Negotiations For Starting A New Job.

In the European Union, there is a thing called the Working Time Directive. It is not lawful to work or to ask someone to work more than 45 hours per week for any period longer than 17 week unless the incumbent has signed to say that it is acceptable. So one may decline overtime over this limit with impunity. It is usual to put the working hours expected into the Contract of Employment, which will be in compliance with the Directive.

I am not overly worried about it really. I can find other work easily enough.

I just would like to make it clear up front as to my reasons of why I do not want excessive hours and then have some ground to stand on if it becomes an issue.

At my last job we had a guy who was supposed to be a two day a week part time employee but being he did not get it in writing that that was all the time he agreed to work for he got put on for 48 - 60+ work weeks until we had the company walkout which in itself was largely based on too many people being expected to work unreasonable hours and schedules just so that our manger and his pet could have the gravy shift work and do as little as possible at everyone else's expense.

Largely in a way I am just trying to get away from jobs where 60+ hour work weeks are expected of me when I was told that 40 - 50 was the norm when I sign on.

Make sure the expected hours are in the contract that both parties sign. Good luck.

<unsubscribes>

"Personally I would look for a position with less required hours...."

Yea that's more where I am heading. I am figuring that if they will play nice I will consider them but if not I really don't have much interest in working there.

I really have no interest in going to work at 5 am and not being home until after 7PM 5 - 6 days a week. 20 years ago when I was single ambitious and dumb that was fine but now well you know. (I'm older, wiser and lazier. A lot lazier)

An interview is sometimes like a "dance". The interviewer wants to see what you have to offer, what your experience is, if he/she thinks you can do the work, will you be a positive factor in the company's current and future operations, etc.

You want to find out what the job is, what is expected of your knowledge and skills, what the social atmosphere is like, what the people are like to work with/for, how much is the pay (but many times don't make an issue of this then), what the benefits are, etc.

After the first round the second round goes somewhat like the first but you are asking questions of them and those of you based on what the first round brought out. All during this time the interviewer is probably paying close attention to your body language. You also of him, but not so consciously.

Round three, if it ever comes to that, is more of a settlement and agreement phase. Both parties are satisfied with the other and are working out the finer points. This is not the time to bring up major factors in your favorable decision to take the job. That should have been eased in during the first phase. Don't project that it is a major item with you (although it is) just listen and discuss lightly if needed. If the hours are not suitable with them they won't offer you the job. Most times they will not bend and go out and hire someone to fill in the hours you won't work. They will find someone who will work the long hours. In most cases, except in dire situations, this is probably what you want as best for you. Another job with suitable hours is better for you.

Almost all the time the interviewer is talking with you he/she is judging you more by your body language that they are by you intelligence or skill. If they are not doing this on purpose they are doing it subconsciously. Use it to your advantage!

Although not necessarily the best thing to do: If I were in your shoes, when told me that I would have to work those long hours I probably would have stood up, shaken their hand, said the conditions of the job are not suitable to me at that time, thanked them and left. Note- don't burn any bridges behind you. Someday in the future you may be calling the cards to them when they want you.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Having gone thru the interview and not making your wants known is the first mistake. IMHO.

Prospective employers want to know that you wont hold back on them, and it relates to trust. So now when you go back and throw this roadblock ( thats how they would see it ) at them, they will think ok whats next thats hidden.

Always speak your mind, within reason, and you will get the respect you deserve, if not the job.

You will also sleep well. What's more important to you ?

Oh I made it very clear about my hours and why and I did not hide anything about my previous work either good or bad.

Compared to the people they have been getting in apparently I am still a good candidate!

When you heard, "70 - 80+ a week" should have been the time to speak up, terminate the interview or at least let them know what hours you are willing to work.

Lyn's got a good point here. It would also be telling to watch their reaction when you said no more than 40-50 hours. Did they nod and mumble, 'That's what you think.' or were they more understanding.

Really understanding of it. They know that the upper management has the workload way overbooked and its hurting them on getting decent quality workers.

They would rather have a guy who can get 40 - 50 hours of real work done in 40 - 50 hours than some dummy who takes 70 - 80 to get what the other guy can do in half that done.

I spoke up right away that that was way more than I am willing to put in and if they need people to work 80 hour weeks they either need to double their workforce or get a few of the managers who are over booking the work load out of their offices and out doing real work.

I got a 100% agreement back on that comment.

