Previous in Forum: Regarding GD Square   Next in Forum: Starting Heavy Load
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 431
Good Answers: 6

Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/24/2014 8:29 AM

I witnessed an interesting thing in my daughter's room last night. She has a stand fan with a four-position switch (three speeds and OFF) and a three-way touch lamp plugged into the same surge protector. I'm finding that when I switch the speed on the fan with the lamp lit, the lamp shuts off as though I touched the base.

This has to be an issue with the surge protector, right? This is more of a curiosity on my part; I'm not an engineer and typically don't endeavor to take things apart.

__________________
Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal. -Camus
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 577
Good Answers: 50
#1

Re: Touch lamps 'n fans

06/24/2014 9:43 AM

That's normal behavior for a touch switch that works with charge transfer circuits. Changing the speed of the fan with AC power source, you get a di/dt when the fan speed is changed (as your most likely not switching speed at the AC zero crossing), and this looks like a human touching the metal surface of the lamp controller, via the common AC power connection. I've seen this same issue with my same lamp setup.

I don't think this is the surge suppressor (as a fault), as this is most likely MOV's connecting the AC hot (120 VRMS relative to ground) to the protection ground of the duplex plug. There is a voltage surge caused by the inductor of the fan motor (when changing fan speed), that is L*di/dt that is the most likely cause of the triggering of the light controller.

It's possible the surge protector exacerbates this by conducting any large enough surge voltage to ground causing a differential charge transfer seen by the lamp controller circuits.

__________________
ignator -
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#4
In reply to #1

Re: Touch lamps 'n fans

06/25/2014 8:18 AM

to translate what ignator said into plain english for the layman (the OP DID say they were not an engineer and therefore probably did not understand your explanantion).

touch circuits are sensitive to transient spikes on the incoming power line. particularly the neutral side of the power line. they interpret those transient spikes as something conductive touching the lamp. motors are made up of big electrical coils and coils will 'ring" or osscillate whenever current changes in them (tuning them on, turning them off changing the voltage up or down.) causing spikes to be put back onto the line. You will see similar behavior when a squirrel decides to roast his nuts on the pole mounted transformer etc. when the lamp is plugged directly into the power outlet. a surge protector merely has three devices called an MOV or Metal Oxide Varistor wired accross the incoming power line and from neutral and the line to ground, they really don't filter the incoming power. an MOV looks like an open circuit until the voltage across the terminals exceeds a threshold voltage and then the resistance changes to a very low resistance. so all they do is short high voltage spikes to ground. but if the spike is small enough then they don't do much. better ones also have something called a spark gap arrester which is what it sounds like, a glass bulb with two electrodes and a gap between them that is filled with xenon or neon (essentially a neon bulb and often a NE-2 neon bulb is used for them instead.) in parallel with each MOV to handle higher surge currents but they don't switch "on" until the voltage is much higher so the two devices compliment each other. but MOV's can only handle so much current over their lifetime before they stop switching "on". so old surge protectors should be replaced periodically.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#2

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/24/2014 10:52 AM

...so plug the lamp in upstream of the surge protector instead, and see what happens. Do report back here, please. :-)

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada but south of 49
Posts: 895
Good Answers: 20
#5
In reply to #2

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/26/2014 8:04 AM

I would think, for this application of a lamp and a fan, why even have a surge protector. Is the power condition that unreliable?? Why introduce things that aren't needed to start with.

__________________
Never stop learning
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/27/2014 9:51 AM

Check your local hardware store, they don't MAKE any multi-outlet strips without surge protection anymore.

So unless you're going to use one of those 'outlet multiplier cubes' (which are fire hazards waiting to happen when overused, and anyone who uses those invariably plugs a second into the first, which is already overloading the outlet, then they plug a third into the second) you're going to have a surge protector on your 'power strip.'

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/27/2014 10:07 AM

I'm not sure i'd say they aren't still made. They are still made, but they aren't common any more, but even then the cheap "surge suppressor" power strips are for crap. Unless you spend more than say $20 for it, it probably is a waste of money.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/27/2014 10:18 AM

I stand corrected, the 'surge-protector-less power strips may still be made, but it's incredibly difficult to find one for sale at a retail (or wholesale) location.

And the 'crap' surge suppressors are just circuit breakers, they protect from surges the way all circuit breakers do, by opening the circuit rather than let the voltage spike reach the 'protected equipment.'

You want GOOD surge supression, that will protect the equipment from voltage spikes and dips, you plug the equipment into a UPS. We have to do that in the plant, the injection molding presses do such horrible things to the power grid inside the building that the vision system cameras NEED the UPS to protect them from being reset by a 'nano-blackout' (The lights don't even blink, but the camera loses power for one too many milliseconds and reboots to default settings when power comes back).

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/27/2014 10:34 AM

The cameras are DC powered are they not? Most industrial vision system cameras are. Consider putting a decent sized capacitor (as big as will physically fit) in paralell with say a 1 meg resistor across the DC power connector/terminal strip on the power supply in the junction box. That will help hold the voltage up if there are intermittant dips in the output power and it will filter out any large spikes and noise. Put a small value (say .47uf or so) cap across the power input connector at the camera along with a ferrite doughnut wound through the wire and use twisted pair wire between the power supply in the junction box and the camera to cut down on inductive pickup. Switchmode power supplies aren't real good about filtering noise off the output power bus, and will often add their own.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/27/2014 10:48 AM

I'll consider it if/when the systems get upgraded to where they don't need a desktop PC next to the camera for operator interface. Right now it's just easier to have the camera, computer, monitor and office-grade 4-port Switch all on a single UPS.

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#3

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/25/2014 4:21 AM

I have a similar thing at home, I have a 4 way extension lead with my PC, monitor, printer & desk lamp connected (12V halogen with integral transformer). If I switch the lamp on or off the PC makes a 'bing bong' noise as if I have connected an external device.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 431
Good Answers: 6
#6

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

06/26/2014 1:43 PM

Should've noted that the surge suppressor also hosts an entertainment center-type thing and an AC adapter for my laptop.

I appreciate the replies...I understand most everything that was said. It does seem like unplugging one device or another seems to solve the "problem." The other day a colleague mentioned that small pieces of insulated wire around his room used heat up from conducting his father's high-power ham broadcasts when he was a kid. So I wasn't sure if this was an electromagnetic induction issue or voltage thru the wiring.

__________________
Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal. -Camus
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: I live in USA, Colorado in the houses of 7 Summits
Posts: 28
#12

Re: Touch Lamps 'n Fans

07/29/2014 3:45 AM

I think it is not the fault of your surge protector. These are a common problem with touch switches. I have also seen the same issue in my lamp fan. It is because of a change in your Ac power. So speed gets changed without human touch.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 12 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

adreasler (3); Hannes (1); ignator (1); Kevin LaPaire (1); Nigh (1); PWSlack (1); Rorschach (3); ShawnHoppe (1)

Previous in Forum: Regarding GD Square   Next in Forum: Starting Heavy Load

Advertisement