my grandfather's farm in Saskatchewan...but his stock tanks were large oval tanks half open to the air and the animals would drink directly from it. He would have them packed three feet deep all around with the plentiful dung his animals would provide, and he kept them topped off with a windmill driven pump. The overflow would just be dumped into the gravel center drain in the barn.

Don't remember much of it though... that was long ago, and manure was a job of work for a young fella from the city and I tended to avoid it if possible. But I did ask why grand dad was building walls of horse shit around anything involving water in the barn.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I suspect you will continue to do what you have done up until now...break out the ice every morning... these are just ideas which you will have to think about come spring. But then of course...there is planting, and delivering colts and lambs, and a thousand other things. So set the plans in place now... I recommend a day planner that you can hand to a project manager, complete with all components and where he or she can get 'em. All your planning now should go into a dedicated day planner.

If it were me, I would head down to my co-op store and pick up a standard windmill as found on any farm back in the day. Have it pump some water onto a pan on a cheap 55 gallon whole log woodstove, and let the hot water pour back into the main stock tank. I know how cold it gets there...and yes, running water WILL freeze. Thats what I would do tomorrow. (No I would not...I would use a generator and a sump pump if I had to do it tomorrow! Its going into December! ) Thats how I would keep your main stock tank from freezing. The smaller ones that the animals will drink from...I would just make em small enough that you can dump em on their sides...knock the ice off the bottom, and re-fill em for the day. Your mileage may differ..and I AM working from 50 year old memories...so cut me a little slack. I'm trying!

Keep the whole think in a little shack, and use due diligence with regards to smoke.

For really small amounts of odd ball power like from a solar system, I have had success with "bubbler's". They can be created with very cheap components, (even aquarium pumps) and all they do is drive bubbles into a small pipe that lies along the side of the tank. A few teaspoons of water come up with each bubble, but they add up. If you pumped it up to a wood stove beside the stock tanks, it could heat up in the pan you placed on the top, and then simply pour back into the tank. Seems a little "rube goldberg) when I describe it, but it could be done and finished tomorrow. IF you had a little air pump powered by whatever.

Thats what I could do now, in the cold. I presume you have a shack over the whole set up, in which case, use due diligence in getting rid of the smoke. Safety is important.

There are plenty of 55 gallon drum el cheapo wood stoves, and a small engine splitter is pretty cheap as well. As we all get older, we should be getting smarter. Use the tools we big brains have invented.

All of you have given such good food for thought and for that, I thank each and every one of you. As it stands, I will probably just keep breaking ice since digging holes, building sheds, getting Ritchie waterers installed isn't going to happen at this time of year. I'm about to bring my mares home from pasture... so at least I won't have to drive to break ice anymore and might be able to at least insulate the bigger tanks enough to make the job not so completely miserable. I really like the idea of the windmill, bubblers, and keeping the water moving... so I'm going to be looking at that very closely. It's just me, you see... and I'm pretty good at plumbing - how many 63 year old women do you know that can solder copper piping at the floor joist and not burn the house down? ;-) - but it would be the basic designs I would need to figure out. I've also used manure to insulate smaller tanks and continue that even now.
I had to "start over" recently and moved to my new location just a couple of months ago. I have an artesian well here but the pressure is crappy and I fill tanks and tubs with garden hose - drained both ways when I'm done! Also, I don't think this well is very deep since the water has a distinct aroma and is very cold. Where I used to live, the free flowing well put out an excellent flow and was always about 45 degrees.
Again, THANK YOU all... what a great bunch of good guys you are!!

I will check this out!! Thank you!!

Sounds like the old army immersion heaters used in the mess hall. Still find them from some surplus centers. Colemans come to mind.

Lonster, how did those submersion heaters work? I've used some small ones to keep 35 gallon tubs from freezing, but have never tried anything like those on the larger tanks. Thanks...

I've seen one in use heating a 4 man hot tub back home in Dawson City,Yukon. I don't recall if it really got it really hot or not.

Problem I have is no electricity at the tank site... The 150 gallon and the 350 gallon are in the pasture and water is hauled to them daily... as is breaking out the ice when the temps slide below freezing. I think I can insulate the 150 gallon but am still a bit puzzled on how to achieve a good level of insulation on the 350.