IMHO there seems to be a disconnect between a project and operations here. It is not unusual for a project to have weeks of work where the work load on one employee will exceed 70 man hours a week. With only 168 hours a week available to man and deity, expecting any operations work loading to take more than 50+ man hours is proof of management incompetence.

So is this a project or operations job you are negotiating?

Is ND a "right to work" state?

North Dakota is, but this doesn't sound like question of union involvement.

.

Sometimes people get 'right to work' and 'employment at will' a little mixed up. Pretty much every state has a default of 'employment at will'.

.

Any contract probably would need an explicit clause requiring an objectively reasonable cause for termination, to make any agreements about hour limits hold any sway.

.

Of course having a qualified scumbag review the contract would be best if money and scumbag allergies were no obstacle.

After I sent the question I saw that ND was one. Just wondering because most operators are in the union and never saw a schedule for them of 80 hrs a week maybe a two schedule. But if you are nonunion I can see why they are pulling it.

I made a bad assumption about why you were asking. I should have said that I have confused 'right to work' and 'employment at will' in the past.

Yeah, the terms need to be stated in clear terms more often, so people will understand what they mean.

"At Will" Employment - Regardless on any contract, either the employee or the employer can terminate the employment at any time for any (legal) reason or for no reason. (When this is abused, the employer is trying to fire the employee for an illegal reason, such as retaliation, and claims 'no reason' to try and hide the illegal activity.)

"Right to Work" state - Union membership cannot be forced as a condition of employment. If a Union has an official presence, it must protect all eligible employees equally, regardless of their membership in the union or dues status. This means that the state cannot have any 'Union shops,' where only Union members are hired, or joining the Union is a requirement for new hires. In practice, "Right to Work" states are effectively anti-Union, as the laws make it hard for the Unions to have an official presence without bleeding from the balance sheet.

As you say if the union has an official presence, it must protect all eligible employees equally regardless of membership in the union. In some "right to work" states not only does the union have to do this but in compensation for it the employee must pay the union dues or an appropriate part thereof without membership in the union.

The non-union employee does not get that representation or the benefits for free.

Good Luck, Old Salt

If this is an engineering job, they will only get 36 - 40 hours of productive work a week, even if you "put in" 80.

As an experiment we cut our work week from 40 down to 37.5 - guess what - it made no difference to the weekly schedule.

Except perhaps for lawyers , no one can maintain 12 hour + days for any extended period of time and stay creative or productive.

I have only one life to live - I try to keep work averaging the 40hr mark, and also have a life on the side.

Short answer is get it in writing, like a clause in your employment contract and then ask the HR person or whoever to initial that clause as well.

Is that the other driving job you were offered?

One key detail you haven't mentioned is how the job is renumerated. Is this an hourly position or salary?

I understand most labor laws have provisions for payment for overtime that ratchets up the renumeration as milestones are passed. For example, in my area the pay goes to time and a half after 8 hours, and to double time after 11 hours. No workarounds. This is a given for hourly workers. Even if the worker agrees to something else, if someone complains, months later, the letter of the law is enforced.

You might quite enjoy the big bucks! New parts for the old Case crawler loader!!

For salaried workers, the hours get grey and the overtime renumeration gets pretty vague as well. I worked for years under a company that basically said, "you take an hour off for each hour you work over 40 per week". No money on the table, no overtime even considered. "Oh, yeah, and we don't administer it...you figure it out." Most people never even came close to taking the equivalent time off to what they worked. Including me. What an idiot.

The mantra here was "put in the time necessary to get the job done. That's why we give you this meagre monthly salary".

Anyway, I suspect you are looking at a salaried job where they can expect you to work long hours with no compensating pay? 'Cause if it was the other way the overtime pay costs to work you long hours is probably more than just hiring an extra person.

Sounds kinda fishy to me.

I'm with you. Find an easier job.

Jon.

Hi,

i see you mention about thnkgs mentioned during the interview, but not in the contract etc,
this has happend to be before, so when I now have important meeting or interviews, I record them.

Ill admit it tends to upset soem people knowing that i want it reciorded, but if thery are a honest company and will not go back on there work, it shouldnt be an issue.

If they do ubject then they possibly are not worth working for,

unless you need the job, then hide the recording device !

If you are physically strong and capable of working 12 hours a day, and your family allows you, also if you are paid 50% more than your normally expected salary, then only you should take this type of job.

