The NSA and Krams New Laptop

Thanks for giving me an excuse to tell my funny, (not ha ha), story.

I've mentioned that I was getting blocked from certain websites, youtube videos, etc., in my effort to spread the truth.

Well, a couple of weeks ago, my entire internet connection started randomly going down...no rhyme or reason. I called ATT, and the girl ran a couple of checks and couldn't find anything...but I just got my brand new DSL modem. I haven't hooked it up yet, but I can't help but wonder.

In a similar vein, they've been doing this for a while.

They've got a real concern regarding our returning vets, and a worry about them being faithful to the constitution.

Through various programs, the government has been providing our vets with "free" laptop computers, supposedly to aid them in job hunting. Every damned one of them is equipped with tracking and eavesdropping software.

Now that you've got a new laptop, with all the "latest features" you probably won't lose your connection any more.

Strangely, it's been happening to me, too. I don't care, they'll never take me alive!

Just a new modem...and I'm thinking about having someone check it out before I hook it up.

I was just reading an article in NewsMax, about military robotics, and how the public only knows about a fraction of what they really have...and that by 2035, the FAA is projecting a minimum of 250,000 drones in the skies over the US.

As is your cell phone. A kidnapped girl was recovered after only two hours this summer when the cops followed her cell phone gps signal.

What the hell is wrong with that?

I don't have a cell phone.

...and there's nothing wrong with the cops using a gps signal to find a kidnapped girl.

I too for one, believe that every computers that are now given for "free" or handed out to every elementary and high school students are all equipped with detection schemes that monitors all of their actions... If you noticed most of the much later models of electronic items labeled as WiFi - ready are now a common features to find! Items such as play stations, TV, printers, etc. are good examples of these types of devices..

The comp sci guys at work told me for years that Bill Gates was in collusion with the NSA. They darn well would deny it. Back doors are a cool thing, neat how you can make centrifuges overspeed and suddenly decelerate. On a windows OS, imagine that.

Nineteen Eighty-Four - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"When George Orwell wrote 1984, the year that gives the book its title was still almost 40 years in the future. Some of the things Orwell imagined that would come to pass were the telescreen, a TV that observes those who are watching it"
Of course, back then we had not been cursed with laptops and cell phones.

Or, Brave New World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia maybe?

I think it's too late to stop the beast. We, the unwashed masses, have no friends in high places, and for the most part are expendable.

Since public was convinced (...) that letting some of its freedom and rights ("some" is no different to "all but some"), is not that bad, cause it helps good guys catch the bad guys, only hell is the limit. And the reason is that the "self-constrained authority" in real world, is the same as the perpetual motion machine in engineering. Has not been... invented yet. S.M.

This blog reminds me of an old possibly Scottish saying:-

Everyone's Crazy Except You and Me...And I'm Not So Sure About You!

But seriously, if the NSA was bugging as many as some people think they do,there are not enough people and computers around at the NSA to check them all out. It will be mainly suspects and their contacts...

The DDR had more than 10% of the population working for the secret services, keeping track of the rest, and they could only "watch" a tiny proportion of the non secret service people - where did it get them? NOWHERE!!

If the NSA are bugging foreign nationals and "in-house" radicals, then let them, there will be more than enough complaints (rightly so) if another incident happens like 9/11.......

If they want to bug my computer, go ahead, I have nothing to hide.

No problem Andy....

You just happen to be in our coverage area. Thank you for your cooperation.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/nsa-spies-on-500-million-german-data-connections-a-908648.html

I bet I am on their list as I talk to you Guys almost every day and you are all VERY suspect!!

Andy = SPY in Latin?

Spied upon!!!

do you really think that a law will stop anybody?

The Night Watch is a chilling book. I recommend it.

Chili, Cuba and a few others are carefully explained and attempted to justify.

No. The constitution sure isn't slowing them down.

We need a supreme court appointed, equivalent to an internal affairs department, like the police have.

I don't see this stopping though. It's probably already too late, and in a few years, any online criticism of the US government will likely be stopped in it's tracks.

That's what the Supreme Court should be, the final answer, or suppose to be.

The Supreme Court is a farce.

When they declared that elections are open to the highest bidder, with the deepest pockets, their impartiality and credibility vanished completely!

As to my post....

