Powered Caravan

Id go 24VDC

The fridge only has 12v option and in this option you cannot control the refrigerator, only at 220v. But thank you for your answer.

http://www.bigfrogmountain.com/12_Volt_Refrigerators.html

Fredski-

Excellent source of dual voltage refrigerators. They are extremely valuable with their automatic voltage switching for use by fire depts. One of the volunteer fire depts. I have been with installed one on their rescue engine to keep bottled water cool. It was powered by the "accessory battery" while the engine was operating and shore power while parked in the engine bays. This was done with a separate automatic switch. It would cool the water rapidly and maintain the cool temp automatically. It also had a low current draw and power consumption.

Cooled bottled water is necessary to replace the body fluids expelled as sweat from rapid exertion, the heat generated by being in the heavy turnout gear, extended work in hot weather, etc. It is probably one of the most frequent causes of firefighter incapacity during operations at incidents. I am currently working on getting some of the units for the vehicles my "home fire company" operates. I will look into your recommended source.

Good Luck, Old Salt

My main concern is, since the consumption of the fridge at 220v - 0,6amps will be the same plugged in on a inverter thru 12v batteries? Because if it will be not the same, if it will be more than 10amps hour, it will be almost impossible to run the fridge at 220v for 24h on a van only with a 40ah deep cycle battery, right?

Use the 12v. It is much more efficient than using the inverter to go to 220v. Also 220v is not something you should operate with in an automobile unless the car is specifically made to operate with that high a voltage. 220v kills real easy, 12v takes some special trying to get even a small shock from.

Some very simple, perhaps over simplified, math will answer some of your questions. A 40ah battery at 12v will theoretically supply 1 amp for 40 hours at 12 volts. This equates to 480 watt-hours of power available not considering inefficiencies. Using the 40ah battery at 12v at (220v*.6a= 12v@11a = 132 watt-hrs) 11a, the battery will last 40ah/11a = 3.64 hrs. For 220v operation it take the same power to operate refrig but you have a .83 efficiency in the inverter so that (220V @ .6a = 132 watt-hr) becomes 132v/.83 = 160 watts draw/hr. To get the cycle life of the battery it is 40ah@12v*.83 = 159 watts/hr. The battery is 480 watt-hrs and the usage with the inverter is 159 watts. 480w/159w-hrs = 3 hours.

This all means that for 12v usage the refrig with the 40ah battery will power it for 3.64 hours. At 220 volts @ .6a * .83 efficiency for the inverter the time is 3.0hrs.

To attain the 24hr operation of each the 12v refrig must draw no more than 1.6a and the 220v refrig no more than 0.14a

If no temp control at the lower voltage is a problem use a small generic 12v thermostat in the supply wiring. This will have to be small enough to fit inside the refrig.

Another way to extend the available time is to put a larger battery in the caravan to supply the refrig. Not considering weight, there are some very large ah batteries out there. Problem with them is the $$$$.

Another way to save refrig time and power is to put the beer on ice instead of the refrig. That is the preferred method world-wide.

Good Luck, Old Salt

mrehmus-

As I stated "Some very simple, perhaps over simplified, math will answer some of your questions". I did not go into extreme technical discussions since that seemed not to be what the OP wanted. It was simply to give some comparisons of use of various voltages and their requirements

Yes a battery can be drained to 0%. It's called a dead battery! Not of much use unless recharged but it is still a battery. Its life will have been shortened but it is still a battery.

Deep cycle batteries can be discharged to 0%. This is regularly done for electric trolling outboard motors. I use a deep cycle battery in one of my boats and it often gets down to a low level but always takes a charge and is back to like new. 85% is a very high number compared to actual use by many people, especially auto batteries and deep cycle.

Low Voltage refrigs are available with very good control. Google "truck refrigerators". I use one on another of my boats and it is 12v. I don't use propane to cook either, wood alcohol!

A very good source for information on batteries is http://www.batteryuniversity.com/

It is an extremely good source on battery technology. It is good to check it prior to using batteries or designing something with them except for extremely exotic development systems.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Well put.

use an aftermarket thermostatically controlled switch. You might even be able to re-purpose the one pre-installed.

I imagine it's fine and well, but didn't have two sets of terminals so they made an executive decision to give control to the side that is likely to be plugged in 24/7

in short..go with the 12V

there is a lot of technical information give so i shall no go that way ,what you are proposing is not practical for many reasons i have been all through what you want to do this is what i consider to be the best way,if on a powered site use the 220 volt when traveling use the 12 volt system,use the car battery to charge a battery on board the caravan, protect the car battery with a auto cut of if voltage gets to 12 volts, caravan battery to have a motion sensor switch that switches off when stationary for about 3 min when not traveling,when 220v is not available i use LPG,solar does not work because you always have to have orientation to get the max from the sun,good luck whatever way you chose

raymas-

Good Questions bring good answers.

All this information should have been in the original post. It would have probably produced more relevant and better answers

Good Luck, Old Salt

I liked your post.

--------------------------------

To the OP:-

I also have one of these 3 way fridges in my Caravan, they are great!!

The best way to use them to my mind is:-

12 volts when on the road with the car engine running, if you stop for more than say 30 minutes, switch to gas. I have experienced a flat battery.......

220 volts when on a mains camping site or at home, keeping the battery charged as well as the fridge cold.

Gas is there for the rest of the time while on holiday and in my experience a good modern fridge can run a long time on a single gas bottle, (never actually measured it as I use the same bottle for cooking where no mains is available), but check it every 12 hours or buy some aftermarket device that can take the indication (12 volt on mine) that the gas is not burning.

But if you have the radio/TV on, you may not hear or see this indicator...mine is not loud, just a clicking, maybe a newer fridge is better/louder...

This indication needs 12 volts and is just the gas igniter trying to light the "missing" gas supply. It should be easy to build some sort of interface to make the indication better.....but the fridge is already starting to warm up!!!!