After a few weeks (2-3) of 12hrs/day for 6 or 7 days a week is only possible in rare occasions to continue this. Physically your body is not made for it and you develop injuries or illnesses (scientific fact but I won't cite it now) that make you even more prone to them. Mentally your mind does not function as efficiently or as thoroughly as it needs to be to keep your body functioning correctly and safely. If you put in 2 weeks at 7 days /week that is 20 days in a row! If not physically depleting, the mind can't take that except in unusual circumstances and even then it will not function as it should. I did it as a young man during summers earning money for school and "social activities" but it took a toll on me.

Proof- ask those who have done it! I have done it occasionally during extenuating but short term periods such as emergencies and shut downs during my career but recovery took longer than expected and it also took its toll mentally and socially. It is easy for someone who hasn't done it or hasn't done it for an extended period of time to say it is worthwhile. A human being is not a machine and cannot be treated or operated as a machine. Ask the person who has done it. There comes a time when money isn't worth the long hours that it takes to earn it. Also few families will tolerate the continuous working after a while.

Good Luck, Old Salt

It's an employer's market, and not much wiggle room on your end.

They'll either let you work the hours you want, or they won't, and will hire someone else.

They don't care about your house project.

Do you mean that "Beggars not Choosers"?. I do not assume op's case. I am talking in general. Is situation so bad?. I can only sympathize for the people.

It's necessarily bad.

A person can choose to take a job, or not. The company can agree to the OP's conditions, or not.

Nobody is forced to do anything.

70-80 hour week's sounds like management or salaried, if your management skills are good, you should be able to trim the hours. If it's hourly (doubtful) it's unreasonable.

I suspect you have been self employed too long, and will be unhappy working the type of job where they want to pay for 40 and have you work double. Under those circumstances you might as well be self employed or doing contract work. Maybe take up farming. Truck drivers typically get screwed.

I negotiated my current job and salary based on a 40/hr/week expectation. There was no mention by the interviewer that the job involved anything else, except for vague references to "getting the job done".

I accepted the job and reported 42 hours the first week. My boss informed me that the "company" expected 45 hours/wk minimum. My response was not likely unless I had a deadline to meet. They also, after the fact, told me that by accepting the job I was agreeing to a minimum one year commitment.

I respectfully responded that Virginia is a right to work state that abides by customary employment standards. If they had problems regarding my employment expectations and needs, I would welcome a request for me to leave.

6.5 years later I'm still here, except for a 6 month voluntary vacation where my a-hole boss got fired and the new boss asked me to come back.

Hooker

You can consider negotiating a compensation package so that every extra hour they make you work hurts them as much as it hurts you. Companies frequently understand the bottom line, and you'll be rich(er) if they don't change their ways.

Like: salary up to 45 hours, double the equivalent hourly rate for every extra hour. Hell, demand triple the rate.

Like you, I'm DONE working my ass off to make someone else rich.

Been there, done that.

First you should check your local (state) labour laws, I am sure there must be some. There will be statutes laid out for what hours one can work and at what pay rates (regular, 1 1/2 times, etc.) are to be paid. Should also lay out when you are entitled to breaks(and their duration). Even if your job is considered to be "federal" rather than "state" (i.e. armed forces) then there will still be statutes.

But,,,,,,, there will be exceptions as to who gets paid what. Some of those occupations which may be exempt are the like of policeman, fireman, health care providers and certain professional occupations.

If you are going to sign an employment contract, then read the fine print very carefully as you may be signing away your rights under the law(s).

Well to sum it up it a hourly pay job part of it is truck driving and part is hands on labor.

No this is not my first choice job either and I made that clear in the interview as well.

The job is running a hydrovac truck which is basically a big pressure washer that blasts a hole in ground along with huge vacuum cleaner that sucks the mud and dirt out as the pressure washer digs the hole.

Most of the work is for doing more precision digging work around underground utility lines and the like.

As I go I am closing in on 40 years old in a few months and to be honest I know I do not have the stamina or mindset to do 70 - 80 hour work weeks any more. I made that very clear multiple times in the interview. I said either four 12's or five 10's and that is it and if they can't get their work done in that time they need to hire more people.

The guy I interviewed with was very understanding and also had a pretty strong agreement that the company bit off way more than they can chew work wise. They booked work based on how many pieces o equipment they had to do work but totally overlooked that fact that half the machines do not have operators to run them.