Why do you think they started using modern networking technologies? if not to further advance and continue their corrupt legacies.. Now a days you'll find most consumer electronic devices to be WiFi ready or enabled.... from printers, TV, play stations, etc. They've started early in their snooping business, by issuing every students a free internet ready laptops, ipads or handheld notebooks to elementary and high school students disguised as one of their learning tools! Where do you think is the end?

It's not going to; I just wish I knew what the endgame was. It's not about thwarting terrorism.

Some food for thought:

http://investmentwatchblog.com/were-in-the-midst-of-a-global-currency-reset/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Parliamentary_Assembly

https://www.un.org/en/sustainablefuture/sustainability.shtml

http://www.mercatornet.com/demography/view/10244

Not saying it's happening, but a sure fire way to deal with some of these problems, would be to eliminate a few billion nonessential personnel. Data files would help determine who stays and who goes.

Well Lyn, if we somehow end up with a republican administration, there's a good chance that they will flip all of this outrageous abuse around, and start targeting the Sierra Club, PETA, Code Pink, Planned Parenthood, ACLU, Greenpeace..et.al.

It's still wrong, and I will be standing right alongside these groups, and fighting it tooth and nail.

Do you honestly think that once the tea party is wiped off the map, and conservatives are shut down and shut up, that the government is going to leave everybody alone?

I really wish that instead of cheering, our liberal friends would realize that the specific targeting of conservatives, by the federal government...is everybody's fight.

I won't sit back and watch our government target ANY person, group, or belief system, for elimination, and I don't care if it's someone who's beliefs are something that I hate. I will be there with them.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but, the IRS was not trying to eliminate these groups. They, both sides, were given extra scrutiny, as they should have been.

And, the only reason anybody ever heard about it was that it was a chance for one side to spread dirt about the other.

No they weren't trying to eliminate, just push back anything they could do to influence the elections...... And there's a difference between investigation these groups (which included both conservatives and liberals) and actually stonewalling their tax exempt status which were primary conservative,

"which were primary conservative"

So, primarily, conservative groups were trying to get around the rules? Is that it?

The point being that these organizations were trying to make essentially illegal contributions to influence elections, instead of playing by the rules.

That's isn't it, Twist it any way you want it to support your views........

Twist? I'm not twisting anything!

OpenSecrets.org: Money in Politics -- See Who's Giving & Who's ...
Auctioning Democracy: The Rise of Super PACs and the 2012 Election

Elections go to the highest bidder. Not the best candidate.
Even you can't deny that money talks; principles walk.

Yes Twisted like your original slanted post...... There's plenty of foolish remarks coming out of all the parties....... But you only make and pull a selection that suit your bias..... Just like I did

"IRS auditor reaffirms that conservatives, not liberals, were targeted"

An the above is an excerpt from the link below:

http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/27/irs-auditor-reaffirms-conservatives-not-liberals-w/?page=all

And of course there where a 'few' liberals on the targeted list..... Actually they were just flagged, not targeted and stonewalled ........

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/18/politics/irs-scandal/

But an apology from the IRS?...... Always Makes things better......

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/irs-apologizes-targeting-conservative-groups

The problem I have with posting this bs from the bs of a thread...... Is the source..... Just look at who finances this non profit ????.org web sites, as far as the media web sites both you and I know who owns them.

Then why do you bother?

There is no longer any unbiased reporting, anywhere in this country.

It's all about money and power.

Why, couple of reasons....

people posting bias, then claiming to be unbiased, just pointing out the hypocrisy...... It's not all politicians that are the problem.....

And ....... Most important, it's a slow day for me right now, and I have about 5% battery life left before I close down for the night.........

I'm sure I can come up with more reasons, but they'd be just as lame...... But, that alone should do for now.

Okay. Shut them up, and shut them out of the process...which, in practical terms, is elimination.

All I know, is that something's not right. The republicans want the tea party types gone also....and by extension, anyone that demands adherence to the constitution is the enemy of both parties. That scares me.

...and this speaks volumes.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57601445-83/nra-joins-aclu-in-suit-against-nsas-surveillance-program/

Yet another good answer....

It is very possible that it is not about terrorism per se, but as it is, everybody else and their brothers are using it as the excuse, a smoke screen to whatever ulterior they can use! No differences to Al Gore's capitalizing on the make believe "global warming" business motive!

Most of the problems also lies on the naiveties common with our folks who just accept whatever policies our government makes! Then comes the thing labeled as being "politically correct"?? coupled with the present parenting methodologies prevailing among the "X generations"??

Andy, I fully agree with you. If you are not terrorist and just using your P.C for your work or for fun, then what is wrong?, let anybody bug your P.C.