I also do not see a practical or useful way to use electricity in the manner that the OP wants, especially not the 220 VAC version as several have already mentioned....he will need a huge 12 volt battery....at least!

I looked around the internet for some help on the subject of how much gas such a fridge may use, I found the following:-

In a typical day, it will consume around 400grams of gas. This means, running on your standard 9kg BBQ bottle that you may have at home your fridge will last for around 22 days.

This was taken from this website:-

how-long-will-my-fridge-go-on-gas

....and obviously will depend upon such things as Make/model of fridge, how many times the door gets opened, how cold the fridge is run and and and, but it should give a rough indication....

Possibly a good modern fridge may actually take less gas than this example - possibly.

400 grams is approximately 14 ounces....if you use such weights and measures...

That it is very nice I find to have cold drinks, hard butter and fresh milk!! As well as not having to throw stuff out that has "turned"!

I also use either 12 volts or 230 volts (whichever is available) to run a couple of low power fans to keep the fridge coil cooled in very hot weather, it allows the fridge to cool better, but uses of course more power. But I am usually either on the road or in a camping site, so who cares?

A solar version would theoretically be better, but as when we are on site or at home we have mains paid for, I tend to use that!!! Maybe I am not "green" enough for the environment!!!

There are some simple methods here detailed here:-

How-much-gas-is-left-in-the-gas-bottle

To allow anyone to have some forewarning as to when the cylinder will be empty.

Another method is to have a twin cylinder arrangement with auto switch over and warning....always in the middle of the night I find!!!!

To sum up, I feel that it is better to use gas when not on the road or connected to mains, its the simple and best method. Gas is cheap, especially in bigger cylinders.

Here for example, the filling of a 5kg cylinder costs almost the same as the 11kg and the 50kg!!!! Its the work involved, not the volume of gas!!!

If we assume that the fridge takes more than the example, say 1 pound per day, then in the USA for example using such cylinders as these:-

These are I believe 20, 30 and 40 pounds (Tare!), which should give the equivalent in days of running, that is 20, 30 and 40 days, or even a bit more......that is a long holiday!!!

What a refill costs where the OP is I have no idea......sorry.

I hope this helps.....

PS. If the 12 volt cooling has no thermostat, its quite easy to build or buy one for long term usage.....

The short answer is unless your making a caravan out of a route bus or coach you will not have enough roof space to put enough solar panels on to run your fridge. Most RV fridges rely on you operating them on LPG for extended periods. the 12V option is to keep it running whilst mobile and the 240Vac option is for when your home or at a caravan/trailer park.

The alternative is to run a generator, but you will find that annoying/expensive in the long run.

When it comes to RV camping, fun costs money, how hard do you want to laugh?

Liked your post.

I gave up the generator after one holiday as I was placed away from other caravans as it was not loud, simply annoying!!!!

These refrigerators don't work very well and they use a lot of power...If you are using a regular battery it will run it down in a couple of hours....and you won't be able to start the engine....They also don't cool that well, they are basically for maintaining something while you are running the engine or on alternate power....The best way is to cool what you want in the refrigerator at home, and then put it in the portable for the trip.....I tried this route and abandoned it for a good quality ice chest, they last longer and work better, are larger, dependable(don't break down), and you don't have to worry about your battery....been there done that....

http://www.icey-tek-coolers.com/

There are some ice chests that are cooled by a version of a Stirling engine. They are very efficient and will either act as a refrigerator or a freezer. They use, if I recall correctly, just 48 watts (4 amps). Not very big though.

Coleman® Stirling Power Cooler

• 26 Qt., holds up to 37 cans
• The most powerful, portable cooler/freezer in its class
• Keep items frozen in temperatures over 100°F outside
• Completely portable - light weight, quiet operation
• Runs on either 12v or 110v (adaptor included)
• Easy to use control panel with low battery indicator
• Adjustable with 5 temperature control settings (3 cool/2 freeze modes)
• Fast, efficient cooling times uses little battery power
• Environmentally friendly - no CFCs or harmful refrigerants
• Perfect for RV's, boating, camping, cabins, home, or office
• Outside Dimensions: 27.3" X 18.1" X 13.7" Inside Dimensions: 13.1" X 8.6" X 13.5"
• 1 year limited warranty

http://www.coleman.com/product/5726-750#.U4An6namU1A for more info.

About $350 at a discount store. You could buy a few of these for the price of a RV refrigerator.

Now how efficient they are in comparison to a proper home unit I have no idea, but who really cares? How long is a holiday?

It is wrong to generalize I feel......its a mixed market with good and bad.....

In my last post I found out that an average 3 way camping fridge uses less than 1 pound of gas per day......surely that is acceptable for fun holiday time?

The ones I have used cooled really well, +5°C was normal (there are freezer versions nowadays too!).....

Some I have used, without a thermostat (many years ago) would freeze up if the outside temperature went below +25°C!!! But would still produce ice when the ice holder was placed on the coil for the odd Gin & Tonic, even when it was 36°C.

I am sure that there are some cheap fridges around that are not worth having, just like you said. Read the tests for better knowledge!

I can only say that all my experience while camping was with quality Elektrolux ones. Never ever had one go wrong either, only problem is that small plastic parts wear sometimes and are expensive to buy/replace, but are always available when needed.....

My fridge costs about $2000 (€1600) as a replacement today.......some cost more!!! That is Quality. Sadly!!

Have a great day....

$2k will buy a lot of ice.....

...this is like $2000 worth....

Expensive, when you think that in a few days it will be cheap water.....

Used one at a time, they would last a week in an ice chest....that's a lot of vacation time....

If you say so, but I personally prefer something that I can control better......and is smaller....

All of the inverters I've purchased since '00 have a low voltage shutdown feature- at somewhere around 11vdc they turn off and sound an alarm. If you're going to run 24 hrs. on batteries alone, you'll need roughly 10. My '87 EMC has 3, 1 for engine starting, 2 for motorhome, if plugged in, runs on line, if stopped, engine off, propane, and if running down the highway, 12vdc. A 100w solar panel keeps the batteries charged if left setting in the drive for a couple of months. That is how most are set up, and I would say that is the most efficient. Just make sure you don't run out of propane!