The heater on the hot tub had no power. It worked on a multi-fuel gravity feed drip system. I'm not familiar with them personally but I know they were used into the 70's. Perhaps a VFW or a vet here can give you a better idea on how they work.

Thanks!

" how many 63 year old women do you know that can solder copper piping?" only the good ones

Oh, now you're going to make me blush....

Linda J-

How many women would even admit they are 63 let alone they are 63 and can solder copper piping?

Good Luck, Old Salt

;-) I'm not afraid of my age... only afraid of chopping ice for the next 4 months!!!

Your mention of manure was something I was going to mention. My gardening book says it will heat a cold frame, or hotbed.

For your situation, I would consider an insulated pit with insulated sides, only one side touching the tank. An insulated cover keeps the heat in. When the manure finally cools off, the manure is changed.

It would be good if you had a front loader to move the manure around, and the pit was easy to scoop out. Insulated panels are pretty common, the whole thing could be just big foam panels that were strapped into position.

The better the insulation and fits, the longer it will last.

Thanks Mike... I'm going to insulate all the tanks and tubs as best I can for the rest of the winter... no front end loader yet... the JD 4010 still needs some tweaking before it can come back into the fold as does the little bobcat! (And yes, I can run them both!) I will be looking to get some Styrofoam and some boards to get started. If I cover part of the open top, should I paint it black to help warm up beneath the cover? Or use a black faced plastic to stretch across it? I have some, which is why I'm asking. Thanks again!

Don't know if it would work, but just an idea.
Small bottle gas refrigerators can be had with the usual heating grid to dispose of the
heat transferred from freezing the internal compartment of the unit.
If you strip away the container and fasten the freezer grid to the base of the water
tank could that provide sufficient heat to stop the water freezing?

The units are cheap to buy (or found scrap) and a little experimenting may work?
(with insulation, restricted water surface area, etc. naturally)

jt.

I got home today and found a post-it note on the fridge door, it said:
"It's not working, I'm going to spend a few days with mum."
I opened the fridge door, the light came on and the beers were freezing,
I don't know what she is talking about!

I think you're missing a lot here. Better to use the gas to heat the water directly.

There's no heat to remove, because everything's already frozen.

I think I understand why she went to "mums".

_{We're being silly now.}

It's ok Lyn. All friendly banter, even when the jokes on me!

I could not see how to use the gas safely /reliably under the tank?

jt.

The policeman stopped me and I asked why?

He said "you went around the roundabout 15 times why?"

I said "my indicator was stuck."

"oh, I can see I have a clever one here, he said "can you identify yourself?"

So I looked in the mirror and said "yes that's me."

That's it he said, "anything you say will be taken down and used in evidence."

So I said "please don't hit me again officer."

Can you elaborate just a bit more??? Please.......

Linda J-

In post #20 I referred to a system used in marinas in very cold regions of the coast. The theory is that warmer water is forced to the surface where it melts the ice. I have found two suppliers of these units. Although I doubt that these particular units could be installed with no modification, this does provide you with a clear view of the concept. Depending upon the distance of the units from AC power or an appropriate source of solar power, these or some similar to them can be used with only small modification.

http://www.thepowerhouseinc.com/iceeater.asp

http://www.thepowerhouseinc.com/pdf/ieo.pdf

http://www.thepondreport.com/dock-bubbler-deicer.shtml#.UplfHrko45s

These sites explain and supply both the air bubbler system and the water circulating systems described in post #20. If these units are not directly useable, they could be used as guides for either modification or construction of new units similar to these.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Thank you, Old Salt!! Appreciate the links!!

Linda J-

Please refer to post #55 regarding the erroneous reference to the use of any chemicals in either system in post #49. The only chemical that is recommended is the water that is presently and was previously used.

Good luck with your obvious attempts to alleviate the hard work presently involved and to insure an adequate supply of water to your livestock

Hi Linda, Last go - should work without input. hope it helps.
The pipes can be close together - only drawn for illustration. jt.

jt

I went to the doctors yesterday and I asked my GP, "what's the best cure for double vision?"
He turned to me and smiled, "Shut one eye."

Thank you, JT!! It does help!!!

My uncle used to use a wind operated agitator of the Windmill variety just to keep his agitated enough to keep them from freezing....

Worked fine, except when there was no wind......