You guys are making a heck of a leap of faith, by assuming that the people that are monitoring your every move, have nothing but good intentions, and are as good and honest as the day is long.

Andy's right, that it's a lot of data, but I'm assuming that it's not just being collected, but being separated out, (all automatically), and building profiles on each and every one us. These would include all phone and email contacts, all purchases, using cellphone GPS to track where we go...pretty much everything.

It's fun to pretend that government is comprised of nothing but really nice, honest people, but we've never seen that in human history.

Kramart, Let any body steal data from my P.C. There is no gold mine in my P.C. Let them process my data, also know my purchases of grocery and bakery items. I am retired person, what they can get from me?. I have cell phone without GPS. My life is transparent..

Do you have a line?

Since you are doing nothing wrong, would it also be okay to have your home searched every day?

Let it be searched but also be cleaned up of dirt everyday. . I will save $0.50 daily which I pay to my maid. It is India damn cheap. Not $10/ hr as in U.S.

I don't think you would want government agents going through your things every day.

...and I seriously doubt they would leave things clean.

Sorry, but that was a stupid question.

Tell me someone's name who has their home searched every day please?????

Me, yesterday it was looking for my cell phone, before that it was my glasses, before that it was the tv remote, and also the day before that..... And before that, I had to find where I put my coffee down, before that it was......

;)

What if I am building a business with my partners in China?

Then you assemble your computer yourself, and don't let them "talk" to each other.

you're not American I think you're missing the point. if you were a criminal you know the government can stop you and go through your belongings. but if you're just the average person who is living your life you don't have the expectation that the government is going to turn you upside down to see if anything good falls from your pockets some of us here actually cherish all that freedom and liberty stuff and are sickened to know our privacy is no longer ours and just doing the right thing isn't good enough more and more these days. I don't care to live in a police state so it bothers me to know this type of behavior is being well documented these days, when no one knew, no one cared. now everyone is hearing about this behavior and its disturbing

Funny how people are when it comes to law enforcement.

When a group of terrorists destroy a major USA financial hub, openly attack the pentagon, and kill way too many good innocent people everyone was/is angrily screaming; "How could this happen? Where was law enforcement and why didn't they prevent it?"

Then our govenrment adapts an agressive policy to prevent such actions and all we can do is complain about the methods. Seriously?

Is it possible for someone in the security monitoring system to misuse their power and access?

Of course it is but it it isn't very probable and certainly would not apply to a large number of citizens.

I too do not like where our world is today and the freedoms we have lost but we have to remember what caused us to get here and realize that the only way those responsible for protecting us can stem the criminal tide is to use profiling and counter IT technology.

We expect to be protected at all times but are unwilling to wait an extra few minutes at a DUI roadblock or at an airport security checkpoint to acheive the security level required for us to be protected.

As far as everyone being monitored by an NSA person, it doesn't work that way.

The NSA and other security profiling systems use high speed software that scans the DATA and "triggers" on specific high risk points of interest.

If the system pulls your profile signifying a need for possible investigation then a person or group of people will review the information more in depth and make a decision.

A pain in the backside? Certainly could be if your actions are suspicious or you have a background that could be high risk.

I for one am perfectly willing to be subjected to these minor discomforts and time delays in order to keep my family and friends form being maimed and/or killed by some hate-driven extremist(s).

When our national security is threatened, in the past we lost some of our liberties until the threat past.

Unfortunately, our liberties are threatened for whatever reason other then national security.

And that is what I don't stand for.

When a group of terrorists destroy a major USA financial hub, openly attack the pentagon, and kill way too many good innocent people everyone was/is angrily screaming; "How could this happen? Where was law enforcement and why didn't they prevent it?"

We found out the answer to that. Law enforcement was asleep at the wheel, and the warnings they received from the flight schools were ignored.

We expect to be protected at all times but are unwilling to wait an extra few minutes at a DUI roadblock or at an airport security checkpoint to acheive the security level required for us to be protected.

I don't expect to be protected at all times, and once the rest of our constitution is shredded, we will be nothing more than another third world, banana republic dictatorship...but I guess we'll be safe.

It is a LONG way from the Gestapo, or Torquamada. A LOOOOOOOG way. Genghis Khan was so strict that they said a virgin with a stack of gold could travel through ninety degrees of longitude in perfect safety. This was a sort of Pax Romana, but I wonder if the people who lived their lives under that regime complained. Of if they saw all the gangstas, wise guys and war lords heads on stakes outside of town as good riddance.