Well put and informative.

Thank you so much for your messages! I've read them all and they were really usefull! I see now that running my campingaz ctl 175 3 way fridge is almost impossible at 220v in my caravan, i would need a huge 12v battery system with huge panel solar support, which is not duable for me. Running on 12v on the way it is possible, of course. So the only possibility here is to run on gas. I've bought a bottle of gas and already started to run on gas but i have to tell you, it smells awfull inside of the van and i started to be really already about CO emssion. I didnt slept well toonight, i was allways concerned about some gas or CO inside of the van. I turned it off everything but still worried. So, I've decided to abondoned this system and I'm going to buy this trucks refrigerators. I think they are the best solution. They are very efficient in evrything and very duable to run on 12v battery system with 50w solar panel. I want to feel relax when i'm camping, that's the purpose of camping. Thank you so much for all your help and support! Very, very usefull!!

You need to ensure that the fridge is well ventillated when running on LPG. Most installations have the back of the fridge exposed to the outside whilst the rest of the fridge is inside the caravan/RV and sealed to prevent gases (burnt and unburnt) from permeating into the living space.

I add fans to pull away the warm air (in a hot climate it can make a trailer unbearable) and any possible gas leaks!! and push it outside, as well as improving the efficiency of the fridge. The oven heat is also drawn outside too.....

Sealed fans, one mains, one brush-less 12 volt....as I camp/stopover for lunch where no power is sometimes....which is why I need gas for cooking as the induction hobs need mains power, a lot of!!!

My oven and grill are gas only....I like my Jacket potatoes too!!!

NO MICROWAVE!!!

Thanks for the tip! It's a possibility to make a better chimney. The thing is, it's a portable fridge, it was not made to extract the gas or smoke to the outside. Or is there a way to do it an i dont know?

I'm not sure what you mean by portable? RV fridges are made to vent outside. Is yours an apartment/household unit? I remember our Servel fridge back in the '50's, it had a candle sized flame and there was no provision to vent externally, if you are using one of these in a small van you may have oxygen shortage, you may also have a leak in the supply line as someone else mentioned. Mercaptan is added to fuel gasses so you can smell them, unburnt it stinks like death and attracts flies.

Thanks for the name of the stinky stuff!!

I also found this on Wiki:-

Methanethiol /ˈmɛθeɪnˈθaɪɒl/ (also known as methyl mercaptan) is an organic compound with the chemical formula CH
3SH (also written as CH

4S). It is a colorless gas with a distinctive putrid smell. It is a natural substance found in the blood and brain of humans and other animals as well as plant tissues. It is disposed of through animal feces. It occurs naturally in certain foods, such as some nuts and cheese. It is also one of the main chemicals responsible for bad breath and the smell of flatus. The chemical formula for methanethiol is CH₃SH; it is classified as a thiol. It is sometimes abbreviated as MeSH. It is very flammable.

Now I know why my farts stink!!!!

No Andy that'll be the sauerkraut you had for lunch.

BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT! BUT!

HOW DID YOU KNOW?????

Talking seriously, Handkäse is worse!!! Especially when served with Music!!!

See here for some various pictures:-

Handkäse with "Music"......

The music is some strong Onions.......

Very low in calories....

Served after around 24 hours in an "Oil & Vinegar" mix. DELICIOUS!!!

But the next day..........PUUUUUUUHHHHH!! STAY AWAY FROM ME/YOU!!

The name translates to "Hand cheese".

But really, It should be "Feet Cheese", because they have found that the bacteria in the cheese is the same as that on smelly feet, then the smell is no surprise!!!!

No kidding!!

As many a college student has found, chemistry or chemical engineering degree not required, incineration of the human produced methane is very effective and does not produce any odor of the off gases. Since CH4 produces carbon dioxide and water there also is not atmospheric pollution.

The most difficult part of the methane incineration is getting the courage to reproduce this reaction that is normally done with flare towers. The source of the methane lies down on his back with the lower extremities in the raises position. The wider the angle of the gluteus maximus makes it safer for the incineration. For beginners it is suggested that a cloth barrier be used such as those manufactured by Fruit of the Loom, Jockey, Hanes, or any other reputable supplier. The sturdier the fabric the safer the process. As the methane producing generator feels the immanent expelling of self generated methane he holds a lit match or cigarette lighter (Bic is fine) in the near vicinity of the expelling end of the piping. As the methane is expelled and mixes with atmospheric oxygen combustion is accomplished. Only those of a high degree of pain tolerance should attempt this without the cloth barrier. That method tends to create excessive heat adjacent to the discharge end of the piping. Since no mercaptan is added to the source there is no odor of it acting as a warning of leaks. Small quantities of Hydrogen Sulfide are mixed in the manufacturing process so if the ignition of the methane is not accomplished a warning odor of hydrogen sulfide becomes apparent.

Replication of this process is not recommended for those weak of heart. Consumption of at least 6 cans of beer and eating chili dogs with onions expedites the successful completion of this method of incineration of Methane.

The patent for this process is over 17 years so there are no patent rights to the process.

Good Luck, Old Salt

When I was in Marine boot camp this was demonstrated to be hazardous-a young man was stripping in the locker room and somebody shouted Geez Mike, light a match, so to humor him, as he stepped towards the showers with a towel over his shoulder he lifted his leg, flicked his Bic, and the flare went up his back where the towel wasn't. I'm still not sure which smells worse, burnt hair or mercaptan.

A perforated metal screen or metal gauze is better as a "shield". Even a metal flour sieve will save someone's a**e!!!!

Please run it through the Dishwasher before returning to the cupboard......

Just ask Sir Humphrey Davy who designed one of the first safety mining lamps and refused to patent it, so that the design could be copied by anyone.