Now my wife however has no problems with the idea of me doing 80 hour workweeks because and as she put it yesterday, 'Thats not so many hours. There are like 250 some hours in a week you know so that will still lever you plenty of time to work on the house'

I for one could only find 168 of them and I will be damned if I am going to allot 90+ of them to being gone for a single job.

For a follow up I just had a phone conversation with the guy I was dealing with yesterday and they want me at 40 - 50 hours a week and will sign a contract for it.

I requested a meeting with the top people at the company as well so I can find out who they are and what exactly their expectations are plus so that they can get to know me better as well. I was told that they would be happy to meet me!

I was also told that I would be working with the in town crews being that the city has a noise ordinance that keeps them from doing much heavy work before 8 AM or after 6 PM with their equipment.

On top of that they may be putting me in a work position to float around some days to help out with maintenance work and other secondary workloads inside the company which is what I excel at! That's what I am meeting with the higher ups about.

Does the truck require a CDL aren't there limits to hours you can operate a truck in a 24 hr period?

If memory serves, I believe the limit is 8 hours driving, followed by 16 hours 'rest' (not-driving). I believe you're allowed to take some of your rest dime in the middle of the riving time, so you could drive 4 hours out, spend two hours loading/unloading or having lunch, then drive 4 hours back, then be able to drive again in 14 hours, but you can't use the change of the calendar day to mark the end of a drive period if you're driving on both sides of the change.

Granted, that doesn't mean that some truckers try to 'game the system' by keeping two sets of books, and using 'uppers' to stay awake for 16-24+ hours straight and get more miles in during the day. Frankly, I wouldn't care about what those guys do to themselves, except they seem to be doing it when they're driving along the same highway I'm using to get to and from work. A bad driver in a Ford F-150 is one thing, a bad/sleepy driver in command of an 18 wheeler, now that's a whole new level of terror on the road.

"Now my wife however has no problems with the idea of me doing 80 hour workweeks because and as she put it yesterday, 'Thats not so many hours. There are like 250 some hours in a week you know so that will still lever you plenty of time to work on the house'"

A 40 hour workweek is five 8 hour shifts, an 80 hour workweek would be five 16 hour shifts, with only 8 hours break between them to go home, sleep, and come back for the next shift. With a situation like that, weekends would probably be spent in a coma to try and recover.

Where would you fit eating, or bathing? I'd say your wife is missing a few key details in her 'that's not so bad' evaluation, but we had that conversation in another thread. You have my sympathy.

A little crude math based on the length of work each week and the days to do it in the following scenarios makes you a not so nice husband. I certainly would not want to be around you if these were the cases:

Given: 70 hrs minimum to 80 hrs maximum per week; 30 min. shower & breakfast; 30 min. commute each way; 1ea 15 min coffee before start of "punch on" for work day; 2 coffee breaks (paid) during shift; 30 min. lunch unpaid after 4 hrs work; OT starts after 8 hrs of work; 1 coffee break during OT; 5 or 6 days/wk.; and start of day (wake up) at 5:00am.

All this approximately comes out to 70 hrs in 5 days= 70 hrs; 5:00am wake up till 7:30pm arrive home, balance of day for sleep and other = 9-1/2 hrs

80 hrs in 5 days = 5:00am wake up till 9:00pm arrive home, balance of day for sleep and other = 8 hrs

70 hrs in 6 days = 5:00am wake up till 6:15pm arrive home, balance of day for sleep and other = 11 hrs

80 hrs in 6 days = 5:00am wake up till 7:45pm arrive home, balance of day for sleep and other = 9-1/2 hrs

Based on 8 hrs sleep, the best you will get is 3 hours (70 hrs in 6 days) for anything else. An old saying my mother repeated was "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". Modern version is "All work and no play makes tcmtech a dull boy". As for the wife, let her do a week's worth of medium to heavy house work at the rate of 16 hrs/day for 5 consecutive days. I don't think she will make it and will be complaining after 6 hours the first day.

It is easy for someone else to say it is OK if they have never done it themselves. You have the right ideaàDON'T!

Good Luck, Old Salt

"As for the wife, let her do a week's worth of medium to heavy house work at the rate of 16 hrs/day for 5 consecutive days. I don't think she will make it and will be complaining after 6 hours the first day.

It is easy for someone else to say it is OK if they have never done it themselves. You have the right ideaàDON'T!"