Sorry, but I think it's gone too far.

How many millions of dollars have been spent and how many hours of time wasted in airports because ONE fanatic tried to light his shoe on fire?

NSA's vast new Utah data hub suffering from 'meltdowns' - report ...

Together the Utah center and Maryland's 28-acre computer farm span 228 acres-more than seven times the size of the Pentagon, and cost over $2,000,000,000.00.

Four years ago, the stated purpose of the megaplex near Salt Lake City was to amass foreign intelligence and warnings about hackers.

NSA Spy Center Melting Down, Burning Up Taxpayer Money

Opening of the highly controversial National Security Agency (NSA) data center in Utah has been delayed after major electrical problems at the facility led to a series of explosions and fires, according to news reports.

Official documents suggest there have been at least 10 power surges over the last year, each one costing taxpayers up to $100,000. Still, the problems are apparently not even properly understood yet, let alone close to being fixed.

It's more than a minor discomfort to someone in prison for mail fraud; even your postman can't open your mail, much less a government spy agency, without a specific court order. It is now clear that we are not talking meta data, we are undoubtably storing content for review. I am shocked once again while reading these posts. What I do, in my own house, if it does not impose on your rights, (which you can lawfully litigate or report me to authorities) is none of anyones GD business. I might be dealing drugs, laundering money, planning an attack. But to spy, you have to convince a judge that I might be. It's a great system, don't give it away to the fascists. Here I sit, a flaming liberal locked arms with Lyn. Merry Christmas! Happy New Year!

When is the private sector wireless web network coming?

It's gonna be fun to watch the flaming liberals respond to some of the spreading techniques that are being employed to "keep them safe".

http://personalliberty.com/2013/09/09/is-stop-and-frisk-coming-to-your-neighborhood/

I'm not sure I get it, you support stop and frisk?

NO!!!!

This is an even more blatant attack on the constitution than prying into our computers and phones.

I can't believe this is happening...and it's legal.

I also can't believe that the people of the US are okay with it. I guess it's fine if it's just being done to young minorities.

What they don't realize, is that if it's okay to do it to them, it's okay to do to anyone, anytime, anywhere. What the hell are we becoming?

I lost all respect for Sean Hannity when he came out in favor of this. He's no conservative, and he surely doesn't believe in constitutional rights.

I agree. Good Answer.

We lost respect for Mr. Hannity at differrent times (I lived in Atlanta in the 90's when he was a wart on Neal Boortz's butt) and maybe for different reasons, but I would agree, he is no conservative, nor am I.

Back to the post, Many liberals feel just as strongly opposed to the blatant constitutional attacks being foisted on us, by both parties. The wars in Iraq and Afganistan were terrible mistakes, driven by conservative ideology and the military industrial complex. These recent revelations of the massive scope of the information industrial complex, enormous taxpayer expenditures, and disregard for the Constitution is just a repeat of the same drivers. Identify opportunities to instill fear, create a business opportunity, and legislate massive revenue flows into the channel created by lobbiests. It ain't about 9-11. The complex part of the story takes care of itself. As a liberal, I'd rather spend the money on healthcare and education. It makes us a better nation, not a scared rich baby with a wet diaper.

To be honest, I was never a fan of Hannity. On his best days, he's an annoying broken record.

I have nothing against liberals. I think it's in all of our best interests to stick with a constitutional government. I'm fully aware of the cronyism that has taken place in regard to the military industrial complex.

The thing that puzzles me, is where are the liberals now?

Where is occupy Wall St, as we are pumping billions into it?

I agreed with a lot of my friends in the Bush years, but now that things are worse than ever, I can't find them. It's the same government, same abuse, different face.

Why doesn't it matter anymore?

That's not a rhetorical question...I'm genuinely perplexed.

Your problem is that you have defined liberals as being people who disagree with you across the board and you are unable to rearrange your prejudices enough to recognize it. In fact, most of us share many of your views, the main difference is that we believe we are "our brother's keeper" where you and your fellow tea party members think that if your brother can't keep up, he should fade away and die. Brother is used to represent all of the community in this.

Not true.

I don't have a problem with liberals. It's the force feeding of liberal/democrat policies when they are in charge of things, and the abject failure of those policies.