Thought the original iron gauze rusted badly, the principal was found as it removes the heat of the "explosion" better!!!

No more "Butt-burn"!!

After conferring with several people who rate themselves as sources and incinerators of natural, the summary was that perforated metal screen or metal gauze would not be suitable as a flame arrestor. Their concerns were the sharp edges of the metal screen doing damage to the immediate area around the flare piping since it could be very painful if contact was made with the edges of the metal screen. The metal gauze would also not be suitable because some of it could accidentally be forced into the end of the flare piping. The inclusion of the gauze and the soft area surrounding the piping could be extremely painful.

After polling these extremely skilled persons it became apparent that they would prefer a cloth of low combustibility and a slow burn rate for thermal protection. I suggested "Kevlar" cloth, very flexible and fire resistant, and they were enthusiastic about that material. For their testing purposes I lent them one of my old Kevlar "job" pants. They were thrilled with its performance! Not only does it resist flames but also can be purchased, not just in "bolts" of cloth, in sized clothing. A test of this material was arranged and it worked perfectly. On a scale of 1 to 10, our testers rated it as a 9.1! They stated that if it had a remote lighter they would have given it a 9.8!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Your "skilled" friends need to get themselves better informed about both the work of Sir H.Davey and to look at the lamps themselves.....

Furthermore, anyone stupid enough to place sharp edges against their Skin (on any part of their Body!), cannot be prevented from injury by a comment from anyone here on CR4.

I am a great believer in safety, especially here on CR4, but with regard to areas that the average Person may have Little or no experience. Not with regard to "sharp edges" causing possible injury!!! Unless the poster tells us he/she is under 10 years old (or mentally so!).....

The Beauty of metal mesh (once the sharp edges are suitably made safe for the babies) is the fact that the metal absorbs the heat of the "Explosion" and is MOST unlikely to catch fire....whereas some materials could and few People have for example Kevlar within easy reach when they are tanked up on beer and/or Tequila......or BOTH!!

The usage of a metal flour sieve for example, has both a "finished" edge, not sharp (at least on the ones I have seen over the years) as well as a fine mesh to increase the safety aspect with regard to flame Penetration.

I remember in Chemistry at school, such a Demonstration with a fine mesh and a bunsen burner to check that flame Penetration does not happen. In fact a flour sieve mesh is even finer than the mesh pads we used in the School!!

I found another good Website for anyone needing to learm more about this effect here (sorry that the link is so Long, CR4 did not allow me to shorten it for some reason!):-

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minerslamps.net%2Fhomepage%2Fimages%2FDavyExp.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minerslamps.net%2Fhomepage%2Fsafetylamphistory.htm&h=260&w=249&tbnid=g3VQ_59Y7U-gnM%3A&zoom=1&docid=9cIEqi8EKN33sM&ei=8m-EU_W8L6aj4gS6lYHwBA&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1396&page=2&start=22&ndsp=30&ved=0CKkBEK0DMBo

Where you can read this VERY pertinent paragraph:-

Davy's further experiments found that mesh-holes of fine metallic gauze acted the same way as narrow tubes. The adjacent drawing depicts Davy's principle utilizing a Bunsen-burner. The flame will burn on one side of the gauze without igniting the gas on the under side of the gauze. This is because the gauze will dissipate heat fast enough that the temperature of the gas beneath is unable to rise to the point of ignition.

I have underlined the important sentence for you. This effect has been known now for very many years, and is used in many different ways......

Do you require any further Infos from me to prove that a metal mesh is far safer than any normal Cloth or material? I have a lot more, but don't want to risk boring you if you now are fully aware of the effects....

I didn't realize that aside from humor, flatulence around the world must be a real problem that marketers have realized and created solutions for...I did a search 'clothing for flatulence'.

There are on sale since last year in London, underpants that filter a smelly fart. They were recently demonstrated "live" on Chan 5 UK, on the gadgets show.

I could not find it on youtube, but the same pants are now sold in the USA, see here:-

Fart Filter Pants!!!

Whether or not the gas still burns was NOT demonstrated!!!

ANDY, ANDY, ANDY, WHAT CAN I SAY? Yes, you have convinced me and probably others that you are more knowledgeable than us mere mortals. I make a statement based on facts and through discussing a subject with persons who have performed the subject experiment and we are all stupid.

As for a metal screen I am in agreement with the experimenters that they would not want anything with its potential to do bodily harm anywhere near such a sensitive area. They all agree, and several conducted the experiment, that the Kevlar cloth is far superior to anything they have used for this purpose. Are you familiar with Kevlar cloth used in clothing? If not I will forward you a picture of it on a first responder, me, with complete detail of its benefits and properties. I, as are many others, convinced that it has saved lives with its high temperature of flammability and flexibility. Perhaps the firefighters at your local fire house wear them and would show and demonstrate them and their properties. I'm sure you would find it enlightening. If they do not want to do this for you let me know, I will contact them and make suitable arrangements.

I am extremely familiar with the of Sir H. Davey and his lamp. You see I owned a twin engine gasoline powered speedboat which is required to have screen flame arrestors on the carburetors. Having seen another boat at my marina go up in flames due to one of them being off, I researched the matter extensively. That is why I switched to a boat with diesel engines. I am also extremely familiar with the lamp you cited in your internet post. Being the grandson of a coal miner, underground not strip, I absorbed with great interest everything he had to say about the mines including the lamps. Have you been presented with equal or superior training and knowledge? You see some of us have researched the subject extensively and know what we are talking about. That's why we are not "Furthermore, anyone stupid enough to place sharp edges against their Skin (on any part of their Body!), cannot be prevented from injury by a comment from anyone here on CR4. We and the skilled persons are too smart to do anything that stupid as you suggested and detailed. The experimenters are not stupid because they now use Kevlar cloth and never used the screens you suggested to use. They are very safety conscience and mature and not the average person. Not with regard to "sharp edges" causing possible injury!!! Unless the poster tells us he/she is under 10 years old (or mentally so!)..... They are not idiots as you have implied.