I tend to not put much faith in her views of reality. Especially when it comes to numbers and actual time it takes to do something. She can barely make it through a 8 hour day 40 hour workweek sitting at a desk where she does maybe 4 - 5 actual hours of work a day while there. Yesterday she did zero and was still 'dead tired' when she got home.

As far as me getting a job it's largely because she wants us to have more money for her to spend but at at the expense of her having to put forth more actual effort to fund her extra wants in life. However I can assure you that I will have more money to spend and that as far as it will go. I already pay over half the bills and keep everything is in good working order here so I have very little want for getting a 40 - 50 hour job just so that she can spend more.

Personally I could get her hired there for a hydrovac truck assistant where she would not need any of the commercial licence stuff and she could work all the hours she wanted. My guess is about one 14 hour day of blasting out mud with a pressure washer and sucking it up with a giant vacuum cleaner and she would quit.

I hope my negotiations with the bigwigs next week go more productively than what the ones at home with my wife are going as.

She pointed out that I can start paying for half of our family insurance now.

I told her that I will pay just as much of a percentage to her as she paid to me against our family insurance when I was the insurer at my last job.

She then replied to the effect that she didn't pay me anything. I said I know. That's why I am contributing the same amount you contributed to me back then. Besides if you really need more money you can get a second job being you only work 40 hours and according to you there are 250 some hours in a week so you should have plenty of free time for a second job.

(Seriously I swear she is a twin sister to a few of the former managers I have had over the years.)

tcmtech-

She sounds like she is the long lost twin sister of my wife. Either that or she is the reincarnation of my Mother-In-Law. Come to think about it she has more traits of the MIL than those of the wife.

I certainly don't envy you, as I'm sure many others don't. We hope you are able to arrange for a livable schedule if you take the job. Also hope things improve on the home front. Neither one is very enjoyable without the other.

Many of us have been in similar, but not the exact, situations that you are challenged with. Most of us made it through it. Some maybe not as well as others and not as well as it was before but we're still here.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Most of the time she is pretty good about this sort of stuff. It's when she starts dreaming up things that she wants but knows she doesn't have the skillsets drive or follow through to do them herself is where the problem comes.

Today I can tell she is a bit upset that I told them I won't start for another week or so because I have a temp job with a local school driving bus while one of the new drivers is waiting to get her licence.

Well actually the issue my wife has is I get paid to ride along with the new driver as the licensed person while she is driving on her permit. Basically I am getting paid well to ride the bus for 2 hours a day and hang out with the kids and it's making her jealous because it's even easier work than hers and I get paid better on the per hour equivalent too!

'Nufff!! Stop whinging and get to work!

(In the mind of the CEO): " this person is insisting on how little work he is prepared to do...what a !%#$#@! cheek ?? Doggone it, in my day we were happy to push a broom if necessary, and for no extra reward...."

and for no extra reward...."

....absolutely, but, definitely not for unrewarded extra time.

One did whatever needed to be done, sure, none of this "that's not my job " nonsense. When you did the job you still got paid for it, and normally on a time based rate...and with a thankyou very much as well.

What has changed?

Excellent answer!!!!!

Get a life dot com!

Not off topic at all.

Most of my career was spent as a skilled tradesman and I was paid hourly. But my last job was as an "engineer" and I was paid a fixed salary, translated: slave labor. For maybe 30 hours a week I was performing "engineering work" but the rest of the time I was out in the shop after hours and Saturdays and sometimes Sundays working as a tool maker, mechanic, electrician, and even doing production work,without any additional compensation.

I will never take a salaried position again

If they have that much work to keep 1 person busy for 80 hours a week why not hire 2 people and have two happy employees than one unhappy tired and grumpy employee.

I know in my case anything over 50 hours a week my production goes way down anyway so they aren't getting what they want anyway.

"If they have that much work to keep 1 person busy for 80 hours a week why not hire 2 people and have two happy employees than one unhappy tired and grumpy employee."

They can't find people willing to work here. Unlike the majority of the US North DAkota is experiencing a severe shortage of willing and able workers to do the work we have available.

The people who can do the work are either already employed elsewhere or they can't pass the basic drug and fitness tests to get hired on or they are simply too lazy to go looking for a job.

Of course offering more money or moving expenses to North Dakota to attract workers from the other states is out of the question.

Look at the inflated cost of rent, real estate or even a spot in a campground....if you were there before the 'boom', owning property, you benefit, if you're moving into the state, or a renter it probably doesn't look quite as good.