Just one small example, would be the stop and frisk that we are now seeing in the cities. The nanny state compassionate giveaway programs created a massive criminal class, due to the fact that the "benefits" only apply to single, unwed mothers, and males are booted out of the system at the age of 18.

They have grown up with no role models, no work ethic, nobody that made them go to school and do their homework....crime is the only option for survival, for many of them.

Now, in an effort to deal with the failure of the nanny state, we are seeing the rise of the unconstitutional police state, in which citizens are stopped for no reason and frisked.

Please spare me the "brother's keeper" line. The sooner we can all admit that these efforts were about gaining a voting block, the sooner we can start looking into real solutions.

when did Liberal become a dirty word? In most of the world, a Liberal is a person who believes that liberties are to upheld. Its conservatives in Canada (and the rest of the world) who become nazi's. I think that is part of the problem...you are so partisan you cannot see another person's point of view. I do not think I am the first to point this out....and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.

A Liberal, of course, has no difficulty in seeing another person's point of view...be it the abortion debate, or gay marriage, or (insert hot button of your choice)

Not that I cannot applaude your courage of your convictions. As long as they are YOURS and not some nut bar conservative who actually believes Snowdon's mutterings. Believe me...we have plenty of THOSE here in Canada.

political labels have been flip flopping in this country for the last 100 years....

I was just saying to my neighbor last night, that we need some new terms.

Liberal isn't a dirty word, nor is conservative. We've got some really bad people in our government that are attempting to completely destroy the system that built our country, it's not right to call them liberals. Tyrants is more appropriate.

I'm happy to see conservatives and liberals are joining forces to fight this rampant abuse of power.

So we should simply ignore for example the Taliban stopping girls going to school (and shooting them if they do!).

Also them blowing up very old statues and artifacts, just because they came from a different religion.

That women are just to be used for child bearing, the women will be stoned if they "screw around", even if forced by rape, but the men get off scot free!!!

I could go on and on......

you believe that's why we invaded Iraq and Afganistan?

Thought crimes should not be made illegal. I could think about blowing up a bridge, a shopping mall, or whatever, and I can tell you that YOU can and should do it. We can IM, or telephone each other to co-ordinate the attack or whatever, but until you walk into a shopping mall with 150 pounds of explosive on you...you are not breaking any laws. Even then, no doubt some tea bagger will say..."he has a right to carry".

The problem we all agree that there is a slippery slope. The real problem is where does the slope start? Me...I am not afeared of my own government. I once WAS the "man", and I believe that all in all, the "man" puts his pants on one leg at a time. There are good and bad. I also agree that with absolute authority comes absolute corruption. There are checks and balances in place...but often they are ignored by bullies, personal agenda people and dingbats.

Stop and frisk. Hmmm. Have you ever watched "The First 48"? I wonder if gangstas HAVE to take over the streets. Is there another way to disarm the streets? Would it be a good thing to do so?

(Oh well, the voice of reason is rarely given a GA.)

The real problem is where does the slope start?

Actually there are two questions......

And the second question which I believe is more important, is where will it end?

It will slide as far as we let it. Look at the abuses which take place in our prison systems when nobody steps in to stop it.

It won't end without an exit already in place. And even then it has to be viewed to make sure.

Opening your mail is the next step....they monitor your emails, and phone calls lest you discuss something they don't agree with...the last remaining thing is going through your mail to see what you are writing in private.

Actually there are several ways to read whats in closed envelopes without actually opening them....spray some freon on an envelope...it becomes transparent until it evaporates (which it does fairly quickly)and it doesn't leave any residue...or cause the ink to run. And thats without considering the many other more cost effective means. And computer software can electronically unfold the jumble of letters a folded page would present.

And if they can do it without physically opening them.....can't the argument be presented the warrant isn't needed.....much as looking through an open window VS. getting a search warrant to walk in the door and see the same thing?

Nope...not happy its going on at the level it is....because there is a huge difference between snooping on people not covered by the constitution (meaning non-Americans residing outside the USA) and snooping on innocent people that are looking for a reason to get a warrant on them.

I won't say what my line of work actually is......except say that in over 30 years in this region with various employers during those years...I've actually had involvement it parts of this over that time and don't rely on a biased News media to learn what I've learned first hand.

And its not just that the capacity exists to do something...but that there is a lack of controls to limit it. Because if you give some people the capacity to do something, a few won't abuse it, a few won't use it at all, but a few will milk it for all its worth to advance their own agenda.

GA

My thoughts entirely. But few other here are happy in this method it would appear!!!