As you are so fond of citing pieces from the internet I would like to offer the following: http://inhabitat.com/toto-toilet-company-unveils-toilet-bike-neo-a-poo-powered-motorcycle/

Yes this is real! Japanese toilet company TOTO just unveiled the ultimate green motorcycle - and it doesn't run on gasoline or an electric motor. Instead, TOTO's "Toilet Bike Neo" runs on biogas that is produced from livestock waste. TOTO-which is not technically a motorcycle producer-created the poo-powered motorcycle topped with a toilet to promote TOTO's environmental efforts.

The Toilet Bike Neo is a three-wheeled motorcycle with a 250cc engine. Even though its seat is constructed out of a toilet, TOTO is quick to point out that the motorcycle does not run on human waste. The poop-powered motorcycle can travel up to 180 miles on a tank of animal waste. Last year, TOTO took the bike on a 876-mile journey across Japan.

Kevin Fujita, a TOTO spokesman stated, "We hope to raise awareness among customers about our green campaign through development of environmentally-friendly products such as water-saving shower heads and water-saving toilets."

There are currently no plans to produce the Toilet Bike Neo for the commercial market.

We have no interest in the use of metal mesh, too dangerous. They are using a specialized cloth, Kevlar, with its high temperature propertied. You are not boring me. It is interesting to me how a subject utilizing cloth can be so screwed up when other materials are introduced. I require no more information. For this application the "skilled" people have the right stuff and not normal cloth or materials. I am fully aware of boredom having read some of the posts on this subject.

By the way, there is no need for you to reply to this answer. I do not have the time or inclination to be distracted with the discussion of less favorable materials for this type of experimentation. Thank you for the information. Maybe next time we are tuning up a gasoline inboard boat motor we will consider using your suggestion.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Sorry, old salt, nothing you say rings true, in fact the opposite. Therefore to still my unpleasants thoughts as to the veracity of your statements, would you be so kind as to post some solid weblinks supporting your (and your clever friend's) theories please?

Obviously you did not bother to read fully the link supporting the extra benefits of a metal mesh, as discovered by Sir H.Davey....or you would have simply not bothered to reply.

I also found several other website entries basically also saying the same, which I can post for you at your request......just say the word.

It appears that you simply put yourself in the firing line with your badly thought out additions to some blogs here. Any half good high school student must be laughing his clogs off at your lack of knowledge, again and again.....as also mentioned privately by several CR4 members in private emails to me......

With regard to methane powering an engine or similar, we now do this a lot in Germany where over the last 10 years or so, animal manure is collected in special silos and the gas is collected, filtered and sold.....quit a big business....

Here is a .pdf in English from 1998 that you might like to learn further from....though much of this sort of information is not available in English......and more up to date as well....

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/25145.pdf

In the UK, BioGas is used to fuel vehicles, simply normal business, why is powering a motor cycle such big news? See here:-

http://www.eltis.org/index.php?id=13&study_id=2872

This is a fairly well understood Methane collection nowadays, probably not done on two wheels before......but adding in some of your recent completely unsupported posts would really boost methane production dramatically to my mind!!

The bike might achieve 10,000 miles per tank filling!!! Who knows?

Think about it!!

Have a great day with your further Methane production!! But do remember:-

"LAUGH, AND THE WORLD LAUGHS WITH YOU, WEEP, AND YOU WEEP ALONE."

by Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Andy-

Sorry but researches of the internet indicate that your latest reply is bovine scatology (Norman Schwarzkopf, General US Army) Please refrain from making such outright derogatory and untrue statements about others. They are also tangential to the original submission and of no value or relevancy to it. Internet citations are not proof positive. On May 27, 2014, it was revealed that 80% of wiki statements were incorrect, in error, unsubstantiated and downright lies, Yes 80%!

The cited site for your reference to Davey was full of visual garbage and unreadable. As for the citation and your comments or an 85 year old ex-underground coal miner's information about lamps, I will take the old tobacco chewing, whiskey drinking and swearing geezer.

Andy--- If you would like it I will genuflect in acknowledgement of your stated superiority in intelligence and experience above all others. It's done! Now will you leave me alone with your distorted, irrelevant answers to my slightly humorous answer about the ignition of flatulence and the safety precautions of Kevlar pants to prevent an overheated butt? Anyone who would recommend using any metal in any form, unless in the hands of a MD with specialization in the appropriate medical discipline, around that area of the body I don't want to be bothered by.

Good Luck, Old Salt

As is typical for you, a lot of "waffle" and again no weblinks or similar to support said "waffle".

So I take it that it was all "made up" by you and your so called "unclever friends"!!

You have simply not made or attempted to prove me in any way wrong (probably because I am right and you know it, is my/our conclusion!!), you just appear to be upset! At being caught out?

Again and again and again and again and again and again and again!!!! Don't you EVER get tired at being caught out!!!!

The last link I posted WAS NOT FROM WIKI as you appear to believe, the weblink was even there for you to look at!!! DID YOU MISS THAT?

Your reading/cognitive skills are seemingly in question.....

You might consider these further links below as I found them using your exact comment "80% of wiki statements were incorrect" on Google.

You should have read more about it before posting, as it actually proves to be the opposite of what you wanted say/prove.....again your reading skills are brought into question....

The first link fits you to a "T"....the second one refutes the 80% comments completely.

Sadly (4 U!), I could not find a weblink on Google proving you right for once, not one!! I EVEN LOOKED!!!

Overconfidence_effect

Reliability_of_Wikipedia

So again you are completely wrong!!!!

Please, please, please, please post a link (other than your own statement on CR4!!) that supports the 80% error rate in Wiki?

Even if you were right and 80% of wiki was incorrect, the 20% that WAS right would still be 20% MORE right than you are in most of your postings/rants here on CR4!!!!