The bottom tier rate for shelf stockers is over $20.00 hour in N.D.

Are you trying to tell us that capitalism, in the rules of supply and demand does not work in North Dakota?

I suspect, much like a number of other natural phenomena, the effects of capitalism are only strong within a certain temperature range. Much of North Dakota is probably below the minimum critical temperature for the effects of capitalism to be a strong influence for a large part of the year.

How could you possibly infer that from what I said?

Although this is a perverse manifestation of supply and demand brought on by an influx of highly paid workers vying for the meager services available.

Sort of a boom town mentality, not unlike the Klondike gold rush days.

What happens when the drilling is done and nobody's making $100.00 an hour any more?

Starting wage at McDonalds or any other fast food place usually hits $13 - $15 and hour for zero experience during the summer time.

Retail store workers are typically $14 - $17 zero experience.

Actually most of those with the ambition and brains to make being here work for them are already here.

Those that stayed behind are typically not the ones the fit into our society where a person actually has to work to get a paycheck. No free handouts for being whiney lazy or feeling you are entitled is what I am saying.

$20/hr works out to about $2500/mo. after taxes and the inflated costs means nobody is going to travel there for those minimal jobs. All the locals who grew up on the farm, learning to work and learning trades have moved up into the higher paying jobs. When the boom 'busts' they'll be filling those jobs again. Capitalism hard at work.

So, when do you start?

Probably next Monday being I am training in a new bus driver for a local school. She does her driving test then so I am hoping to be done after that.

Not that I mind of course. All I do is ride along and get paid $30 and hour to be the licenced person on the bus.

Many years after my dad had retired, my mom persuaded him to go back to work so he'd be out of the house. He got a technician's job at the company that I worked as a design engineer. (Yes, it was a little weird for me to give my dad assemblies to build.) My dad stunned management at the interview when they asked him if he'd be willing to work overtime. He said that they should expect no more than 40 hours of work from him every week but if they make a mistake due to an accident, incompetence or whatever then he'd help them to fix their problem. He insisted that this had to be written into a simple contract.

About a year and a half later they asked my dad to work a third week of 60 hours. He agreed that he would help to fix the problem. The next Monday's managers meeting my dad appeared, unannounced with the contract in hand. He started to explain how inefficiently the floor was managed when his manager showed up late to the meeting. It wasn't more than a month later that my dad assumed the vacant assembly manager position.

Heh, guess they weren't expecting him to fix THAT sort of problem when they agreed to that clause in the contract.

All in all, I'd say that clause helped the company greatly.

TCM--So what's the new job?

By the way, just for the sake of completeness to this discussion, a lot of the oil field jobs up here in Canada (read Alberta) are 10 and 12 hour shifts, two weeks in/two weeks out. With all sorts of variations on the same theme. It seems to me most of them work out to about 1800-2000 hours per year, same as 40 hour weeks. But with 84 hour weeks. So, for those who say it can't be done, I kinda beg to differ. Granted, the time off allows one to recuperate.

This kind of work schedule seems to have spawned a new paradigm for how people live, too. I have lots of neighbors in my area--southeastern BC--that live here and work in northern Alberta. I have heard of some who live in Arizona and work in the north, too. Lots of companies give their employees a tax-free travel allowance so this decentralization happens pretty naturally. So much for the old "company town" centered around a remote mine or oilfield. Its a little boggling just how mobile our people are these days.

Jon.

Its for a local company that primarily does horizontal boring and other precision excavating work for the local utility companies.

They have a reasonable reputation for quality work but at the moment have far more work available than they have workforce to cover it. I am hoping I can sell my extra skillsets there to do more than just be a grunt and put my engineering and mechanical skills to good use.

Thats what I am supposed to meet with the bigwigs there about this week. I got the strong impression about 10 minutes into the interview and walk around the yard that they are severely lacking in a service tech of my skillsets and experience.

Who knows all said and done I may not even take the job if what they expect does not suit me.

Same in offshore oil...often 28days on, 28 days off....thats why it pays well.

I bet it doesn't demand 24hrs of work on every one of those 28 days.

Pretty sure that OSHA would have something to say about capping daily work hours and stipulating minimum rest intervals in that environment.

But yeh, away jobs are good with rotations like that.

12hrs / day..eg 0630 to 1830..Actually, you get used to it, although the brain tends to become 'conditioned' to the environment and routine. Some people show 'zombie-like' tendencies in their thought patterns after a while (my perception only) because the work environment is so repetitive.