Is it more disturbing that it is happening, or that it is being exposed ?

Are you sure about that?

http://www.efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=113608

Relax folks.

Not all of us are being subjected to snooping; some are protected.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm

"Beauty fades, dumb is forever."

Probably politicians?

I have spent sometime talking to Turkish teachers in Turkey, they laugh that the west lets these mosques command such things, they do not allow it in Turkey.

Also the government pays the religious leaders and keeps them in check....its not a perfect system, but it appears to be better than what we have in Europe.....

Thats because despite all the protests to the contrary by the Obama worshipers...Obama is and always has been a Muslim...and all of his actions thus far have been to support Muslims at the expense of Christians and Jews whom he has repeatedly thrown under the bus so to speak.

No reason to even go there.

This problem is government wide, and it started before he got on the scene.

You're wrong about the reason too. I think it's more about political correctness, and the misguided belief that if we embrace our enemies, they will stop wanting to kill us.

Its not about political correctness...its about punishing anyone and everyone he sees as not in his corner....look at how the IRS has been brought into this to play the part of the Gestapo.....and its not new......and it didn't start in 1997....this is essentially what happened with File-gate and how Hillary was collecting dossiers on republicans and using any means possible to retaliate against anyone not seen as friendly.

All Obama did was take that and ratchet it up to previously un-thought of levels....and it all ties in with his disgust with the Constitution proven by his repeated actions to circumvent the legal process at every stage it proves to hinder his agenda...

Now with that said...I do think all politicians are crooked.....the issue is how crooked a certain left leaning party has become in recent years.

Absolute bullshit. Smoothy, you are delusional. No wonder we have some moronic politicians, just look at who is putting them in office. We are in deep trouble in the USA, and it's because of people who create racial and religious labels. Sounds a little like Afghanistan, doesn't it? The right in this country was refined and revived as a reactionary response to worldwide terrorism. They share much more than either will admit. One God, my God, will triumph over your God.

I'm far from delusional. I've got...30+ years working in the DC area, most of it directly with the various agencies and offices .....some of that directly with topic at hand in some way shape or form .....vs. other people that get everything they know second and third hand online and from questionalbe media "sources"?

I might have never worked in the NSA or FBI....but they don't do everything inhouse, they outsource and subcontract a LOT stuff out....and I have worked for those.

I you work in any field long enough you are able to effectively read between the lines of what you do know. And have a really good idea of the parts that you don't.

There is a lot that I can't and won't repeat for various reasons....both legal and for reasons of professional integrity.

But you are free to believe anything you wish...if it makes you happy doing so.

Everybody seems to be reacting as if this is something new, it's not. The FBI started a large scale operation in 1997, the other agencies are just playing catch-up. As Woody Allen once said, "...Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you..."

The "new" part, (based on your link), is that it now includes everyone, and it no longer requires a court order.

Those are fairly big differences.

From the same link, "...A report in 2007 described the successor system as being located "inside an Internet provider's network at the junction point of a router or network switch" and capable of indiscriminately storing data flowing through the provider's network.^[10]"

Most of the ISPs I spoke to said the traffic out of the Carnivore machine was equal to all the traffic into it despite the fact that it was supposed to be "selectively sniffing" and forwarding only court ordered info.

Okay. So it should have been stopped back then.

This sort of thing was going on LONG before 1997, several decades before....its only been growing with the capacity to do more of it faster and easier then it was previously.

And the scope of whom they watch has expanded to political oponents....and the people who vote against them, and not just the people who present actual threats to the country.

Whatever the public happens to hear about only scratches the surface of the daily attacks on the US' infrastructure. That's how a transparent president was turned into a realist and we ended up where we are today.

You are allowed to hear just enough to sway opinion exactly the way the government wants...most of the time.

Enjoy your lives.

I'll say this. When we agree on something, liberals are the greatest. Unlike conservatives, they are always ready to take it to the street. Right on!!!

When conservatives voice their views, some dumbass reminds them that America wasn't founded on Christianity...like that matters...

Everybody already knows that America wasn't founded on Christianity, conservatives, (which are typically more familiar with the constitution), know it better than anybody. They certainly don't need to be reminded by a clown.

good answer.

I'm a clown? Do I amuse you? Do I make you laugh?

I'll call my friends at the NSA (on Monday, of course) and make you their special project....oh, wait...you already are!

I was talking about the central commander of all clowns.

The NSA knows who I was talking about.