As I said, I was unable to find one example on the web where a source, reliable or not, ever said 80% of Wiki was wrong, but it's perfectly possible that a journalist somewhere, sometime made the comment, maybe trying to bolster his image (now where have I seen that recently??), but it was not found by Google.....that does not prove you wrong, it just makes it very, very unlikely….

Furthermore I thought you would have a good laugh at my little joke about 10,000 miles on one motorbike tank filling of your sort of comment.

I am now thinking that I underestimated the "power" of your comments!! I think that they could turn that "Poo Powered Motorbike" you yourself first mentioned, into the very first "Perpetual Motion" machine/motorbike ever!!!

And they said it couldn't be done!!! To think that I was wrong on that score, that really bites my back end!!

Luckily my Motorbike joke/comment seems to have appealed to many others here you will be glad to know!!

Do have a great day......I am sure that some more of our colleagues will have a laugh at this further small offering, naturally, as ever WITH WEBLINKS!!

PS. I almost forgot, a Google search of the internet also failed to produce a single supporting web site for your recent comments with regard to cloth and burning gas, by the way!!!!

!!!!!PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!!! Put a good link or two showing US ALL how right you are.

On the law of averages alone, ONE DAY YOU WILL BE RIGHT!!!

What do you people in the USA say? PUT UP OR SHUT UP? Did I say it right?

Andy Germany=

Perhaps you would like to retract your inaccurate depiction of me since you don't know me except for your ridiculous comments and tangential postings which stray consistently from the subject at hand. To quote the general again, all you have stated is a consistant Bovine Scatology. Deviation from the subject is your only consistency besides attacking others when your input does not expound glorification of what you perceive to be your superior knowledge and ability to depend upon an often incorrect sources. Oh, also you have a thing about citing the internet. Many others don't need to depend up on this method. They generate it with their own intelligence.

In regards to you and your buddy, you are both fools with your money. Apparently and not surprisingly your searching skills of the internet are much poorer than you often glorify them to be . Not surprisingly you stated you could find not find any sites for the subject of cloth and burning gas "PS. I almost forgot, a Google search of the internet also failed to produce a single supporting web site for your recent comments with regard to cloth and burning gas, by the way!!!!"

After you review of the following citations perhaps you would like further, or remedial training on the use of search machines. They were obtained from Google with the two phrases "igniting flatulence" and "burning farts". If training continues to be needed I offer my services for "Internet searches" and "The art of staying within the scope of sources. I will also provide you with that critically needed "Consistent non-tangential deviations from the subject and material at hand.

I hope you find the following sites proof positive that cloth is far superior to Davey's experimentation. I found the YouTube citations very interesting, informative and perhaps a little humorous. Despite the $500 wager, you must realize that not once do you the see use of wire gauze or wire mesh used for prevent flame impingement.

Burning Farts Vol.1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFvgljnXpww

Burning Farts vol. 2 - Fart of the tiger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7y_sLVZWQg

Zack farts on a candle, Successfully!! REAL FLAME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRqiXYB5wQA

Lighting farts - BIGGEST EVER - Real Fart Light

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WotaR41Pc5s&list=PL_TkSGMHUCuFTtcFBpg2fqUnNGjdQ5E4z

Guy Lights His Fart And It Lights A Candle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzpiJjSkAy8&index=6&list=PL_TkSGMHUCuFTtcFBpg2fqUnNGjdQ5E4z

Lighting a fart GONE WRONG!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3sExcymEYA&list=PL_TkSGMHUCuFTtcFBpg2fqUnNGjdQ5E4z&index=8

Man's Fart Ignite Fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgcYoC63jOU

The 10 Greatest Farts In Live TV History

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ti9NgDqYxo

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUFvgljnXpww&ei=iBaHU5P2CqeqsASr8YDgDw&usg=AFQjCNFYQCSM8YYGHuAFr4jTZ4jOxo8a-A&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cWc

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGUQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grime.net%2Fmmm%2Farchive%2F2005%2F20051205.htm&ei=vxaHU4i_MaHNsQT004DYDg&usg=AFQjCNELqft4-oUAd6uVhQ6_LqxCKwvv-g&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cW

chttp://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CF8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fart-sounds.net%2Ffacts_on_farts.htm&ei=vxaHU4i_MaHNsQT004DYDg&usg=AFQjCNFUbFIEAxzZdXtHXFpAop57xsy2Ig&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cWc

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGUQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grime.net%2Fmmm%2Farchive%2F2005%2F20051205.htm&ei=vxaHU4i_MaHNsQT004DYDg&usg=AFQjCNELqft4-oUAd6uVhQ6_LqxCKwvv-g&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cWc

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CHsQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yogawiz.com%2Fblog%2Fhome-remedies%2Fsmelly-flatulence-causes-get-rid-excessive-gas.html&ei=2haHU_rXL8nisATh4IC4BA&usg=AFQjCNEm0aeRudiSS2ibNz2SBsYlKHrE5g&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cWc

YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Firstly, many many thanks for posting AT LAST some weblinks after several requests. Not forgetting all the other requests for the same in other blogs that you have simply ignored.....

This is what I would call "A WIND OF CHANGE FOR YOU OLD SALT!!"

Lets hope it is for the common good of our beloved CR$.

The fact that the links did not support your ideas in any way shape or form is another matter I will get to shortly!!

But I have seldom been so amused at somebody's hobby as yours appears to be!!

Sadly two of THE videos are not allowed to be "aired" in Germany because of Digital music rights (not farts)!!

I looked at all of the others, though. Ignoring your rants in between of course!!

Perhaps you should have looked at the videos a bit more closely...in three of the videos, there is obvious "over heating" (one severe!) of the rear ends of some people due to the fact that cloth (especially THIN cloth) can warm up VERY rapidly, even catch fire as shown in one of your examples, when close to heat......downright dangerous.....

So it does not appear to me (using YOUR OWN SELECTED VIDEOS, not mine yet), to be anything to recommend to anyone in the way you have been telling us, to use cloth as a safety barrier, especially male underpants, as there is still a risk of burns, when lighting ones farts.....