There would be breaks in that. You gotta eat.

Absolutely! Mealtimes are milestones in that environment. You get three squares a day and a couple of coffee breaks. The food is generally acceptable, if not downright good, although this may differ eg between fixed production installations and drilling rigs.

An army marches on its stomach

Stomach and bank account both taken care of.

"Some people show 'zombie-like' tendencies in their thought patterns after a while (my perception only) because the work environment is so repetitive."

My first thought on reading this was "Safety Nightmare!" My second thought was 'So that's how things went so bad at Deepwater Horizion."

As long as management considers the input from the accountants as 'better' than the input from the Engineers, disasters like this will continue to happen, simply because they put short-term profits above long-term safety and sustainability. It's sad/scary, companies with a hundred years of history or more, and unable to see beyond the next quarter's profit/loss statement.

I met with the bigwigs today. No go on the job. They would not back down on the 70+ hour work week schedules.

If they sign ne on with a 50 hour work limit they would have to do that with a few others and it would create more office politics than they car to deal with.

Oh well I guess I will just stick with the bus driving until schools out. Not that I am complaining.

Set up your own pump/vac system on a truck and pick off some of their waiting customers in your spare time!

Sure. Got $500K I can borrow and two people that want to work 70+ hour weeks running it for me?

It is their loss, not yours. If they are inflexible with this, imagine what some of the other things that they could have the same attitude about after you were hired! Sounds like you probably wouldn't last more than a few months until you became so frustrated with them that you would tell them to put their heads in the South end of a North bound Mule.

Consider yourself lucky.

Good Luck, Old Salt

If it's a commercially viable proposition then a bank may be interested in lending.....put your business proposal writing hat on.

How about four people working 35hr weeks on a rotating shift earning less and then you could make a margin on that, ie exploit them for profit..., and add machine rental to that, it might work out.

Alternatively, employ four guys/gals and body shop them out, at a good margin, to operate somebody else's 500k rig, which probably needs to work the hours stated to get the ROI that will pay their bank commitment.

There is an opportunity here. Basically, sub out the jobs you don't want to do personally and reap a profit on it.

Apologies...I should have commented when you stated they had agreed to meet with you. It is the modern corporate style that decisions are made in commitee/ meeting. In that way, blame cannot accrue to an individual.

They (the Bigwigs) know and understand that they cannot compromise their company's policies or tactical decisions, especially in favour of a prospective employee (might have been different if you were applying for CEO).

You actually invited the 'sympathetic' minion who first interviewed you, to haul out the big guns to shoot you down....think about it 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...lesson learned ??

Oh believe me I am quite used to the lies that get told during job interviews to get a guy to sign on. That was exactly why I wanted the meeting with the higher ups. If they can't put their promises in contract writing they are not the kind of people that I want to work for.

To be honest the work they wanted me for requires my class A CDL which by federal DOT law stipulates no more than 12 hour work days. When they said they do not run log books and will just pay the fines that their employees if they get caught not having log books I had already wrote them off.

"When they said they do not run log books and will just pay the fines that their employees if they get caught not having log books I had already wrote them off."

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but wouldn't that call for an anonymous tip to the appropriate agency that this company needs a 'surprise inspection' for log books? I'm certain that log books need to be kept on record for a certain length of time after they are filled in, otherwise everyone could get away with 'This is a brand new book, that's why there's only one entry in it.' A plethora of 'missing' log books, and no storage of completed books, should serve as ample evidence to start questioning the drivers about the company's 'real' log book policies.

This company is playing fast and loose with the law, which means they're playing fast and loose with highway safety. I would rather see that company fined into oblivion and shut down than end up crushed to death when one of their 'overworking' drivers smashes my car up against a guard rail and steamrollers my car into a manhole cover.

Yea 100% agreement with that as well.

'pick off some of their waiting customers'

I wasn't thinking that big...I was just thinking that 70hr weeks means there are contractors waiting and a small subcontractor/jobber with a small shop constructed rig and a working relationship with locals might be in business. I was in a similar situation in Alaska in 1969, I picked up a Unimog and mounted a backhoe. In business overnite.

Tempting and I do have the skills to replicate one of their machines if given a few months of time and $30 - 40K to work with.

The problem is I don't have the time and I am a year behind on this house project which has my wife crawling all over my butt as is about it and what I am doing with my life to benefit us.