Previous in Forum: 24 VAC   Next in Forum: UPS Required
Close
Close
Close
10 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: kuruman NC. SOUTH AFRICA
Posts: 51
Good Answers: 1

Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 9:51 AM

Hey All

Due to luck of spare and the criticality of the Drive/equipment in the plant, i supplied 0.75KW, 400V Motor from 11KW VSD/VFD (still waiting for the Correct size VSD). I set all the motor parameters on the VSD correctly Except the Power, the power parameter on the VSD can go up to 3KW (min), So i cannot set the 0.75KW parameter on the VSD. The motor is running, no problem up to so far.

QUESTION: What can go wrong for the fact that the power parameter setting is not correct, will the VSD be able to protect the motor?

__________________
Dan Segami
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 77
#1

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 10:36 AM

Probably not.

Make sure the fuses protect the cable!

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#2

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 10:40 AM

The VSD probably won't be able to sense overload current (say 2A) to the motor, unless there is a separate setting for overload current. Be sure to check the full menu of parameter settings. You could also run the motor wiring through a standard overload relay or motor circuit protector.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 96
Good Answers: 11
#3

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 10:41 AM

Hi Danny,

In a word:- No.

If your motor/drive train has a problem, you will probably fry the motor.

If this is very, very temporary, just keep your fingers crossed.

I have seen worse - fuses replaced with nails etc, anything to "just make it work", so I understand the pressure, but it is not a good plan. Did you consider a fixed starter as a temporary measure? Presumably "variable" is the clue you can't.

Good luck.

__________________
rogerggbr
Register to Reply
2
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#4

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 1:46 PM

It's very common for VFDs to not be programmable below 50% of the lowest current rating in a given frame size, because of what has been mentioned: the current sensors cannot be accurate in that wide of a range. You will not be able to utilize any Vector mode control, but it sounds as if you are not doing that if it is working fine, meaning you are in basic V/Hz mode. The simple solution is to just add an overload relay between the drive output and the motor, sized appropriately for the motor FLA. Then wire the trip contact of the OLR into the VFD inputs as an external enable circuit. If the OLR trips, the contact opens and turn off the drive. Make sure your drive has an E-Stop or Enable circuit that overrides any controlled Decel functions, because if the motor is overloaded, you need to remove power immediately.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: kuruman NC. SOUTH AFRICA
Posts: 51
Good Answers: 1
#5

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 3:22 PM

Thanks Guys, that was very helpfull. I will go for JRaef's Idea of adding an overload.

Can somebody please explain technically why the VSD can't protect the motor because the overload setting parameters is correctly sets on the VSD (1.85Amps)?

__________________
Dan Segami
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 5:20 PM

If it allowed you to set it that low, but does not allow you to tell the drive that the motor is any smaller than 3kW, then that is indirectly letting you know that the protection is likely compromised. Some do a better job of making that clearer than others, often times they will just not allow you to set the motor current lower, it's just a design decision at some point. There may be a tiny print footnote inside of the manual someplace that warns you of this, or tells you that you must use an external OL relay if used on a motor smaller than 3kW, everyone approaches it differently.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: kuwait
Posts: 132
Good Answers: 2
#7

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/05/2014 11:45 PM

just add an overload and feedback it to VFD/vsd as trouble input to complete shutdown.

in case if you will add an overload ,that will protect the motor only but will never stop to the vfd so it will be better to give a feedback to vfd to stop all ,good luck.

__________________
love4everyone
Register to Reply
Commentator
Australia - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mount Gambier, South Australia
Posts: 56
#8

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/06/2014 12:02 AM

Hi,

The VSD uses the kw to create a typical thermal model of the motor, using the parameters include motor FLC, kW and Voltage. Even though you can set the current the VSD most likely will not be able to correctly model you motor, and like the others have mention, it will compromise your motor protection.

Adding an external overload is a way around this, but not all overloads will work correctly on the output of a VSD. I had quite a bit of trouble running multiple motors of one large VSD and the overloads were ineffective when set to FLC. In fact we ended up setting them to 70% of FLC.

Cheers.

Trevor

__________________
tooz
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1119
Good Answers: 11
#9

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/06/2014 5:56 AM

No problem..Tornado and Jraef got my rate good answers. Just follow what they said for the motor protection, standard package 11KW VFD will not be able to sense overload, it will result a burnt motor. It might have been different if you use under rated vfd with what is on contract(0.75KW)

__________________
" To infinity and beyond" - Buzz Lightyear
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#10

Re: Bigger Variable Speed/Frequency Drive

09/08/2014 1:08 PM
  • "Adding an external overload is a way around this, but not all overloads will work correctly on the output of a VSD. I had quite a bit of trouble running multiple motors of one large VSD and the overloads were ineffective when set to FLC. In fact we ended up setting them to 70% of FLC."

To this point by the way, there is mounting evidence supporting the idea that bi-metal overload relays do not function correctly in PWM outputs of VFDs. It's not that they fail to trip, it's that they NUISANCE trip. Then because of this, users tend to "turn up the dial" to make the issue go away, but that means that there is virtually no realistic coordination of the trip curve you end up with and the true thermal damage curve of the motor windings, resulting in the loss of the motor. The point is, either live with the nuisance or use something else, don't re-engineer the relay on your own and expect the motor to be protected.

Side note, eutectic melting alloy overload relays have no issues with harmonics.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 10 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Crabtree (1); DannyD (1); JRaef (3); Noudge79 (1); rogerggbr (1); sohail0110 (1); tooz (1); Tornado (1)

Previous in Forum: 24 VAC   Next in Forum: UPS Required

Advertisement