In fact, it showed mostly, exactly what I was telling you from day 1 !!!! ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA IF YOU VALUE YOUR HIDE!!!

BUT, I think I understood where you are now going with this and your video examples, (Old Salt, its HILARIOUS AGAIN, THANKS), YOU HAVE SIMPLY BASED YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT THAT CLOTH IS A SAFE BARRIER BETWEEN A PERSON AND A FLAMING FART on some YouTube videos!!!!

And not even the right ones - if there are any "right" ones....

Your "clever" friends have not helped you in ANY way that I can see or imagine. In fact, they may have even completely mislead you. Maybe they are not the "good or clever" friends that you might think!!!

It is true, there are special cloths, made in multilayers (I believe), for racing drivers and firemen for example, that can provide some really good insulation against heat, even external flames, BUT they would NEVER EVER allow a fart, or even air or any other gas through!!!!

That was the reason I mentioned metal gauze/mesh and Sir Humphrey Davy....which got you on the warpath again!!!!!!! Not unexpectedly!!

Now here is a link for you!! I am sure you will appreciate the time and trouble I have taken to show you the error of your thoughts AND IT ISN'T EVEN FROM WIKI!!! (which should make you VERY happy). SIMPLY FEAST YOUR EYES:-

how-to-turn-flowing-gas-into-a-lamp-without-blowing-yourself-up, or setting fire to your underpants either!!/

Q.E.D.

Many, many thanks for placing yourself bang in the firing line once again and again and again!!

Have a great day anyway.......you should learn to laugh at your own mistakes, its healthier too...

PS. One colleague of ours/mine emailed that as a young man he actually did it without ANY protection to get rid of "Ring-hairs" (his words, not mine!) in a spectacular manner. He did not state his age at the time....nor his mental age either....nor did he mention if a) it hurt or b) did he "repeat himself?"

Not for me, I will just put up with them.....

Also I cannot recommend this way to anyone further!!! Too dangerous/risky....

What have we sunk down to here? Lighting farts and arguing about what the best stuff is to stop someone getting a burnt rear end!!!!

REALLY FUNNY and thanks again for your most hilarious input. As ever.....I will now always remember you now. as the Old Fart!!

But please don't stop replying.....a laugh a day keeps the doctor away, as I am sure that you already know!! I NEED YOUR VALUED INPUT!!!!

Till later!!!

PPS. I can keep going for months at this rate!!! Can you too?

Andy Germany-

When in high school my favorite trigonometric function to work with was the sine. Yours appears to have been the tangent, touching lightly and going off and away from the subject (please no argument about trig.) First I do not rely on internet web links, I prefer knowledge. Knowledge doesn't have to be booted-up, plugged in; liquids neither kept away from nor have the keyboard cleaned.

No, not a wind of change, same Old Salt as before. If your opinion is that the fact that the links did not support your ideas in any way shape or form is another matter I will get too shortly!! I seriously suggest that you take some remedial reinstruction on observation and retention of educational materials. They show people igniting flatulence with clothes on, not wire mesh. That was the original subject of my first post and then the use of Kevlar fabric to provide additional protection, no metal or anything else. How you got that in is beside me.

You presume this subject is my hobby. No, I haven't ignited any since my junior year of college, a way long time ago! No rants, simply trying to redirect someone back to the original subject and refuting unsubstantiated rants meant (or at least clearly doing so) to present a derogatory and obnoxious about someone the author knows nothing about. Dangerous is a relative thing. The danger of someone untrained in sky diving is extremely dangerous, almost suicide, but to the trained person with over several thousand jumps the odds of dangerous are extremely low. That person is in more danger driving to the airport than hanging under a parachute. Therefore to you it is dangerous, to my clever friends with Kevlar it is not dangerous. Perhaps to you the use of a cutting torch is extremely dangerous, in my experienced hands it is almost like a brush in an artist's hands.

The clever friends have been helped, by me. I'm the one who told, not demonstrated, them how to better ignite the gases. Regressing to my very younger years I guess. They have proven to me and many others that this instruction has not mislead anyone. No, they do not sign any release but they all love it!

The original and my subject has been the use of Kevlar fabric not the Kevlar turnouts of bullet proof vests. It breaths and I can testify to that since I have several pairs of them. No way is metal gauze associated with that. What irritated my was your persistent deviation (tangent) from the main subject with other things and then damning others for their noncompliance with what you state as being superior to their writings. My mother used to say and I concur that "You can catch more flies with sugar than you can with vinegar".

Andy, I can assure you that I laugh at my own mistakes, but I laugh even harder at other's mistakes when they are wrong and hypothesize that they are superior to mere mortal people. Besides, how can you ever think I am not a person who knows how to laugh? Your colleague is the stupid one for not using proper PPE, underpants!

One thing you have clearly stated is I am an old fart and used to be a young stinker. I am proud of having lasted as long as I have. All I have to do to appreciate this is to look in the obituaries.

Yes, I can keep on going for months and enjoy it if incorrect and nasty things do not hinder my efforts. These include not be subject to others who continue initiating disrespectful, undeserved and unsubstantiated derogatory statements about others. Can you also? If yes, fine let's keep up an amiable path of communication. If not, bye and don't bother me anymore. My reason to participate in CR4 is to share information and questions with others interested in the same subjects, not to make others pissed off.

Good Luck, Old Salt

You could at least try and a) control your obvious aggravation b) make your posts funnier. Don't forget, my replies to you are not only full of relevant links ( see this last missive from you was completely empty of such informative things - completely normal!), but are FUNNY too!!

Your stuff is just untrue, irrelevant or stupid rubbish!!

You take yourself FAR more seriously than anyone else here does.... just find you funny, not ha ha by the way.....

Also, you forgot to mention the gas and the flour sieve link I posted by the way.....as you always forget to mention anything that shows you dancing at the wrong wedding!! AGAIN!!

Your comment:-

"My reason to participate in CR4 is to share information and questions with others interested in the same subjects, not to make others pissed off."

Shows that you need to turn round 180° and aim properly......you could not be more off the target......

My aim is to piss off people with an over inflated, incorrect opinion of themselves!!

Seems to be an easy job, with at least one person here (no prizes for guessing who!!) showing well and often, rising to every cast.......

Every post you write, it seems I can make fun of without effort.....haven't you noticed.....nobody else here has shown the need!

Before you say anything, I have let your last post mostly go.....it was simply boring.

How did we get here from fridges, I've forgotten and too lazy to look back.....

Goodnight Germany!

I am not surprised with what you have replied although I was hopeful that it would be better than it is. I, and some others, don't care what you say either from a technical view point or from a discussion direction.

What you have stated is certainly derogatory and not appreciated. I have seen you do that to other contributors you disagree with and we don't appreciate your immature philosophy towards others. Oh, by the way are you also a Forensic Psychologist or tarot reader? Again I genuflect to you. Adios and good bye.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Please change the record, sorry CD!!

You are at least as "derogatory", I feel possibly more!!! You get offended at simple "jests", you are no fun in real life I would imagine......

For example, in your recent post, should I have read something friendly in:-

"Oh, by the way are you also a Forensic Psychologist or tarot reader?"

?????

Practise what you preach!!!

Otherwise nothing here worth replying to Rainman....byeeeee

I have been asked by another CR4 member via email, asking if I am willing to take on a $500 bet with him as to whether you can/will post proper links supporting your theories within the next few weeks, or not!

US Dollars by the way......though I don't know exactly where he actually lives.

He wants to bet you cannot post good acceptable weblinks supporting your theories, and that I should take up the opposite view, that you can......but I think not for me, the risk of losing is too high I feel.......

In your eyes, should I take the bet? Would I win? Would you actually be able to post a link supporting your ideas 100%?

I myself, was completely unable to find such supporting infos anywhere using Google.

But as ever, I am ALWAYS fully prepared to be wrong (any-every one should prepare for the worst!) and metaphorically to eat my hat!!

Methinks it is in reality, quite safe!!!

Please refer to #54. Not only do they show the long known feasibility of lighting flatulence but they are well substantiated with the citations you persistently depend upon. These are not my ideas, they are historically known facts, not just supported, facts. Many years ago when I was obtaining a degree I was first introduced to this "experiment". Following that I discussed the phenomenon with my father who informed me that what was being done was even an old thing when he was in school. Now that's a lot of years that this has been going on. Have you led a sheltered life or has it been unsupportable through citations from Google? Here in the good old U S of A the majority of male college student and a few females have conducted this experiment as indicated by the citations. I find it impossible that I could do two simple searches and obtain thousands of sites, although not all applicable, while you, the one who overshadows us mere mortals could not find any on the internet. I guess I had better fix my computer. If such a thing as that could happen it must be picking up stray propagation from Indiana Jones or some other spurious source of nastiness.

Although you are far superior to me in all ways you may find some of the cited sites even a little humorous. The Chinese proverb says "a picture is worth a thousand words but a video is worth 10,000" so here comes an encyclopedia of words. Next time try to predict the winner of the Triple Crown, you might come out with better odds. Also please tell that other CR4 member that if he wants to throw his money away I don't accept checks. Approved credit cards, cash, PayPal and even American Express are accepted.

Thank you for the future complements on my search capabilities, although I prefer knowledge capabilities. Better luck next time!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Thank you for the luck, but as you can read from my just previous post a few minutes ago, I really don't need it...... just look at the link I just posted, it may be enough for you....

Hoist by your own Petard!!

Have a great day anyway....and keep up the posts, the fun and the laughter!!!

I LOVE IT!!!

I have been asked by another CR4 member via email, asking if I am willing to take on a $500 bet with him as to whether you can/will post proper links supporting your theories within the next few weeks, or not!

US Dollars by the way......though I don't know exactly where he actually lives.

He wants to bet you cannot post good acceptable weblinks supporting your theories, and that I should take up the opposite view, that you can......but I think not for me, the risk of losing is too high I feel.......

In your eyes, should I take the bet? Would I win? Would you actually be able to post a link supporting your ideas 100%?

I myself, was completely unable to find such supporting infos anywhere using Google.

But as ever, I am ALWAYS fully prepared to be wrong (any-every one should prepare for the worst!) and metaphorically to eat my hat!!

Methinks it is in reality, quite safe!!!

yes it is an apartment/household unit. The model is: Campingaz Groenland CTL 175 About the smell it´s not the smell of unburned gas but the small of the gas already burned from the fridge. Maybe it will pass over time... i´ve bought it to a family that use it only once in 15 years. :) if it would be possible to build a small chimney to the outside it would be great... but i´m always very careful about gas stuff. About the gas leak in the supply line i´ve checked and everything is ok

It sounds like you had a gas leak. Generally speaking, a bad smell is added so that leaks can be quickly found......as many gases have no smell when pure = Dangerous.....

A CO, CO2, Propane/methane detector is a good idea.......but even a sensitive nose is useful....

When I replaced the copper gas piping in my British built trailer, to allow me to register it here, with steel piping (a requirement of German law in 2000, I don't know if the EU has changed anything since).

I sealed and tested everything to 1 Bar (14 PSI if I remember correctly) using air pressure....when the TÜV man tested it, he was amazed that it didn't lose ANY of the test double pressure in the time allowed!! Which was only 60 Millibars!!

But I still have a gas detector, just in case.......

You need to make up a solution of washing up liquid and some water and paint it over every joint or suspect area and watch for bubbles. The mixture needs to be made fairly strong, something like 1 part washing up liquid to 3 parts water is a starting point!!

Or buy and expensive leak detecting spray......

Used and maintained correctly, I still sincerely believe bottled gas is the best option for most people.....

I would like to hear more about that solar solution you have bought and how good it is, especially at night!!